Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Melcar]

Plan to grab some of that EE ass too. I heard there was a mod to disable the extra content. Is that right?

 

[octavius]

The companions, yes.
Not items AFAIK.

 

[Lacrymas]

I *think* the only item added in BG1EE is a mace that stuns in one of the houses in Beregost. It's the best tanking mace in the game, however. The others are from the companions or their quests, meaning you can't access them if you don't have the companions.

 

[octavius]

I found a list of items added.

The cheap axes that annoyed me are listed under Ammunition:
Beruel's Retort (Throwing axes +1) in [v1.1.2012] they are usable by Monks. - Taerom Fuiruim Blacksmith in Beregost (purchasable) - AX1H18

 

[Lacrymas]

Speaking of throwing axes, is a character using them as a main attack viable? A Barbarian or Fighter played like that sounds cool. Is it very annoying that they only stack to 10? It sounds annoying.

 

[Grunker]

I found a list of items added.

The cheap axes that annoyed me are listed under Ammunition:
Beruel's Retort (Throwing axes +1) in [v1.1.2012] they are usable by Monks. - Taerom Fuiruim Blacksmith in Beregost (purchasable) - AX1H18

Ah those. I think actually having throwing axes in the game is p. cool and have used a mod to add throwing hammers since way before EE was released

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

I *think* the only item added in BG1EE is a mace that stuns in one of the houses in Beregost. It's the best tanking mace in the game, however. The others are from the companions or their quests, meaning you can't access them if you don't have the companions.

I found a list of items added.

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/The_Stupefier

The Stupefier (The Stupefier +1 in-game) is a weapon introduced to the game in Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition. This magical weapon provides wielder with +1 bonuses to damage and THAC0and, compared to an ordinary mace, it is also slightly lighter and faster. The Stupefier's main feature is a 10% chance on hit to stun the target for one round (save vs. spell negates). The target can be protected from the stun by the Free Action effect.

It can be found in a locked chest on the second floor of the Burning Wizard in Beregost

Before the 2.1.63.2 patch, The Stupefier provided a 25% chance of stunning the target for 1d4 rounds with no save.

 

[Cael]

I *think* the only item added in BG1EE is a mace that stuns in one of the houses in Beregost. It's the best tanking mace in the game, however. The others are from the companions or their quests, meaning you can't access them if you don't have the companions.

The Stupefier is the obvious one.

However, there are items added to places like the smithy in Beregost, the wizard in High Hedge and other places, IIRC. You have to buy them, but they are there.

 

[Lilura]

IWD:EE spell-targeting visual aid prototype feature:

source: http://blog.beamdog.com/2018/08/august-10-livestream-recap.html

ToEE version (circle, cone and bolt):

 

[ScrotumBroth]

Shadow/EEKeeper has always been useful and you should have it either way.

Real G's roll with nothing but a hex editor.

 

[Delterius]

And the items added by the EE makes a mockery of the Iron Crisis.

Which items specifically are you refering to?

Things like +1 Axes for 250 gold in Beregost.

The +1 Axe in Feldepost's has always been there and always been cheap? The +1 Amulet of Prot as well

To be fair, 250 gold doubloons is nothing to sneeze at.

High Fantasy economics. When will you ever make sense?

 

[Dzupakazul]

Lilura
hey Lilura, have you played Icewind Dale? I was checking your website and I was wondering if you got a Tier List of the classes.

