Decline Sword Coast Legends Pre-Release Thread

[Shin]

They will have the sense to include some kind of hardcore mode though right? .... right?

 

[Konflyto]

They will have the sense to include some kind of hardcore mode though right? .... right?

Maybe in that extra extra deluxe edition or DLC, right after the new tiles and extra races.. All for extra fun! Hope they inclusde some 5th edition in the game too

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

They had the sense to make companion specific sub forums; presumably to index all fan fiction.

 

[DavidBVal]

Level scaling... in a D&D game?

Have these people ever played D&D before?

BG2 has level scaling in the random encounters, and some older good RPGs did as well. Level scaling can work... if kept under control, within brackets, and if it makes sense. However, it always pays a price, in terms of erasing the suspension of disbelief of the player, so when you use level scaling, you better have a very clear idea on why you are doing it and what you get in exchange that is so important. Example: Morrowind can be so open and allow free roaming because of level scaling. Loses something, wins something.

But... this game? it's just scaling level so everybody feels powerful, what Telengard calls the Power Fantasy. It enables nothing, it just makes sure no one is frustrated and leaves the game.

Normally I wouldn't care about just another bad game, but I really wanted to play 5th edition and I'm really pissed this will be the next D&D "Flagship" game. I hope this crashes badly and makes an example.

 

[Delterius]

BG2 has level scaling in the random encounters, and some older good RPGs did as well. Level scaling can work... if kept under control, within brackets, and if it makes sense.

Example: Morrowind can be so open and allow free roaming because of level scaling. Loses something, wins something.

Neither game has level scaling in the actual sense since in neither do rewards or creature stats change according to PC's power. Morrowind scales next to nothing while BG2 changes encounters according to total experience. This isn't about power fantasy either, this is about doing away with any sort of gameplay that requires a comprehension of the rules, ie min/maxing. Its a change in form from older RTwP titles like BG2, not substance.

 

[DavidBVal]

Neither game has level scaling in the actual sense since in neither do rewards or creature stats change according to PC's power. Morrowind scales next to nothing while BG2 changes encounters according to total experience.

Man, what are you saying. In BG2 your power is determined by XP, because your casters' level is what makes a difference. The game spits at you a wraith OR a lich depending on your level, if that's not level scaling then what is it...

 

[Semper]

Level scaling... in a D&D game?

Have these people ever played D&D before?

not to say that scl is any good, but there's a chapter about improving creatures in every monster manual included. level scaling is a dm's bread and butter.

 

[Delterius]

Man, what are you saying. In BG2 your power is determined by XP, because your casters' level is what makes a difference. The game spits at you a wraith OR a lich depending on your level, if that's not level scaling then what is it...

The lich doesn't exist, its as strong as a xvart or as demogorgon, depending on the need. Oblivion style. If you stretch the meaning of level scaling further, you might as well call all encounter design level scaling, and then you have to define what is good and bad level scaling and blargh.

 

[DavidBVal]

The lich doesn't exist, its as strong as a xvart or as demogorgon, depending on the need. Oblivion style. If you stretch the meaning of level scaling further, you might as well call all encounter design level scaling, and then you have to define what is good and bad level scaling and blargh.

I didn't pretend to start a philosophical debate. Level scaling in BG2 and in Elder Scrolls is a reality, and despite criticism on those games or whatever, those games are not inkloosive pieces of shit like this one, so my point was that level-scaling by itself is not the culprit of this epic failure here.

 

[Delterius]

those games are not inkloosive pieces of shit like this one

Ever played any Elder Scrolls past Morrowind, like the ones that actually have level scaling?

 

[DavidBVal]

Ever played any Elder Scrolls past Morrowind, like the ones that actually have level scaling?

