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The 200 Million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread (Bioshock: Infinite)

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Morgoth, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. Night Goat The Immovable Autism Patron No Fun Allowed

    Night Goat
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    Of course it is. Whether it's good art is debatable, but it doesn't need to be good to be art.
    Well, at least you admit it. I get the impression that Codexers' hate for anything popular Bioshock is causing them to make a bigger deal of this than it really is; if something they liked looked similar to an ancient Japanese magazine cover, I suspect they'd be a lot more lenient.
     
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  2. Angthoron Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    By the virtue of what is it art, exactly?
     
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  3. Job Creator Arcane

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Night Goat The Immovable Autism Patron No Fun Allowed

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    I would define art as "anything that sentient beings create for reasons other than their own immediate survival." It is admittedly a very broad definition.

    A more conventional definition of art:
    Bioshock would be covered by the first and possibly second definitions. You might not think that it is created with imagination and skill, is beautiful, or expresses important ideas or feelings, but some people do.
     
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  5. Angthoron Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I see. That has to be the most nebulous M-W definition that I've seen in ages.

    Still, a lot of actual art critics would disagree, and they would have solid grounds to base their disagreement upon; and if we were to take it that the imagery is indeed plagiarized, what it comes down to is a work that's neither imaginative nor expressive of important ideas or feelings (none of the BioShocks have these) - being left only with the collage of the beautiful and the skilful, in other words, the artisanly. Of course, as it's interpretative and as we are told we cannot treat art with complete objectivity, it just rolls off to "whatevs". It's rather amusing how art's definitions are rolling around, you could say it's the "What's an RPG?" question for the academia.
     
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  6. Pantalones Prospernaut

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    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/EA...-C-C-Tiberium-Alliances-Tank-Issue-41416.html

    [​IMG]

    Here's one of many games workshop lawsuits. If anything this is way more specific. Not only is the girl very similar but the girl plus diving suit combo eliminates any doubt this was the "inspiration". This is actually a much better case than the games workshop one. And much more serious theft because it was such a centerpiece for them.

    Whoever made that art has a great case. Of course they could be dead by now since it's over 40 years old.
     
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  7. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    A lot of people in this thread hate Bioshock because they see it as Lib/Commie propaganda. They can't really be reasoned with.
     
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  8. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

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    i hate bioshock because it sucks cocks.
    i couldn't care less about its retarded, ham fisted approach to anything else other than the cock-sucker gameplay.
     
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  9. Ninjerk Arcane

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    The postmodern definition of art, and the one that art institutions and critics at large likely use, excludes the beauty, skill, and expressive requirements.
     
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  10. Dexter Arcane

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    I don't get what you people are talking about, someone dug out a magazine cover for an obscure Japanese magazine 7 years after a game's release that kind of seems similar and everyone suddenly gets the idea that he somehow stole the idea from there? That it took 7 years for somebody to make that connection should tell you more than enough just about how obscure and unlikely this is.

    Also the first Bioshock was still kinda good. +M
     
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  11. gaudaost Arcane

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    Absolutely, no doubt about starcraft ripping off 40k. And that's my point, this is normal business and hardly controversial, especially with that cover and bioshock where the resemblance is WAAAAAAY less striking.
     
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  12. gaudaost Arcane

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    I completely disagree, the resemblance is way too subtle to be ruled out as non-coincidental. People tend to have similar ideas, many inventions have been found by many people independently of eachother. It might be that levine got this directly from this cover, but it might as well be a completely coincidental resemblance.
     
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  13. Pantalones Prospernaut

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    Going through old art is where most inspiration comes from. In this case I think it's way too much of a ripoff to be mere inspiration because it's taking full-fledged characters not just some basic design features like in the games workshop case. How many ways can you make a tank after all? Though obviously that's kind of subjective since guodoist for example feels the opposite.
     
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  14. gaudaost Arcane

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    What are these striking similarities here? There is a man and a girl, the man in a pressure suit. The similarities stop there, and there are more than enough difference to say that one inspired the other, and this does not enter into copyright infringement territory in any way. If you're going to call such superficial similarities rip offs, then you might as well say that every panting of a woman posing, is a ripoff.

    These, my gentlemen,
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Are both ripoffs, because they contain posing women.

    There are many quite valid criticisms of BI:I, but this one is downright silly.
     
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  15. Angthoron Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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  16. gaudaost Arcane

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    Yes, I should shut up because of a completely unrelated case, the two of which are hardly comparable.

    Look, even if Levine did see this cover, and say "Hey that looks cool, let me make something very similar for my next game", there are more than enough differences in the design between the two, that there is no way that this could ever be considered copyright infringement.

    I understand that your hatred makes you blind, but do I really need to point out these blatantly obvious differences?

    Conceptual likeness isn't enough to be called a rip-off.
     
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  17. Angthoron Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    We were talking about the particular images used. You waltzed in and started telling how it's impossible, and how two highly similar images cannot be case for plagiarism. I understand, your desire to be contrarian makes you blind, I mean, we all remember your previous threads, but you do understand the principles that separate a homage, a reference and a plagiarism, right? If not, you might not want to post unrelated huge-ass art scans that look nothing like the other while trying to support your rather inane argument.

