Codex Review TC Retrospective: X-COM: Apocalypse

[Average Manatee]

Which ones? Some of them are merciless murdertools, and some of those you even get from the very start. The only really terrible gun that I can name is the starting sniper rifle - there's no use for that piece of shit whatsoever.

It's got use. Aesthetics.

Energy sniper rifle has a use - it gives really high accuracy stat gains for some reason, especially dual wielding in RTwP. Also energy weapons are nice for poppers, which can show up in the first week if you are doing good.

All energy weapons are gimped. Plasma pistol is weaker than in EU, laser is pathetic, disruptor gun is weaker than plasma pistol from EU, Devastator cannon is much weaker than heavy plasma from EU.

To make things worse, human agents have starting health of 40-50 instead of 25-40 like in EU. Which means that besides the initial gimping, weapon damages are effectively 1,6x smaller.

I disagree as far as disruptor guns and devastator weapons being gimped - they are still pretty potent. Lasers and plasma being 'gimped' makes sense because they are starting guns that are omnipresent, cheap and easy as hell to loot.

And in regard to the second thing, this is where the 'problem' with Apoc lies, not really with the guns themselves, and I noted it as well in the article. The agents are just more beefy all around, including stats and starting gear (seriously, that megapol armour is crazy good), and get even more beefy as the game goes on, particularly due to the personal shields. The shields, in fact, are what perhaps breaks the game the most, and what makes the devastator cannons feel gimped compared to heavy plasmas. If the aliens had a shield-ignoring equivalent of the toxgun, X-COM agents would be in much bigger trouble. But they don't, so they don't, to quote a classic.

It's a problem stemming from the RTwP system. Since every battle turns into a hectic shootout having UFO:EU-babbies that die with 1 hit would basically make RTwP impossible. Heavy armor is pretty much the only thing keeping your soldiers alive in RT while in TB you can literally go naked and actually be better off because blitzing the map in 2-3 turns with the extra TUs you have from not being weighed down is a powerful option.

 

[Whisky]

Which ones? Some of them are merciless murdertools, and some of those you even get from the very start. The only really terrible gun that I can name is the starting sniper rifle - there's no use for that piece of shit whatsoever.

It's got use. Aesthetics.

Energy sniper rifle has a use - it gives really high accuracy stat gains for some reason, especially dual wielding in RTwP. Also energy weapons are nice for poppers, which can show up in the first week if you are doing good.

I guess that's one positive thing. Still doesn't change that it's completely useless for its intended purpose as a weapon though.

 

[Average Manatee]

Sniping in general sucks in Apoc. Changing the accuracy mechanics to simply being an aperture, causing enemies 2x as far away to be 2x as hard to hit, makes aimed shooting at long range useless compared to simply getting closer or shooting faster but less accurately.

A similar situation can be seen in JA2 vs. 1.13 with the new aiming system. Vanilla was massively biased towards single long-ranged high accuracy shots, while the 1.13 altered accuracy system makes you always want to burst and autofire at mid range.

 

[Norfleet]

A similar situation can be seen in JA2 vs. 1.13 with the new aiming system. Vanilla was massively biased towards single long-ranged high accuracy shots, while the 1.13 altered accuracy system makes you always want to burst and autofire at mid range.

I'm not sure this is necessarily WRONG, though. This IS how real combat works, people don't field squads of nothing but snipers because you DO generally want to fight this way.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

TNo, it's both guns and armour. If guns weren't gimped, megapol armour wouldn't help much to non-HP-bloated soldiers. If devastator cannon would have stats of a heavy plasma or higher, it would take down shield with one shot.

Yes, but consider how much CHEAPER it is for an agent to fire a shot in Apoc. Compared to original X-Com, where an agent can get maybe 2 or 3 good shots, firing a Devastator cannon costs some much smaller fraction of your TU. The standard machine gun is still the best until your AP gets too high, though. 1 TU per shot, so a 70-odd AP agent can hose something down with about 70 bullets, which is enough to chew through anything at point blank and bombard even long-range enemies with enough lead to maim or kill.

It removes the whole instant-kill factor of UE, though (could make a difference for example for taking down a rocket launcher dude). Shooting costs are seriously weird due to lack of distinction of aiming time and rate of fire.
Though for example in GURPS you'd still get high weapon damages even with high RoF.

From what i remember, the project was huge, and due to cuts in the budget they had to hurry the launch, thats why its so unbalanced. Still a flawed gem for me, and i would still play it.

No, it wasn't a question of budget. The game was so large and complicated that it wasn't possible to QA. They intended multiple alien dimensions. It was simply impossible to test.

 

[Average Manatee]

A similar situation can be seen in JA2 vs. 1.13 with the new aiming system. Vanilla was massively biased towards single long-ranged high accuracy shots, while the 1.13 altered accuracy system makes you always want to burst and autofire at mid range.