I played 1 to 5 and finished them all except Arena (couldn't beat the ending). Oblivion and Skyrim level scaling sucks, but it could be modded, and then it was decent. Also, some enemies had minimum hardcoded power, like the dragon priests. I didn't like level scaling in Oblivion/Skyrim at all, so I won't defend it here, my point is that level scaling can be a tool that works, if kept under control and used properly. There's many other examples. wizardry 8.

 

[hoverdog]

I didn't pretend to start a philosophical debate. Level scaling in BG2 and in Elder Scrolls is a reality, and despite criticism on those games or whatever, those games are not inkloosive pieces of shit like this one, so my point was that level-scaling by itself is not the culprit of this epic failure here.

it's a different kind of scaling. If BG had one like this POS or Oblivion, you could meet a lich with 5 HP and whole two magic missiles in his arsenal, and a epic level xvart with greater whirlwind.

 

[Bubbles]

Nice discussion of the companion AI going on here:

There has to be a way to tell the AI to stop casting abilities, including wasting my own characters abilities without me actually telling the computer to do this?

For example, it keeps wasting my Victorious Surge (a melee attack that also heals the person using) for my character and Jarhild even when we are at full health. I obviously want to save these abilities for when I have lost a bit of health. It also wastes Illydia big heals when I have barely taken damage, etc. etc. It took me a bit to realize it was even doing this, but yeah, it's even casting MY characters abilities? What? Why? Stop touching MY character and casting MY abilities automatically, at ALL the wrong times.

How do I tell these AI to stop using any abilities at all unless I tell them to?

I don't believe there is any control over the changing the AI preferences at this point and time.

That is literally insane. The fact that the AI casts whatever it wants, whenever it wants, is crazy enough.

The fact that the AI casts MY characters abilities whenever it wants is a game breaker. Like, it's casting my only ability my rogue has to heal when I am at full health, it's casting my sleep ability on one spider when there is a pack of mobs across the room. I don't want it to do ANY of this, especially with the lengthy cooldowns on these abilities.

This changes my entire opinion of the game. If the solo campaign works like this...I just don't even know what to say.

If you select the "hold" hand, your party will only do what you tell them to do and will not auto-attack.

When you select this option, you have to watch for party members doing nothing. They won't even defend themselves and just stand there thumb twiddling.

The SCL forums have taken on quite a dramatic tone lately, which I find very enjoyable to read.

In other news:

n-space can only hope that mainstream gamers will take a different view of this issue.

 

[DavidBVal]

it's a different kind of scaling. If BG had one like this POS or Oblivion, you could meet a lich with 5 HP and whole two magic missiles in his arsenal, and a epic level xvart with greater whirlwind.

I know. That's why my point is, it can be done right or wrong. Jaesun seemed to imply ALL level scaling is always crap. Now don't drag me into semantics, folks. By level scaling I mean the content scales up/down to your level somewhow, and that includes spawning a Golden Saint instead of a Cliff Racer. If the game adapts the difficulty level to your power level, that is level scaling. Obviously it can be a valid design choice, in the case of BG2 or Morrowind, or it can be a retarded cheapo way to have more content, like simply making a lich level 1 or a kobold level 30 which I'm afraid is the best thing these SCL unity-script-kiddies could manage.

 

[ArchAngel]

I know. That's why my point is, it can be done right or wrong. Jaesun seemed to imply ALL level scaling is always crap. Now don't drag me into semantics, folks. By level scaling I mean the content scales up/down to your level somewhow, and that includes spawning a Golden Saint instead of a Cliff Racer. If the game adapts the difficulty level to your power level, that is level scaling. Obviously it can be a valid design choice, in the case of BG2 or Morrowind, or it can be a retarded cheapo way to have more content, like simply making a lich level 1 or a kobold level 30 which I'm afraid is the best thing these SCL unity-script-kiddies could manage.

What BG games had was not level scaling but encounter scaling. It is very different. All level scaling is just terrible.

 

[DavidBVal]

What BG games had was not level scaling but encounter scaling. It is very different. All level scaling is just terrible.