    The designer in the link provided above didn't understand the difference between referencing and lifting either, and suffered a pretty heavy media backlash. Plagiarism claims in creative and academic circles are actually a pretty heavy thing.

    Also, you mention BS: I. The images reference BS 1 and more directly BS 2. Sup?
     
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  18. Major_Blackhart Codexia Lord Sodom Patron

    Major_Blackhart
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    It's one thing to be inspired by something and then acknowledge it. That would be fine.
    It's another thing to take from something and then refuse to acknowledge it. That is not fine. That is what Ken Levine is doing.
     
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  19. gaudaost Arcane

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    They aren't highly similar. They are conceptually similar, but concepts can't and should not be subject to copyrights, and doing something conceptually similar is not plagiarism. The design of the two conceptually similar images are different in almost every possible way. Case in point: The pressure suits, which both men wear, have virtually nothing in common when it comes to design besides them having the characteristics of a pressure suit. Again, this is like saying that every painting of an urban landscape ever, are plagiarisms of eachother, because they are conceptually similar.
     
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  20. Angthoron Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Presuming this would be the case with the image, this is the point, yes.

    It totally can be a freak coincidence, too, after all, there are several iterations of the designs of earlier pair-ups, however, it's quite a leap from a bunny and a guy in body armor, so I'd not be surprised if some designer saw the image somehow and thought it was an amazingly striking image. After all, I understand their design team went through a lot of sci-fi for ideas and inspirations, wouldn't be a shocker if they'd go through Japanese dime store publications. Of course, after all the media went into a furious fap mode over the image, the designer may have forgotten to mention the inspiration, and thus committed plagiarism.

    Again, presuming they researched sci-fi and various periods for their work *cough*

    Yes, well, I could write a novel about mythical creatures called thobbits that have grassy feet, and whose peaceful existence in a pretty place known as The Meadow suddenly ends as the Gloomy Boss decides to take over the world; one of the throbbits comes in a possession of a magical femur that he must take to a crater in the middle of the enemy wasteland, and once he'll do this, the world will be saved.

    This is nothing like Lord of the Rings, see? Not a shred of similarity.
     
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  21. Turjan Arcane

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    Quite the opposite. Acknowledging this at this stage would be incredibly stupid. It opens you up to a lawsuit.

    I'm not sure in which world you live.
     
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  22. Angthoron Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Yes, now it would. Originally, it wouldn't have. Which's why even if it was, Ken's reply will never, ever be that yes, we took that image and rolled with it.

    Although that cover might well be public domain by now, so nobody might actually even care. I dunno how cover art copyrights in Japan of all places work.

    In any case, it's speculation. Someone might want to do something with it, like the original artwork owner, or the publisher, but that's about it. Overall, to most it's just an amusing little addition to the overall portrait of the artist.

    I'd actually be more interested to know about the contents of the story/volume, in any case. Maybe some 'sperg will go ahead and translate it for Kotaku to earn mad creds.
     
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  23. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    This is significantly different from the one I posted—the size, shape, and color of the dinosaur, another character being part and parcel of the scene and leading the dinosaur—whereas the comparisons of the two sets of diving suit and little girl differ very little except in the exact model of diving suit used and the exact appearance of the little girl. The differences are minimal and almost entirely stylistic.

    Today we witness the birth of a new brand of Biodrone... since monkeys can conceivably produce Shakespeare given enough typewriters and a long enough interval of time, unless something is directly photocopied, why, surely it must be a coincidence, an innocent reinventing of the wheel.
     
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  24. Pantalones Prospernaut

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    Very true. If you notice, it's very common for game and movie makers to cite some completely random-sounding influences for everything they make. I always wondered why that is, but if you can point to something else as the inspiration that might possibly fill the bill it helps to cover you legally. The little girls from shining seem like a pretty random inspiration and didn't much look like this girl, now we see oops whole thing was stolen wholehog from something long forgotten. And people don't realize it but those old scifi and fantasy rags always had top notch artists, most of them much better than working in games today so they are ripe for the picking.
     
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  25. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

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    I don't doubt that the Grady twins might have served as genuine partial inspiration for the uh... precious bodily fluid harvesters... whatever they're supposed to be.

    Nor do I much doubt that what's-his-face saw the cover of a certain obscure magazine before copying its aesthetic theme almost wholesale, though I acknowledge the possibility that he didn't (and have since the beginning; as I said, the odds are "remote").

    What's more, designers and artists in the gaming industry are well known for poring through obscure old shit like this. French underground comics from the 1980s, a Polish folk artist, some set of woodworker's tools from the 1940s, the most obscure shit imaginable gets cited as inspiration for them.

    Even musicians do it. The music Mark Morgan composed for Fallout is, to some people, a little too close his sources of inspiration in some cases, and I mildly agree with them though I don't consider it plagiarism per se.
     
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