Decline Sword Coast Legends Pre-Release Thread

[Roguey]

"Constraints are cool,"--Josh Sawyer

Of course the lack of hand-placable loot is a bullshit constraint.

 

[Lhynn]

"Constraints are cool,"--Josh Sawyer

Of course the lack of hand-placable loot is a bullshit constraint.

Give me the full quote please, because that tells me nothing.

 

[pippin]

Yeah, it doesn't really make ssense after hearing him praise 3rd edition for the exact opposite reasons.

 

[Roguey]

Give me the full quote please, because that tells me nothing.

I'm taking a break from working on stuff to play Mario Maker and good lord the level editor is the most relaxing thing to me

wan 2 try it

It's probably sad that its toolset is better than any I've ever been able to use professionally, right

it is sadly haha but it's got lots of constraints that probably helped them make it so streamlined

constraints are cool IMO

With regard to level editors, he's right. NWN2 had a more powerful toolset than NWN's, but at the expense of user friendliness, so it didn't have the mod scene the first did.

If you want a lot of people to use your editor, it has to be simple and easy to learn and understand, hence constraints.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

With regard to level editors, he's right. NWN2 had a more powerful toolset than NWN's, but at the expense of user friendliness, so it didn't have the mod scene the first did.

If you want a lot of people to use your editor, it has to be simple and easy to learn and understand, hence constraints.

I don't think you necessarily need overall constraints to have simple functionality for new users though. NWN had a simple basic editor but people who were prepared to put the time in did incredible things with scripting. SCL has far more constraints, a dumbed down basic system with random dungeons and loot, while the idea of scripting seems impossible given they can't even promise tile-by-tile editing at some stage. Many people are already frustrated with it but telling themselves the 'devs will fix it'. Sure. I think the constraints are deterring people at this point.

Agreed about the basic functions needing to be simple and easy to learn, though.

 

[Lacrymas]

I knew this game will be bullshit the minute I saw "made from the people who worked on Dragon Age", so no surprise here.

 

[Lhynn]

With regard to level editors, he's right. NWN2 had a more powerful toolset than NWN's, but at the expense of user friendliness, so it didn't have the mod scene the first did.

If you want a lot of people to use your editor, it has to be simple and easy to learn and understand, hence constraints.

I think other factors were more important than an editor with limited functionality in the nwns case. I think this guy here nails it.

nwn brought editing/modding/editor usage to the masses. it was such an easy to use editor, especially because of the tile system, that almost everybody could create their own module literally within minutes to tell their story. also bioware used a very simple mesh and animation structure which was reverse engineered just a few months (perhaps even weeks) after release. the first exporters sprang to life and the custom community was able to create new meshes and animation with free(!!!) tools. also the whole engine was outdated at release so that one could play nwn with a rather weak system.

fast forward to nwn2 and you'll notice a totally different story. to play nwn2 you needed a good pc with costly hardware. the toolset is complicated and creating outdoor areas takes days or even weeks if you want something decent. the whole process of scultping terrain and painting/blending textures is geared towards artists, and drives the common user away. till today there's no way to create custom animations without 3dsmax6-8, which cost thousands of dollars and ain't even available anymore.

If anything it was a complete lack of understanding from obsidians part when it came to modders that made it fail. Nwn2 toolset was much more demanding and time consuming.

 

[DavidBVal]

While I agree with everything being said here regarding NWN2 editor, damn, it was a good tool. A bit too complicated, yes, but looking at the tools we're given nowadays? a dream. If I had to complain, it crashed too often, but really, it allowed you to do anything, from custom races, classes, feats... Look at the Conan modules, at the PoR conversion, etc. A huge quantity of content has been produced, not to mention persistent worlds, which to my knowledge no other game/engine has allowed. In retrospect, may be the better DnD CRPG creation toolset that will ever exist. Long Life Aurora.

 

[Infinitron]

I think other factors were more important than an editor with limited functionality in the nwns case. I think this guy here nails it.

 

[Lhynn]

stuff

Constrains and ease of use are not the same thing infi.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[sser]

Exhilarating.

https://youtu.be/QPXOxhnchaQ?t=2354

 

[Hobo Elf]

Good lord.

 

[Space Insect]

I have to admit that that is a reasonably good gelatinous cube animation, but still. that combat.

 

[Infinitron]

The popamole continues:

 

[JasonNH]

A very long preview from Angry Centaur.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

A butthurt Dan O'Leary (NS CEO) appears on their forums to claim that their approach of refusing to answer questions on mechanics for months, while collecting non-refundable preorders, is a model of transparency that he's proud of. At least it seems as though refunds may be offered to the most vocal critics now, perhaps they're thinking of those Steam reviews:

Hello, all.



We have planned to share a roadmap for some time now and I first committed publicly to that several weeks before this thread even started. We will deliver it in the coming weeks, as promised. Ideally this will hit before release, which we didn't commit to but I would like to deliver on. Meanwhile at every opportunity we have indicated items as they go "on the list" of recorded feedback. We have also indicated the rare occasions when a request is just so unlikely that it won't go on the list. From the furor here perhaps we should have said nothing about our plans to share a roadmap until we released it. No, I doubt that would make people happy either.



By the way, there is a difference between a development plan, which is internal and required, and a community facing roadmap. Both must factor in post release live support, free updates, DLC and console release. We are committed to having community feedback feature highly in all of that, as we have for some time now. It would be easier to share a roadmap if we were not so open to feedback.



I would like to address a few other subjects from this thread.