my own powergaming notes for IWD:
duals >= multis > single classes
you want a halfling/gnome in your party (preferrably F/T) to use Helm of the Trusted Defender
any class is made better by dualling it from Fighter or being a Fighter multi because IWDEE is very much about combat and dishing out pain quickly, especially on HoF mode, where the physical damage is your #1 way of whittling down bloated HP values fast (same is true for the EE only Legacy of Bhaal mode)
you can dual out of Fighter as early as level 3 and it'll be a very substantial upgrade across the whole game
the only single classes you might want are Paladin (Holy Avenger), Bard (songs and free 2500 XP at the start) and possibly an Archer kit if playing EE
EE-introduced BG2 kits are mostly broken; Inquisitor isn't as great in a game where rival mages aren't nearly as much of a problem, but classes like Berserker are pretty obviously an overall improvement on the regular Fighter, especially given the advice about dualling
tier list of classes is kinda less meaningful in a game where ideally you should dual- and multi-class and even relatively poor combatants (Thief, both Priest types) are always helpful due to their utility
but if I were to eyeball a powergaming setup right now, it'd probably be Pally, Bard, two Human Fighters (to dual into Druid and Mage respectively; alternately an Elf Fighter/Mage is valid), Halfling F/T (shorty saves + HotTF, strong utility and nice damage/crowd control soak) and a wildcard slot for your consideration.
EE-only: Half-Orcs can't dual and 19 starting Strength is less important than the ability to use good items/have better saving throws, so I value them less as Fighter/Thieves than the Halfling (they're kinda meh as Cleric hybrids because you can just Draw Upon Holy Might, too), but you can throw one in if you want to
You're more limited in the amount of spell scrolls you find and IWD is not SCSII, so Mages aren't the be-all-end-all panaceum to every encounter; I'd focus on a strong frontline. The fact that finding scrolls is down to RNG means Sorcerer (EE only) might be an attractive character.

Speaking of throwing axes, is a character using them as a main attack viable? A Barbarian or Fighter played like that sounds cool. Is it very annoying that they only stack to 10? It sounds annoying.

Yeah. They apply the Strength bonus to each throw, there's a returning throwing axe, and also thrown axes can be used by classes that technically can't use missile weapons or can't specialize in them. Cavalier or Berserker with pips in Axes can nullify his one disadvantage, and also there's a potentially cheesy build (potentially, because it kinda goes against the flavor of Kensai, who is supposed to be a dedicated master of one melee weapon, but YMMV) where you play a Throwing Kensai. Max Axes and/or Daggers to throw them from the backline, nullifying your lack of armor and enjoying the ability to throw strong weapons with Kai to maximize burst damage. It's basically a much weaker Archer, but with a potentially stronger late-game. Certainly, throwing Kensai is probably the only way anyone could stomach going through BG1 with a Kensai, at least until you get the amulet with Shield charges.
There are convenience tweaks that let you stack more axes (any missiles, in fact) in one slot, and I think EE has that by default.

 

[Cael]

Just by-the-by, swords are split into about 6 different categories. Axes has only one. If you are going to dual out of a Fighter class, it may pay to go Axes simply to get Grandmastery in it while ignoring everything else and have all your bases covered in terms of melee and ranged weapons. Multiclasses don't care because you can't go above 2 dots anyway.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Just by-the-by, swords are split into about 6 different categories. Axes has only one. If you are going to dual out of a Fighter class, it may pay to go Axes simply to get Grandmastery in it while ignoring everything else and have all your bases covered in terms of melee and ranged weapons. Multiclasses don't care because you can't go above 2 dots anyway.

True! Although I'd still make sure to get at least some points into either Scimitars (Belm offhand) or Short Swords (Kundane offhand) simply because, by pure numbers, increasing your Attack per Round value is the best bang for your buck for the purpose of dealing more damage. Of course, maximizing your off-hand weapon specialization doesn't matter much since you will only ever make one attack with your off-hand, so whether you hit more often or do more damage more often with the offhand is less relevant. Until you get GWW or if you can abuse Improved Haste, bonus APR matters by quite a bit. Anyhow, especially if you're playing Good, Axes are never a bad choice - from the pair that you can purchase shortly after freeing the Copper Coronet Slaves to the ultimate Axe of the Unyielding, they're generally solid.
It also depends on which version of the game you are playing: vanilla BG2's Grandmastery isn't really worth a whole lot. EE buffed GM by a fair bit by allowing the overall gain between ++ and +++++ in a weapon to be +1 APR. There's the True Grandmastery mod fix which really goes all out on buffing weapon Grandmastery. Generally, in vanilla, the fact that Grandmastery is lackluster gives Multis a bit of an advantage over Duals in places.

 

[Cael]

Just by-the-by, swords are split into about 6 different categories. Axes has only one. If you are going to dual out of a Fighter class, it may pay to go Axes simply to get Grandmastery in it while ignoring everything else and have all your bases covered in terms of melee and ranged weapons. Multiclasses don't care because you can't go above 2 dots anyway.