If you define level scaling as, altering your enemies' level to match the PC's level, without altering the enemy type and powers, then yes, it is terrible.

I define level scaling as any adjustment the game makes to match the PC's level. And I'd say it's the most commonly used definition around, as we use also "level scaling" for loot, and last time I checked items didn't have a level.

Semantics. We all agree here, I think.

 

[ArchAngel]

Maybe but I don't want pathetic level scaling to be brought near my BG games

What is happening in BG is what has been happening in D&D since the begining and it was always about encounter design. Calling it what it is, encounter scaling, is the right thing to do. BG games just did what DMs have been doing for 30 years, placing challenging encounters for the players by using stronger types of enemies instead of just increasing few numbers

 

[Delterius]

I define level scaling as any adjustment the game makes to match the PC's level. And I'd say it's the most commonly used definition around, as we use also "level scaling" for loot, and last time I checked items didn't have a level.

That is called encounter design: adequate and varied challenge versus the PC's level of power. What BG2 does is design multiple layers of encounter tables that are reactive to the PC's power, it does not however Scale its content -- such as its Beastiary or Inventory -- to the PC's power. This goes back to the Codex's motto of not scaling to your level and how the term Level Scaling is pejorative. Outside the Codex demands to introduce Level Scaling are imbued of a culture that demands 'optimal' (non-existant) levels of challenge as they explore the world, even as they concede to level brackets in an open world, which Skyrim already does.

 

[animlboogy]

Is there any context where level scaling -- not encounter scaling -- has ever had a positive effect on a game? I can't think of a single one where it didn't lead to mind-numbingly boring encounters.

Oblivion's the most egregious example, with OOO as a proof of concept that even that shit game can be improved by gutting scaling entirely and putting in placed encounters.

Why do developers keep doing this?

 

[Roguey]

Level scaling in open world or open-ish games allows one to go in (almost) any direction from the start, which is a demand a lot of players have.

By now everyone's figured out that the best approach is to have higher floors in certain areas, i.e. these areas scale from 1-whatever (could be capped, but maybe not), and these scale from 5-whatever, etc.

 

[Reinhardt]

Best moment in Lords of Xulima was when i missed whole map with first Witch and found it later with my 30+ lvl party. Sweet revenge. Poor bees.

 

[Bubbles]

Problems with the community rating system:

Currently, if you upload your module for everyone to play, then go to the module list and download it, you can then rate it. You give it 5 stars (because we all know our own module is 5 star worthy) and it jumps to the front of the list for all to see, download and play.

Here is where it gets skewed; If someone plays your module and rates it poorly, it gets bumped out of the top of the list and to go mingle with all the other 4 star or less modules.

However, if you edit the module and make any changes what so ever, let's say add a crate to a room. and then save it, you can then update the module, re-download the updated module and it wipes the previous ratings away allow you to again give it 5 stars and bumping it back to the top of the list again.

You can do this non-stop to keep your module in the 5 star ratings, hence on the first page of the module listings which means people will see it first and more than likely, download it and play it before any of the other 4 star or less rated modules.

You can also download every other 5 star module, rate it poorly without ever playing it, effectively knocking them down to a lower rating (this is the biggest issue in my opinion).

 

[pippin]

Deactivating companion AI is the proper way to play any real time party based rpg.

 

[ArchAngel]

Lol @ rating system. This game is terrible in so many ways. They could not even make a proper DM + 4 players MP core experience which was their focus.
I will enjoy all the butthurt and steam refunds topics after the release.

At this rate I expect SP campaign to be super broken at release.

 

[Mustawd]

Nice discussion of the companion AI going on here:











The SCL forums have taken on quite a dramatic tone lately, which I find very enjoyable to read.

In other news:

n-space can only hope that mainstream gamers will take a different view of this issue.

dude, there's not even 100 people on this poll. Drama is good and all, especially this thread, but I seriously doubt n-Space gives a flying fuck about 100 or so nerds on the internet.