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Tasteful Understated Nerdrage/MrBtongue Thread

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He's talking about non-linear story-telling.

No, not quite. He's talking about the portrayal of a game's setting as a complex, non-linear machine with many moving parts, coming together to give the appearance of a consistent, plausible world.

It's true that one of the ways in which players can get to investigate such a setting is via non-linear gameplay mechanics. In Mass Effect, it's going right instead of left to speak to the Volus and Elkor ambassadors. In Fallout New Vegas, you have more freedom.

But the point is that both games allows you to experience the fullness of a rich setting, beyond the bare minimum required to tell the game's plot (which itself may or may not be linear).
 

Grunker

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He's talking about non-linear story-telling.

No, not quite. He's talking about the portrayal of a game's setting as a complex, non-linear machine with many moving parts, coming together to give the appearance of a consistent, plausible world.

Then the comparison to Tristram Shandy is wrong. Shandy is about non-linear stories that explore distractions and causality between events. It's not vastness and exploration of setting, an entirely different thing.
 

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I'm not sure what "vastness" has to do with it. I'm not talking about physical exploration of a world. You can learn a lot about a setting just from talking to NPCs in a single room. Again, see the Volus and Elkor.

That said, I haven't read Tristram Shandy, so I don't know. I guess the way he understands it is that Tristram Shandy's life is the book's setting.
 

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He's talking about non-linear story-telling.

No, not quite. He's talking about the portrayal of a game's setting as a complex, non-linear machine with many moving parts, coming together to give the appearance of a consistent, plausible world.

Then the comparison to Tristram Shandy is wrong. Shandy is about non-linear stories that explore distractions and causality between events. It's not vastness and exploration of setting, an entirely different thing.
I agree. The video should have been a few minutes longer, allowing for mechanics to enter the discussion. Otherwise the term doesn't seem to fit. Then again, I'm not big on english literature.
 

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I'm not sure what "vastness" has to do with it. I'm not talking about physical exploration of a world. You can learn a lot about a setting just from talking to NPCs in a single room. Again, see the Volus and Elkor.

That said, I haven't read Tristram Shandy, so I don't know. I guess the way he understands it is that Tristram Shandy's life is the book's setting.

Which is why I would argue he mixes story and setting in a way I'm not quite sure is entirely correct. Setting is the 'where', story is the 'how'. These can intertwine, no doubt, but they're not the same thing at all.

Mass Effect is a story about one man/woman saving the world - this linear story is told through cinematics and is totally seperate from the detailed and open setting. Conversely, New Vegas' story is told through shandified mechanics in a simiarly detailed and open setting.

The stories of the two games are incomparable.
 

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With little thought given, I'd say the argument is sound. Can't think of scenarios where the exploration of the setting isn't or shouldn't be part of the story. That is, aside from Gameplay and Story Segregation which, while quite possibly by design, isn't desirable. Ever.
 

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He's talking about non-linear story-telling.

No, not quite. He's talking about the portrayal of a game's setting as a complex, non-linear machine with many moving parts, coming together to give the appearance of a consistent, plausible world.

Then the comparison to Tristram Shandy is wrong. Shandy is about non-linear stories that explore distractions and causality between events. It's not vastness and exploration of setting, an entirely different thing.
I agree. The video should have been a few minutes longer, allowing for mechanics to enter the discussion.

My point exactly. I don't mind that he doesn't use the Codex' terminology, like C&C, I mind that he doesn't discuss mechanics at all and their role in the point he's trying to make.
 

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This is an interesting discussion. Let's send him a link to it and see if we can get him to participate or at least react.
 

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This is an interesting discussion. Let's send him a link to it and see if we can get him to participate or at least react.

Sure. If he's able to handle the relative 'toughness' of Codex debates. I did call the video retarded ;)
 

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TUN's Elder Scrolls video pin points him as a 'storyfag'. Meaning that he approaches things in a way that is 'backwards' when compared to most of us, 'we' give more importance to the Storytelling/Mechanics, whereas he makes a bigger deal out of the Story itself. But as someone who likes to be holistic and shit, I'd argue that his argument, Story = Setting, ties well with ours of Mechanics = Story.

This is an interesting discussion. Let's send him a link to it and see if we can get him to participate or at least react.