True! Although I'd still make sure to get at least some points into either Scimitars (Belm offhand) or Short Swords (Kundane offhand) simply because, by pure numbers, increasing your Attack per Round value is the best bang for your buck for the purpose of dealing more damage. Of course, maximizing your off-hand weapon specialization doesn't matter much since you will only ever make one attack with your off-hand, so whether you hit more often or do more damage more often with the offhand is less relevant. Until you get GWW or if you can abuse Improved Haste, bonus APR matters by quite a bit. Anyhow, especially if you're playing Good, Axes are never a bad choice - from the pair that you can purchase shortly after freeing the Copper Coronet Slaves to the ultimate Axe of the Unyielding, they're generally solid.
It also depends on which version of the game you are playing: vanilla BG2's Grandmastery isn't really worth a whole lot. EE buffed GM by a fair bit by allowing the overall gain between ++ and +++++ in a weapon to be +1 APR. There's the True Grandmastery mod fix which really goes all out on buffing weapon Grandmastery. Generally, in vanilla, the fact that Grandmastery is lackluster gives Multis a bit of an advantage over Duals in places.

That was due to a bug in the original game. Grandmastery was supposed to give an additional 1/2 APR, which when coupled with 2 dot's 1/2 APR gives you a full APR extra. The bug prevented the extra 1/2 APR from Grandmastery. EE merely fixed the bug.

 

[Mojobeard]

Just by-the-by, swords are split into about 6 different categories. Axes has only one. If you are going to dual out of a Fighter class, it may pay to go Axes simply to get Grandmastery in it while ignoring everything else and have all your bases covered in terms of melee and ranged weapons. Multiclasses don't care because you can't go above 2 dots anyway.

True! Although I'd still make sure to get at least some points into either Scimitars (Belm offhand) or Short Swords (Kundane offhand) simply because, by pure numbers, increasing your Attack per Round value is the best bang for your buck for the purpose of dealing more damage. Of course, maximizing your off-hand weapon specialization doesn't matter much since you will only ever make one attack with your off-hand, so whether you hit more often or do more damage more often with the offhand is less relevant. Until you get GWW or if you can abuse Improved Haste, bonus APR matters by quite a bit. Anyhow, especially if you're playing Good, Axes are never a bad choice - from the pair that you can purchase shortly after freeing the Copper Coronet Slaves to the ultimate Axe of the Unyielding, they're generally solid.
It also depends on which version of the game you are playing: vanilla BG2's Grandmastery isn't really worth a whole lot. EE buffed GM by a fair bit by allowing the overall gain between ++ and +++++ in a weapon to be +1 APR. There's the True Grandmastery mod fix which really goes all out on buffing weapon Grandmastery. Generally, in vanilla, the fact that Grandmastery is lackluster gives Multis a bit of an advantage over Duals in places.

That was due to a bug in the orginal game. Grandmastery was supposed to give an additional 1/2 APR, which when coupled with 2 dot's 1/2 APR gives you a full APR extra. EE merely removed the bug.

But more importantly, what'd be the point of dual-wielding then? You're supposed to equip a juicy sword of murder in hand one, and a shiny sword a murder in hand two. Bada bing bada boom. The way it should be, the way nature intended. Winners don't use drugs.

 

[Cael]

Just by-the-by, swords are split into about 6 different categories. Axes has only one. If you are going to dual out of a Fighter class, it may pay to go Axes simply to get Grandmastery in it while ignoring everything else and have all your bases covered in terms of melee and ranged weapons. Multiclasses don't care because you can't go above 2 dots anyway.

True! Although I'd still make sure to get at least some points into either Scimitars (Belm offhand) or Short Swords (Kundane offhand) simply because, by pure numbers, increasing your Attack per Round value is the best bang for your buck for the purpose of dealing more damage. Of course, maximizing your off-hand weapon specialization doesn't matter much since you will only ever make one attack with your off-hand, so whether you hit more often or do more damage more often with the offhand is less relevant. Until you get GWW or if you can abuse Improved Haste, bonus APR matters by quite a bit. Anyhow, especially if you're playing Good, Axes are never a bad choice - from the pair that you can purchase shortly after freeing the Copper Coronet Slaves to the ultimate Axe of the Unyielding, they're generally solid.
It also depends on which version of the game you are playing: vanilla BG2's Grandmastery isn't really worth a whole lot. EE buffed GM by a fair bit by allowing the overall gain between ++ and +++++ in a weapon to be +1 APR. There's the True Grandmastery mod fix which really goes all out on buffing weapon Grandmastery. Generally, in vanilla, the fact that Grandmastery is lackluster gives Multis a bit of an advantage over Duals in places.

