Incline Temple of Elemental Evil

[The Limper]

Rogues don't exactly protect your squishies though. Fighters and their extras feats make them excellent frontline combatants and tanks at the same time. One sneak-attacker in a party though is nice to eliminate those pesty opponents like spellcasters. The Fighter’s extra feats put them in a better position to dual role in the front line as opposed to the other classes with the same BAB ratio. Human Pally ain’t bad either but a Human Cleric is definitely right there with the Fighter, no arguments on that.

 

[Cael]

Rogues don't exactly protect your squishies though. Fighters and their extras feats make them excellent frontline combatants and tanks at the same time. One sneak-attacker in a party though is nice to eliminate those pesty opponents like spellcasters. The Fighter’s extra feats put them in a better position to dual role in the front line as opposed to the other classes with the same BAB ratio. Human Pally ain’t bad either but a Human Cleric is definitely right there with the Fighter, no arguments on that.

I play with Clerics in the place of Fightes in ToEE. 2 Clerics, 1 Wizard, 1 Sorcerer, 1 Rogue/Ranger for the lockpicking.

 

[Max Damage]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

 

[gurugeorge]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

My impression of the Fighter is that the class and most of the Feats are built around getting as many attacks and particularly as many free attacks as possible, and making them as accurate and hard-hitting as possible, and without any faffing about (e.g. without the "extra clicks" that a Magus, for example, would have to do, to have a similar power level). That's not a small thing, it's a specialization of its own, that allows the Fighter to pay more attention to positioning, and the fact that it all comes online earlier ("cover the essentials") is a good feature that makes the early to mid-game pleasant and easygoing - again, not a small thing.

 

[NecroLord]

Fighter is the most popular dip class for a reason.
Weapon and armor proficiencies and extra feats.

 

[LibertyRansom]

Min./Maxing optimal builds is fine, but its not really necessary to win and takes a bit of the challenge out of the resulting tactical combat.

If you want a fun challenge that stretches your tactical mind, and gives a sense of gravity/reality to your decisions, play Iron Man, confine yourself to three PCs classes: Paladin, Rogue, and Specialist Wizard (opposing school Evocation). No companions.

 

[NecroLord]

play Iron Man

Nothing is more annoying than your game crashing and not having a previous save...

 

[rojay]

Anyone try the Keep on the Borderlands mod? Looks promising for this engine type.

It's pretty good if you like the game's combat, because that's pretty much all there is. I haven't played it for five years or so, but I do seem to recall a couple of bugs that were never fixed. Maybe check the thread at Co8's website if you run into anything.

 

[The Limper]

Anyone try the Keep on the Borderlands mod? Looks promising for this engine type.

It's pretty good if you like the game's combat, because that's pretty much all there is. I haven't played it for five years or so, but I do seem to recall a couple of bugs that were never fixed. Maybe check the thread at Co8's website if you run into anything.

My first time DMing tabletop, back in the 80s, was running the KotB module. The combat against mostly low level humanoid race enemies seems fitting for the engine use in ToEE. I remember how I enjoyed the Moathouse battles on my first run thru ToEE. I’ll have to give the mod a try.

 

[The Limper]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

My impression of the Fighter is that the class and most of the Feats are built around getting as many attacks and particularly as many free attacks as possible, and making them as accurate and hard-hitting as possible, and without any faffing about (e.g. without the "extra clicks" that a Magus, for example, would have to do, to have a similar power level). That's not a small thing, it's a specialization of its own, that allows the Fighter to pay more attention to positioning, and the fact that it all comes online earlier ("cover the essentials") is a good feature that makes the early to mid-game pleasant and easygoing - again, not a small thing.

The fighter doesn't waste a round buffing. He’s geared and trained to just do one thing. FIGHT! Do we call it Boring? Yep. But also call it effective. I dont use a wall of fighters as i like utilizing all the game has to offer, which means Bard and Druid as well as the rest. Adds for more flavor and strategic possibilities. But Fighters seem to have staying power, slaying power and meatshield power. All without help from the others and it starts complete and ready to go from round 1 forward. I do like to include 1 fighter in the party. Along with a Barb or Pally MC’d with Cleric. Add a Rogue/Bard, a Sorcy and lastly any other class as the 5th choice. I prefer a ‘Pikel Bouldershoulder’ type for the 5th slot. But thats just for
Fun, not a game breaking build.

 

[Serus]

play Iron Man

Nothing is more annoying than your game crashing and not having a previous save...

Is TOEE that bad in this regard? I played many games iron man (though usually tactics witth rpg elements and roguelikes) and almost never had any issues. The trick is to pick a game that is stable and a has good save system (with a backup of sorts). The original TOEE was not that but i'd assume it got better with fanmade patches and mods?

 

[NecroLord]

play Iron Man

Nothing is more annoying than your game crashing and not having a previous save...