Sure. If he's able to handle the relative 'toughness' of Codex debates. I did call the video retarded ;)

Well, he would be entering the circle-jerk so he should put his Cloak of Fire Resistance on.
 

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I watched his video and enjoyed it, but I have to agree with Grunker's points as well.

Shandification, as MrBtongue is using it, seems to imply not so much non-linear narrative as it does a narrative that is free from typical conventions of authoriship. When telling a story, we usually think in terms of A->B->C->D; that is, events which take place one after another and in sequence to create a dramatic arc that we relate to and (hopefully) enjoy. He said as much in the video. Shandification, as he is using it, doesn't refer to the fact that the story doesn't take place one scene to the next, in an intended order, but rather that the audience is responsible for creating a story themselves out of disparate elements, based on the context in which they are experienced. In other words the authorship of the author is diminished because his/her role is less about telling a story and more about enabling the audience to create its own.

This is why Grunker bringing up gameplay mechanics, such as choice & consequence, is important. While New Vegas and Fallout 3 are equally non-linear, New Vegas does a much better job not so much because of the consistency of the setting itself, but because the consistency of the setting is reflected in the player's actions, and the setting remains consistent with what the player does within it.

Here's another way of demonstrating the difference: Grand Theft Auto IV is a non-linear game, outside of the story missions. You can go anywhere and do nearly anything you want. The setting is also exceptionally well-realized: you have multiple TV channels with literally hours of programming, radio stations with even more hours of music and talk programs, and let's not forget that there is even a simulated version of the goddamn Internet. The way people in the street behave, the way cars look and drive, and those story missions have a great cast of entertaining characters - this all speaks to our understanding of a modern American urban center, so much so I would argue GTA IV has by far the most well-realized contemporary city setting of any videogame.

But, the world itself doesn't change based on what you do. Cause a massive car crash in a location? Drive away and come back after a few minutes, and it's like you were never there. Shoot up a shopping center? You won't hear about it on TV or radio. Base jump off a skyscraper? Nobody in the world will take notice. Grand Theft Auto has gameplay systems that allow for incredible freedom, but it does not have mechanics which are able to tie setting and story to those other systems; as a result the world feels shallow and the impact of your actions is lessened. Whether this makes for a better or worse game, of course, depends on what the goals of the developer are as well as the demands of the audience.

The point about "what do they eat" at the end is a good one, but it's misplaced. While it does highlight the consistency of the setting rather well, and it fits into the non-linear reactive narrative the player will be experiencing throughout the game, as it's not really a character, event or indeed story in and of itself, it is not a very good example for proving his argument - even though I think his argument is a sound one. This is a topic that demands much more detailed discussion than he was able to provide.
 

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I agree that he should have provided more examples of his point besides "what do they eat", but I still think what he was arguing in favor of in this video was not really related to narratives per se. I saw it as an argument in favor of complex, multifaceted settings.

It's true though that by saying that "story and setting are the same thing" he really confused his own point.
 

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He's calling Mass Effect an Open World game with a Non-Linear Narrative :lol:

At least he likes New Vegas better than Fallout 3... Except he does so because it's more consistent in its setting, not because of better non-linear mechanics, factions and C&C.

That video was full of derp and more hipster than any ErrantSignal video I've ever seen.

The basic argument he makes: Games should be more non-linear. They become that by having consistent settings.

L-O-Fucking-L

I generally agree with that statement, although I would say consistent setting is but one of many elements creating non-linearity. By being consistent with the setting they portray game *provide some grounds for* genuine C&C. As a result our actions radiate throughout the narrative in credible fashion creating life-like consistent effects. It would be cool if e.g. in Skyrim the general dumbfuckery of the player bit him in the arse as the world believeably reacted to player's actions.

The problem is, in his arguments, MrBtongue confuses on additional "fluff" with narrative action - the "extras" fleshing out the setting he himself ascribes to books and movies (08:45) are exactly what you get in ME1. By visiting the Volus guy in ME1 he changes nothing in the narrative so there is no non-linearity. Unfortunately he is not big on the idea of the gameplay itself providing the story and shaping the paths the player can take. He is a little bit of a LARPer, albeit one with a couple of good points.
 

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He's talking about non-linear story-telling.

No, not quite. He's talking about the portrayal of a game's setting as a complex, non-linear machine with many moving parts, coming together to give the appearance of a consistent, plausible world.