That was due to a bug in the orginal game. Grandmastery was supposed to give an additional 1/2 APR, which when coupled with 2 dot's 1/2 APR gives you a full APR extra. EE merely removed the bug.

But more importantly, what'd be the point of dual-wielding then? You're supposed to equip a juicy sword of murder in hand one, and a shiny sword a murder in hand two. Bada bing bada boom. The way it should be, the way nature intended. Winners don't use drugs.

In Infinity Engine games, not a hell of a lot once you get WW or GWW. You get better results with single weapon or two-handed weapon styles, and they cost 1 dot less to boot.

Two-weapon fighting just made it easier to get the 5 APR for the 10 APR cap as a weapon of speed in the off-hand gave you 2 of the 5 required. With judicious use of Haste and other abilities, TWF is not required.

In later games, it can give you up to 3 extra attacks and when coupled with the right build, you can turn into a blending machine. Plus they nerfed the hell out of WW and haste, so you aren't going to hit the APR cap as easily, although you can hit it with a Monk dual-wielding Kamas in Flurry mode in NWN.

 

[Dzupakazul]

Dual-wielding is generally also used for off-hand weapon perks. Characters who want to focus on personal survivability will, for instance, enjoy using the Defender of Easthaven in the offhand. Considering that shields (and the sword-and-shield style) in BG2 are somewhat unimpressive apart from a few choice artifacts (Shield of Balduran cheese being the most prominent example), an off-hand weapon is often picked for its utility or defensive purposes. Especially with stuff like Arbane's Short Sword (Freedom of Movement) or Hindo's Doom (Greater Restoration and some passive magic resistance) allowing for some neat possibilities, but not being particularly strong at actually dishing out damage.

 

[Cael]

Dual-wielding is generally also used for off-hand weapon perks. Characters who want to focus on personal survivability will, for instance, enjoy using the Defender of Easthaven in the offhand. Considering that shields (and the sword-and-shield style) in BG2 are somewhat unimpressive apart from a few choice artifacts (Shield of Balduran cheese being the most prominent example), an off-hand weapon is often picked for its utility or defensive purposes. Especially with stuff like Arbane's Short Sword (Freedom of Movement) or Hindo's Doom (Greater Restoration and some passive magic resistance) allowing for some neat possibilities, but not being particularly strong at actually dishing out damage.

Dual wielding in general is a victim of the dramaqueens who hate anything that doesn't make sense to them, and, most importantly, raise a big stink about it. In 3.x, for example, it takes up 3 feats, which means anyone other than fighters are spending 3 of 7 feats pre-Epic in order to utilise it fully. For that kind of investment, you would expect it to be much stronger than any other weapon style without any feat investment, right? Hell no! At best, you come back to parity. At worst, you are actually underpowered compared to a straight two-hander. And the other guy has 3 feats with which to pimp up his style of combat. Rule of cool? Get out, you aren't wanted in "muh immershun".

 

[Dzupakazul]

Dual wielding in general is a victim of the dramaqueens who hate anything that doesn't make sense to them, and, most importantly, raise a big stink about it. In 3.x, for example, it takes up 3 feats, which means anyone other than fighters are spending 3 of 7 feats pre-Epic in order to utilise it fully. For that kind of investment, you would expect it to be much stronger than any other weapon style without any feat investment, right? Hell no! At best, you come back to parity. At worst, you are actually underpowered compared to a straight two-hander. And the other guy has 3 feats with which to pimp up his style of combat. Rule of cool? Get out, you aren't wanted in "muh immershun".

3.X at least gives you the ability to perform multiple sneak attacks with two weapons, so it's by far the best melee weapon style for rogue-types. In BG2, on the other hand, you only get one shot at a backstab (without the Assassination HLA), so you're better off smashing skulls in with a two-handed staff or a good sword. And, for what it's worth, NWN had very solid options for dual-wielders, particularly given the small houserules given to the Monk. Also, Tome of Battle really threw dual-wielders (and all martials, anyway) a bone.