• Regarding claims that we have been less than transparent - we have actively supported these forums, facebook and twitter. We do hours of twitch broadcasting each week, in which several n-Space employees answer questions as fast as we can, and we join in other games. We post news, answer emails and on and on. We have spent countless hours presenting the game to media and the gaming public, answering all questions. I'm sure we could do better but to claim we have been anything but transparent seems unreasonable to me.
• Consumer expectations of involvement have changed drastically, even during the last year of SCL's development. Where some folks have cited examples like Camelot Unchained as good models for community facing development, that is an asymmetric comparison. Consumers cannot reasonably expect the same degree of involvement in SCL (announced less than a year ago and releasing in 3 weeks) as they have in a game like CU, which will have been built almost entirely in the open for nearly 3 years (at its eventual release). Neither method is wrong and, as someone that has personally supported over 50 kickstarters, I would love to embrace even more open methods in the future. But for SCL it was not the right approach. Regardless, I am still proud of the efforts we have made to be open and available to the community given our constraints and approach. In less than one product development cycle n-Space has transformed from a work for hire development company that was contractually prohibited from talking about our games during development to where we are now. Knowing that it was unrealistic to shift the company methods, culture and expertise farther or faster we settled on this middle ground approach (not traditional box product development but also not Kickstarter). I understand that some are disappointed and want more. That doesn't mean that we have misled or misinformed.
• Expectations for this game, like all games, have varied dramatically from the beginning. There is a thread here that I often refer to, in which people share their expectations based on the coverage to date. Answers vary from a Diablo style ARPG to NWN with persistent worlds and servers to Dragon Age Origins in the Forgotten Realms. All of this based on the exact same messaging. I think this has more to do with people projecting their personal preferences than us providing confusing messaging. Even within this thread I read diametrically opposed views on what the game is, what it should be and what people want out of it. This is all fine and expected, but realize it cannot be everything to everyone. I'm happy to see that some of you already understand this and so, to an extent, I'm preaching to the choir.
• The problems encountered with network latency and bandwidth were very largely addressed for the last headstart and further progress has been made to improve the experience for players with truly terrible network connections or local wifi connections. The decision to extend by 3 weeks was just as advertised - bug fixing and final polish and tuning. The bug burn-down trends, along with internal and external feedback that led us to that decision have proved accurate and we are entirely confident the game will release on Oct 20th. We are not in "panic mode." But, as usual on the internet, we are in a no win situation - people will rage if the game is delayed, people will rage if it is released with bugs. For everyone at n-Space we were happy to have the flexibility and support of our partners that allows us to hold on to the game a bit longer, as that is ultimately in everyone's best interest.
• Ash and I meet and interact on a daily basis, usually several times a day. Likewise he and Dan Tudge are in routine discussions. There is no "powers that be." We all work together, coordinate our efforts and collaborate those with our partners at DE and WotC.
• The full revised headstart plan was agreed upon before the Oct 20th date was announced. The delay in communicating it came down to getting approvals from everyone involved. We apologize for that confusion.

I hope that clears some things up.



If you are one of the few accusing n-Space of lying or intentionally misleading, please feel free to message me directly. I will happily and personally see that you are refunded your full purchase amount. You see, my personal integrity and that of the company that I built over the last 20+ years means a lot more to me than the price of your purchase.



Best,

- Dan / n-Space

 

[Infinitron]

Oh god, look at the responses to that.

lol this one is great though: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index...ould-be-announced-before-the-release/?p=54267

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Yes, p nauseating. Hadn't checked those forums for a while but it seems as though it's just the fanboys left there now. One poster warns "don't only listen to your most vocal fans" but it seems that's the way it's going. Final release should be drama given how many problems they still seem to have with the game.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh look, he made an entire thread: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index.php?/topic/5337-a-disgraceopen-letter-to-danny-boy/

 

[Immortal]

Oh look, he made an entire thread: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index.php?/topic/5337-a-disgraceopen-letter-to-danny-boy/

Let me explain something to you DAN..

 

[ArchAngel]

Lol those topics are pure gold. I love how the CEO then descends into quote by quote argument with a random forum person like it is a passionate argument on Codex. These guys are totally crazy! First they hide critical information for months and then present themselves as idiots 20 days before release on their own forums. LOL

 

[pippin]

This is getting tragic. How can you be so delusional?

 

[ArchAngel]

If you think that role-playing with a live DM is closer to Diablo than D&D there is something very wrong with your perception.

Role-playing with a live DM is the heart and soul of D&D everything else is just some sytem to "streamline" gameplay.

Sword Coast Legends delivers nicely on the "all-new way to enjoy the time-tested magic of playing Dungeons & Dragons as a shared storytelling experience".

You may not like the game for a variety of reasons, but claiming it's not D&D only shows you have no clue what D&D actually is.

Look at this try hard butt licker. According to him D&D is only roleplaying game ? So roleplaying with a live DM is playing D&D? Realy?
Maybe someone should educate him that D&D started as a tabletop wargame and never really left those roots. Roleplay was added on top of that and it created a special mix of a roleplay game that gathered more people than any other roleplay game. That mix is the root of D&D, not live DM. 90% of PnP games have a live DM. Some people...

 

[Space Insect]

Oh look, he made an entire thread: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index.php?/topic/5337-a-disgraceopen-letter-to-danny-boy/

I support him for having the courage to bring the name of Gygax into that. Even though the fanboys raged at the use, I bet the developers have never opened a 1st edition rulebook.