I'm not sure this is necessarily WRONG, though. This IS how real combat works, people don't field squads of nothing but snipers because you DO generally want to fight this way.

It's less wrong if you do it right, but far worse if you do it wrong. And Apoc gets it very, very wrong. The MG in Apoc might as well be a melee weapon in turn based mode, its the only way you'll use it.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I don't think infrastructure actually gets rebuilt ever. At least not major things, most maps have some major bridges that will get destroyed almost immediately by gangs if not aliens and permanently screw up the traffic. One of my bigger complaints about the city map aside from road vehicles being useless.

P. sure all support structures like people tubes and roads get rebuilt in time. Buildings are a bit trickier from what I've noticed - I nuked one temple of the Cult of Sirius to the ground and it popped up again eventually, but there was a slum (owned by Diablo, I think) that was busted at some point by someone (not me, so it could have been aliens, maybe) and I believe it didn't get reconstructed.

 

[Average Manatee]

I've definitely never seen people tubes get rebuilt, and its pretty obvious since it screws with your people transportation. But I've never let the game drag on after neutering the alien presence, so it's possible there's some kind of money factor they will eventually build up enough to restore it.

 

[Norfleet]

It's less wrong if you do it right, but far worse if you do it wrong. And Apoc gets it very, very wrong. The MG in Apoc might as well be a melee weapon in turn based mode, its the only way you'll use it.

Wait, what? The MG in Apoc is my favorite weapon, the ONLY human weapon I use, and it's most certainly NOT merely a melee weapon. The hard part is securing enough ammo for it, which requires lots and lots of stunraiding as there is practically no ammo on the market. I love that gun. Sure, its accuracy isn't terrific, but it can unload SO MANY BULLETS that this doesn't even matter. Its potential for collateral damage is also quite low, unlike heavier weapons capable of levelling entire buildings. A single trooper can easily send two magazines worth of ammo downrange in a single turn. No alien survives. One or two troopers with them can empty an entire room of half a dozen aliens in a stream of lead. The more target-rich your environment, the better that gun is! 1 TU a shot? Yes, please!

Long range, short range, shields, no shields, this weapon does it all. At long range, you can still expect to hit things due to the sheer volume of lead it unloads. At short range, a single trooper has gunned down 10+ aliens in a single turn before. It's only when you get to such high TU levels that your shot cost suddenly doubles that you should stop using it, and they eventually get supplanted by Toxiguns for alien-fighting as they lose their 1 TU shot much more slowly. But until then, and all the way into the very end of the game, the MG is the best weapon in the game.

 

[Whisky]

MG is one of the best guns, but if you don't include a few lunatics launching auto-cannon HE rounds into populated buildings on your team, you're not truly enjoying the game.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's less wrong if you do it right, but far worse if you do it wrong. And Apoc gets it very, very wrong. The MG in Apoc might as well be a melee weapon in turn based mode, its the only way you'll use it.

Wait, what? The MG in Apoc is my favorite weapon, the ONLY human weapon I use, and it's most certainly NOT merely a melee weapon. The hard part is securing enough ammo for it, which requires lots and lots of stunraiding as there is practically no ammo on the market. I love that gun. Sure, its accuracy isn't terrific, but it can unload SO MANY BULLETS that this doesn't even matter. Its potential for collateral damage is also quite low, unlike heavier weapons capable of levelling entire buildings. A single trooper can easily send two magazines worth of ammo downrange in a single turn. No alien survives. One or two troopers with them can empty an entire room of half a dozen aliens in a stream of lead. The more target-rich your environment, the better that gun is! 1 TU a shot? Yes, please!

Long range, short range, shields, no shields, this weapon does it all. At long range, you can still expect to hit things due to the sheer volume of lead it unloads. At short range, a single trooper has gunned down 10+ aliens in a single turn before. It's only when you get to such high TU levels that your shot cost suddenly doubles that you should stop using it, and they eventually get supplanted by Toxiguns for alien-fighting as they lose their 1 TU shot much more slowly. But until then, and all the way into the very end of the game, the MG is the best weapon in the game.

It's better as a melee weapon than as a gun. When the enemy is 5 tiles away taking 10 TUs to run up increase your chance to hit from 30% to 100% is an absurdly good deal both in TU efficiency and ammo efficiency. If you want to deal damage from range in TB, you use HE cannons (only have to hit ground) or Grenades (0 TU to get and prime because RT, like 10 TUs to throw and 100% accuracy because lol).

Also stunraiding is essentially cheating. Play without it and you'll see how spraying from long distance runs you out of ammunition in 2 missions.

One interesting thing about Real Time is that, since you use far more ammo, you actually need to use much more diverse ranges of guns in order to have something to shoot for everyone (at least until rechargables/toxiguns).