Is TOEE that bad in this regard? I played many games iron man (though usually tactics witth rpg elements and roguelikes) and almost never had any issues. The trick is to pick a game that is stable and a has good save system (with a backup of sorts). The original TOEE was not that but i'd assume it got better with fanmade patches and mods?

Indeed. Both the Co8 and Temple+ patches are highly recommended, they fix A LOT of bugs and add stability to the game.
Still don't know about Iron Man and crashes. I imagine one or two are bound to happen eventually, like in any RPG.

 

[KainenMorden]

play Iron Man

Nothing is more annoying than your game crashing and not having a previous save...

Is TOEE that bad in this regard? I played many games iron man (though usually tactics witth rpg elements and roguelikes) and almost never had any issues. The trick is to pick a game that is stable and a has good save system (with a backup of sorts). The original TOEE was not that but i'd assume it got better with fanmade patches and mods?

It still crashed on me when I played last summer/fall with a clean install of co8 and temple+

If it does crash, you can contact someone who works on co8 and they often can fix the issue fairly quickly.

Its a great game, a few things with the AI I don't like. I.e ranged attackers not moving out of aoe damage cloud spells, enemies targeting your mages and ignoring other party members and opening themselves up to attacks of opportunity

I don't like that the moat house was changed drastically from vanilla and there's no option to change that.

The co8 content is thought to be unbalanced in terms of combat by many players. I enjoyed it but I had a very powerful solo build dual wielding 2 auto hit swords who was a fighter/wizard(but started with 1 lvl cleric of pelor and started all 18 stats)

The co8 combat pushes the engine to it's limits and sometimes weird things happen like combat ends out of nowhere.

Id say it's a must play just to experience it for yourself.

 

[Max Damage]

I don't think I've ever used a buff in combat except for Haste and the free action ones (rage, strength domain). If you want independent melee, barbarians are practically invulnerable against sneak attacks, have more HP, rage, speed, and a bit of DR. Excluding whirlwind Scather/Fragaratch cheese, fighters are the weakest "low maintenance" class imo, tied with monks, except monks do get some good stuff if you go all in.

 

[J1M]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

What about a spiked chain build?

 

[Max Damage]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

What about a spiked chain build?

What about it? It's finessable, but I'm not sure that's worth spending a feat on. If you like the looks, that's fair, but I'm not aware of any specific builds for it.

 

[J1M]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

What about a spiked chain build?

What about it? It's finessable, but I'm not sure that's worth spending a feat on. If you like the looks, that's fair, but I'm not aware of any specific builds for it.

Improved trip etc.

 

[Max Damage]

There honestly isn't much reason to go more than 2 levels into figther, unless you're building for Whirlwind Attack. Disagree with rogues not protecting squishies, except for the rare undead or elemental enemy, fighters don't have any notable advantage, and access to magic is better than feats that drop off in usefulness after you cover the essentials.

What about a spiked chain build?

What about it? It's finessable, but I'm not sure that's worth spending a feat on. If you like the looks, that's fair, but I'm not aware of any specific builds for it.

Improved trip etc.

Ok? Improved trip works with everything.

 

[NecroLord]

Spiked Chain is one of the most powerful melee weapons in D&D 3.5, up there with the Greatsword and Greataxe.
Very versatile. Can trip. Can disarm. Can strike foes which are adjacent(within 5 feet) to you. Most importantly it has reach. Have a caster slap an Enlarge Person spell on you and you now have massive reach!
Who cares about that 2d4 damage? Sure, it's not 2d6 or 1d12, but your Str and other modifiers(like power attack) will do most of the heavy damage.

 

[Max Damage]

In ToEE it's same as other reach weapons (worse crit multiplier than ranseur which is same base damage, actually), but comes with a feat tax.

 

[NecroLord]

In ToEE it's same as other reach weapons (worse crit multiplier than ranseur which is same base damage, actually), but comes with a feat tax.

Fixed(as per SRD rules) in Temple+.

 

[Max Damage]

Is that a recent change? I don't remember 5ft no-hit polearms being a thing in it last time I played. Or do you mean something else?

 

[NecroLord]

Is that a recent change? I don't remember 5ft no-hit polearms being a thing in it last time I played. Or do you mean something else?

https://github.com/GrognardsFromHell/TemplePlus/wiki/Changelog
Not exactly recent, but it was indeed changed.

 

[Max Damage]

March 2022, last I played was well before that, yeah. Either way, just an extra feat to take into your reach build if 5 foot step isn't an option.

 

[Serus]

Is that a recent change? I don't remember 5ft no-hit polearms being a thing in it last time I played. Or do you mean something else?

https://github.com/GrognardsFromHell/TemplePlus/wiki/Changelog
Not exactly recent, but it was indeed changed.

I want only to say that this is very nice. Even if the enemy can't exploit it.