Then the comparison to Tristram Shandy is wrong. Shandy is about non-linear stories that explore distractions and causality between events. It's not vastness and exploration of setting, an entirely different thing.
I think what he actually was driving at is that the player can create his own narrative from the elements of the game. It doesn't matter if the game's "story" is linear, as long as the player can have non-linear experiences. Since this all ties back to Tristram Shady it makes perfect sense. Shandy is a book, it is linear by definition. The idea is that all the disparate elements comes together and create something unique to the player. So I think the problem here is that he talks about non-linearity at all, since that does not seem to be what his video or shandification is about.

Ugh, that's a mess of a paragraph, but I don't feel like fixing it.

From the things he describes I would say shandification of a video game means that the player can piece together experiences through his own initiative to create his own narrative which may or may not have much to do with the game's narrative. Or as Mrowak put it, LARPing. Edit: All though not quite fair in this case. Yes talking to the Volus and the Elcor doesn't affect the game, but it does affect the player's experience.

Now he spends so long on "what do they eat?" because for this to work the setting has to work. Everything has to make sense so that when the player experiences something, it fits in with everything else the player has experienced so his personal narrative is something that makes sense and isn't an experiment in surreal story telling.


The next step from this would be that player can drive the game's narrative, or something we like to call choices and consquences.
 

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I felt it would be only natural for him to continue his argumentation with the nature of C&C and game giving player levers to push and manipulate to let game know how it should change and react. But he gone a different route instead, about how can setting and story seamlessly merge into another for more interactive experience. It seemed like a good beginning, but then... video just ended. :?

He seems like a story/settingfag though, so maybe he just experiences everything through the looking glass of the narrative.

Still I like his argumentation. It may be not "our" way, as he never seems to look under the hood and tell something practical, but it's good theorization on a nature of gaming.
Love it, want more. And it seems next video could be about mindless violence and dumb NPCs always wanting to die. Thing which bothers me in games on personal level since forever.
 

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Grunker MrBTongue has responded to me on Youtube

Hey - thanks for watching - I read the thread, interesting stuff. There's too much stuff in there for me to respond to all of it. I can try to respond to a couple general things:

On the definition of "story" I use for the purposes of the video: the "main" stories of both Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are linear, it's true. You complete specific setpieces in a specific order to progress each story. However, the "main" story isn't the shandified one. The shandified one is the one that contains all of the various side-trips made to this place or that one. To me, the distinction between the "main" story and my personal one has no implicit hierarchy of importance.

On "story-driven shooters": I mentioned them in passing while talking about something else. They are not my ideal genre at all.

On overall tone: The first video I made in the midst of the fallout from ME3's ending, when I got the impression that Bioware was in the midst of shutting out criticism, and so were some in the media. I wanted to play up how good the rest of ME3 was in contrast to the ending. Of course, ME3 had its share of problems even before the ending, but I thought a conciliatory tone would draw a bigger audience. Maybe it was a mistake, who knows. But I've tried to keep that same tone in general since then.
 

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My response to him:

Oh, it sounds like you read the _entire_ thread. I was just talking about our responses to your most recent video actually, but well done.

But that brings us back to something that people in that thread brought up. If what you're talking about in the video is merely "non-linear narrative", then what does New Vegas's farmland and "What do they eat" have to do with that???

That's not narrative at all. It's setting detail.
 

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I think there's one way this can make sense. For a example: Skyrim's story, I think, is in this uncanny valley where the main quest isn't elaborate enough to stand on its own, at the same time that there's not 'autheur enforcement' on part of the writers. Meaning that the sidequests and shit are on the same level as the main quest, leading to the game framing itself like 'Pokémon' or any other tv show - you've got the Main Quest, becoming Master Pokémon, but the side content, the Filler Episodes, end up being part of the main narrative. I don't know, but is FO3 anything like that?

Further, I think its all well and good to keep a moderate tone in Youtube. Which is why that video 'the dumbing down of the Elder Scrolls' is so retarded, by demeaning 'casual players' as a whole, the creator is merely extending the circle jerk to a public forum - meaning that only those that agree with him will ever consider his opinion.

I also just woke up, by the way.
 