 

[Norfleet]

It's better as a melee weapon than as a gun. When the enemy is 5 tiles away taking 10 TUs to run up increase your chance to hit from 30% to 100% is an absurdly good deal both in TU efficiency and ammo efficiency.

If I can kill the enemy in about 4 shots, spending 10 TUs to run up to the enemy + 4 more to shoot him = 14 TUs to kill him. Spraying 14 TUs worth of bullets at 30% = 4.2 hits, with the added benefit of not having to leave cover, and the possibility that your missed shots hit something anyway. In fact, one of the things about X-Com is that accuracy is generally always higher than stated because missed shots have to go SOMEWHERE.

Also stunraiding is essentially cheating. Play without it and you'll see how spraying from long distance runs you out of ammunition in 2 missions.

Well, that's mostly one piece of brokenness countering another. I would have no problem paying for all the ammo, except for some bizarre reason they don't seem to want to sell any, and eventually STOP selling it even in the face of escalating demand. What the hell kind of business STOPS producing the product that their customers are buying in large quantities? Stunraiding is XCom-A is just like base-raping in Ye Olde. Apparently some sort of bug breaks the marketplace and it just plain stops selling things.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's better as a melee weapon than as a gun. When the enemy is 5 tiles away taking 10 TUs to run up increase your chance to hit from 30% to 100% is an absurdly good deal both in TU efficiency and ammo efficiency.

If I can kill the enemy in about 4 shots, spending 10 TUs to run up to the enemy + 4 more to shoot him = 14 TUs to kill him. Spraying 14 TUs worth of bullets at 30% = 4.2 hits, with the added benefit of not having to leave cover, and the possibility that your missed shots hit something anyway. In fact, one of the things about X-Com is that accuracy is generally always higher than stated because missed shots have to go SOMEWHERE.

Most enemies take way more than 4 shots, those that don't are incredibly small targets that are going to have a 5% chance to hit (nevermind the multiworm which is both incredibly hard to hit AND will take 25+ shots). And 30% was probably really generous for a human-sized target at 5 tiles, APOC accuracy is atrocious. Wasting ammo is always bad, and if there are multiple targets to shoot then you DEFINITELY need to get close, because otherwise odds are you won't kill them all at range.

Also stunraiding is essentially cheating. Play without it and you'll see how spraying from long distance runs you out of ammunition in 2 missions.

Well, that's mostly one piece of brokenness countering another. I would have no problem paying for all the ammo, except for some bizarre reason they don't seem to want to sell any, and eventually STOP selling it even in the face of escalating demand. What the hell kind of business STOPS producing the product that their customers are buying in large quantities? Stunraiding is XCom-A is just like base-raping in Ye Olde. Apparently some sort of bug breaks the marketplace and it just plain stops selling things.

They don't sell it because they don't manufacture enough ammo and guns per week. How are they supposed to sell you stuff faster than they can build? They already stock more and more every week based on what you buy.

Stunraiding is literally 100% cheating, you might as well just edit your save to give yourself what you want and edit your characters to max stats.

 

[Norfleet]

Stun-Raiding is cheating, real men take their loot from alien-infiltrated corporations.

But they don't have any loot. And you can stunraid them, too. Stunraiding is not exactly a free ride, either, the aliens bring out the devastator cannons on like day 3 when you do.

 

[Average Manatee]

Stun-Raiding is cheating, real men take their loot from alien-infiltrated corporations.

But they don't have any loot. And you can stunraid them, too. Stunraiding is not exactly a free ride, either, the aliens bring out the devastator cannons on like day 3 when you do.

That means you have captured devastator cannons on day 3.

And its definitely a free ride when you have INFINITE MONEY. You can simply buy a super-fleet strong enough to saturate the city and prevent all alien infiltrations in the first place.

 

[Norfleet]

And its definitely a free ride when you have INFINITE MONEY. You can simply buy a super-fleet strong enough to saturate the city and prevent all alien infiltrations in the first place.

A super-fleet armed with WHAT, though? They would have no weaponry because the store doesn't HAVE enough weaponry and, frankly, heavy stunraiding makes for a rather brutal early game.

 

[Average Manatee]

Vehicles you buy come with weapons pre-installed and with full ammo. Plus the weapons that don't use ammo are actually some of the best for most of the game.

Spoiler

Actually there is a huge bug/expoit with this where the ammo is free, so if you unload the vehicle and sell it back you can amass huge stockpiles of missiles and elerium at no cost. And its almost impossible to avoid taking advantage of unless you are sure to sell vehicles back fully-loaded with their original weapons, lol.

 

[Strange Fellow]

It's alive! Nice job Infinitron, this was a good article that didn't deserve to die.

 

[Falksi]

Superb game, massively overlooked.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Fuck you guys, you bloody necromancing faggots!
Now I'll have to install and finish this. That OpenApoc looks delicious.