Still, dual-wielding really shouldn't cost 3 feats in 3.X. 1 would honestly be enough.

That said, in AD&D, and in BG2 ruleset in particular, TWF-style generally dominates until you can reliably get 10 attacks per round without it, and that usually takes a while, and even in ToB, the benefits of having a strong off-hand are often still worthwhile, if only for defensive capabilities. It's the shield style that's generally the loser simply because there aren't many good shields and BG2 is not a game where tanking - or stacking up AC - is the most optimal strategy, simply because the best defense is good offense.

 

[Cael]

3.X at least gives you the ability to perform multiple sneak attacks with two weapons, so it's by far the best melee weapon style for rogue-types. In BG2, on the other hand, you only get one shot at a backstab (without the Assassination HLA), so you're better off smashing skulls in with a two-handed staff or a good sword. And, for what it's worth, NWN had very solid options for dual-wielders, particularly given the small houserules given to the Monk. Also, Tome of Battle really threw dual-wielders (and all martials, anyway) a bone.

Still, dual-wielding really shouldn't cost 3 feats in 3.X. 1 would honestly be enough.

That said, in AD&D, and in BG2 ruleset in particular, TWF-style generally dominates until you can reliably get 10 attacks per round without it, and that usually takes a while, and even in ToB, the benefits of having a strong off-hand are often still worthwhile, if only for defensive capabilities. It's the shield style that's generally the loser simply because there aren't many good shields and BG2 is not a game where tanking - or stacking up AC - is the most optimal strategy, simply because the best defense is good offense.

Not really. You whiff more than you hit with TWF penalties especially when coupled with the Rogue's 3/4 BAB. That is the same reason why Flurry of Blows for the Monk is derided as Flurry of Misses. Also, note that you can only do multiple sneak-attacks with TWF if you are either in Improved Invisibility or flanking the enemy with someone else (or he is denied Dex for some reason). And if that is the case, you better hope you kill him with that initial lot of attacks because you have just put a bright neon target on your d6 HD ass... :D

What small house rules on the Monk? You mean being able to Flurry while two-weapon fighting with Monk weapons? That was cleared up either by a WotC rep or one of the writers in that you can do that and the penalties stack. NWN got it right. It is still going to be a Flurry of Whiffing, though, unless you have something that will offset the penalties (HINT: RDD).

TWF in 3 feats isn't a problem IF you make it worthwhile. For example (and this is the one I use as a house rule):

Spoiler

TWF: Allows you to use an offhand weapon with the usual penalties (i.e., -4/-4 or -2/-2 depending on weapon) up to 3 attacks if your main hand allows it (i.e., 2 attacks with the off-hand at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, etc.).
ITWF: Reduces the offhand penalties by -2/-2 (i.e., it becomes -2/-2 or 0/0 depending on weapon). This stacks with any further reduction (e.g., Tempest would reduce it to 0/0 and +2/+2, IIRC). Any reduction past 0 will become a AB bonus. You also get a parry bonus to AC equal to the number of main hand attacks (i.e., +2 at BAB 6, +3 at BAB 11, etc.). NOTE: This is not a shield bonus. Note also that this AC bonus is affected by things ike Haste and weapon of Speed.
GTWF: You gain the same number of attacks with the offhand as you do with the main hand. That means if you have 4 attacks with the main hand, you get 4 attacks with the offhand. A spell like Haste, for example, would get you an extra attack with the main hand AND the offhand at the highest AB value. Weapon specific enchantments, however, is not affected by this feat (i.e., you cannot use a weapon of Speed in the main hand to gain an extra attack with the offhand; if the offhand is also wielding a weapon of Speed, then the offhand gets the extra attack as per normal for the weapon of Speed).

Sword and shield style in BG is not for the normal AC bonus, but the missile AC bonus to get to the enemy while running through a storm of arrows (tower shield +1/+4 vs missiles and boots of Avoidance for more anti-missile shenannigans). It is also particularly good for Fighter/Mages (who can't use armour, but can use shields), Clerics and Fighter/Clerics as it helps prevent them from getting their spells disrupted by projectile weapons. It falls off dramatically in BG2, where single weapon or two-handed style is better for the increased crit chance or TWF for the offhand weapon defenses and special abilities.