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I think there's one way this can make sense. For a example: Skyrim's story, I think, is in this uncanny valley where the main quest isn't elaborate enough to stand on its own, at the same time that there's not 'autheur enforcement' on part of the writers. Meaning that the sidequests and shit are on the same level as the main quest, leading to the game framing itself like 'Pokémon' or any other tv show - you've got the Main Quest, becoming Master Pokémon, but the side content, the Filler Episodes, end up being part of the main narrative. I don't know, but is FO3 anything like that?

FO3 MQ is shit.
The only worthwhile thing about it is watching a giant robot blast away enclave troops while shouting anti-communist slogans.

There are no factions, just small side-quests so the MQ towers the rest in size and scope. FO3 is best enjoyed hiking around and exploring, and sticking to the small quests. I only do the MQ when I'm done with the character.
 
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I'm not sure what "vastness" has to do with it. I'm not talking about physical exploration of a world. You can learn a lot about a setting just from talking to NPCs in a single room. Again, see the Volus and Elkor.

That said, I haven't read Tristram Shandy, so I don't know. I guess the way he understands it is that Tristram Shandy's life is the book's setting.

Which is why I would argue he mixes story and setting in a way I'm not quite sure is entirely correct. Setting is the 'where', story is the 'how'. These can intertwine, no doubt, but they're not the same thing at all.

Mass Effect is a story about one man/woman saving the world - this linear story is told through cinematics and is totally seperate from the detailed and open setting. Conversely, New Vegas' story is told through shandified mechanics in a simiarly detailed and open setting.

The stories of the two games are incomparable.

I agree in general, but it's worth noting that there's some writing styles where the setting acts very much like a character (the famous literary example is Heart of Darkness, but the same comment is routinely made about Stephen King novels). I'd place the first Fallout (for the first part of the game, the setting is also the antagonist), Morrowind (because there's so much emphasis upon all the little mysteries told by conflicting unreliable sources) and Silent Hill 2 (for obvious reasons - same applies to SH3 regardless of the game's lesser quality).

New Vegas treads the boundaries of that writing style - it comes closer to making the setting a character than any other FO game since FO1 (FO3 really tries to do this, but the theme park design stops it working). If you kept all the people and factions and story branches the same, but took away the setting of a western frontier where moral governance/society is much more difficult than in the heartlands of NCR/Vault City/etc from FO2, the plot itself would be different. Without the setting as a force making civilised+centralised government so difficult, NCR would be outright villainous in their corruption and CL would be utterly incomprehensible (as it is, the game does show government/moral corruption/social decay all around, and presents CL as a response to that, but I don't think they pulled off what they should have had on paper - the idea of a brutal and unashamedly imperialistic/militaristic dictatorship formed on the same justifications that Julius Ceasar gave when dissolving the Roman Republic: that as nice as the democratic senate seemed in theory, the conditions has made such governance unsustainable in the face of rampant corruption and the need for survival (not saying either Julius Ceasar or CL was correct - but if it wasn't retarded for Julius, and even if wrong it wasn't retarded, they should have been able to present CL in a way that made their philosophy more plausible). Mr House would be the unquestioned good guy, as he's the only one both keeping the peace AND not slaughtering towns...without the setting his responsibility for maintaining a New Vegas that acts as a destabilising + corrupting force wouldn't be there.

I'm still not sure that it quite fits - there's a difference between a plot being dependent upon a setting, and a setting acting as a character within the plot (albeit a rather fine one), but it's definitely close.
 

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Grunker He responded to my response:

Part of the confusion might come from my terms. I talk about story being setting and vice versa in the video, but if I use the word "story" too many sentences in a row it starts to sound weird, so I substitute "narrative" instead. Consider them to be synonyms for the purposes of my response:

Basically, story is setting and vice versa. So when I wander into a town and wonder what they eat, that (for me) is part of the story. And when I don't find an answer the story becomes implausible, just as if my Liam Neeson-voiced father were suddenly able to fly or something with no explanation.

(As an aside, I'm aware that there are possible explanations from what people eat in Megaton. But they're not immediately accessible to the player)

If Fallout 3 were a movie, the town of Megaton wouldn't be such an issue - but since it's a game and I'm allowed to wander around freely, the question "why on earth would anyone build a town right next to a live nuke" disrupts my experience. Finding something implausible in the setting is just as disruptive as finding something implausible in the "main" story.
 

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