 

[Sykar]

Ascension is good but the only mod I couldnt play without are

wheels of prophecy
the longer road

These two make tob bearable. Add on top of throne of bhaal revisited.

A shame both wheels and revisited were left rotting

Are those working with the pristine Black Isle version of the game untouched by the tainted stink of Beamturd?

 

[Dzupakazul]

Third edition talk

Not really. You whiff more than you hit with TWF penalties especially when coupled with the Rogue's 3/4 BAB. That is the same reason why Flurry of Blows for the Monk is derided as Flurry of Misses. Also, note that you can only do multiple sneak-attacks with TWF if you are either in Improved Invisibility or flanking the enemy with someone else (or he is denied Dex for some reason). And if that is the case, you better hope you kill him with that initial lot of attacks because you have just put a bright neon target on your d6 HD ass... :D

That is true, but in a really optimal situation, being able to pile up as much +xd6 as possible is still your best bet. There are ways to get your opponent flatfooted and use similar effects to render them easier to hit.

What small house rules on the Monk? You mean being able to Flurry while two-weapon fighting with Monk weapons? That was cleared up either by a WotC rep or one of the writers in that you can do that and the penalties stack. NWN got it right. It is still going to be a Flurry of Whiffing, though, unless you have something that will offset the penalties (HINT: RDD).

Kamas are really strong weapons in NWN pretty much solely due to their association with Monk (and the ability to enchant them up the wazoo) and the inclusion of an Unarmed Base Attack Bonus (which also works with Kamas, and gives you more accurate and earlier attacks), which also becomes a more solid martial dip because of free Cleave and entire Knockdown feat line.

TWF in 3 feats isn't a problem IF you make it worthwhile. For example (and this is the one I use as a house rule):
TWF: Allows you to use an offhand weapon with the usual penalties (i.e., -4/-4 or -2/-2 depending on weapon) up to 3 attacks if your main hand allows it (i.e., 2 attacks with the off-hand at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, etc.).
ITWF: Reduces the offhand penalties by -2/-2 (i.e., it becomes -2/-2 or 0/0 depending on weapon). This stacks with any further reduction (e.g., Tempest would reduce it to 0/0 and +2/+2, IIRC). Any reduction past 0 will become a AB bonus. You also get a parry bonus to AC equal to the number of main hand attacks (i.e., +2 at BAB 6, +3 at BAB 11, etc.). NOTE: This is not a shield bonus. Note also that this AC bonus is affected by things ike Haste and weapon of Speed.
GTWF: You gain the same number of attacks with the offhand as you do with the main hand. That means if you have 4 attacks with the main hand, you get 4 attacks with the offhand. A spell like Haste, for example, would get you an extra attack with the main hand AND the offhand at the highest AB value. Weapon specific enchantments, however, is not affected by this feat (i.e., you cannot use a weapon of Speed in the main hand to gain an extra attack with the offhand; if the offhand is also wielding a weapon of Speed, then the offhand gets the extra attack as per normal for the weapon of Speed).

These are pretty decent, but I feel like the TWF package overall could also use a way to keep moving and full attacking, because without full attack TWF is already suffering as is, and you often feel forced to dip into stuff like that one Barbarian archetype for the free Pounce ability, or into some additional feats (which, again, adds to the problem of feat intensivity). My main gripe with spending feats on virtually the same thing thrice is that it doesn't feel like you're unlocking anything cool, new or better, and it doesn't make you versatile - a two-hander martial just gets Power Attack and is done, and can focus on other things in the meantime.

One option I never got to try, but it looks like it could be solid, would be to use the ability to bash with your shield as your off-hand weapon. Crusaders from ToB seem to be particularly effective with that style.

Sword and shield style in BG is not for the normal AC bonus, but the missile AC bonus to get to the enemy while running through a storm of arrows (tower shield +1/+4 vs missiles and boots of Avoidance for more anti-missile shenannigans). It is also particularly good for Fighter/Mages (who can't use armour, but can use shields), Clerics and Fighter/Clerics as it helps prevent them from getting their spells disrupted by projectile weapons. It falls off dramatically in BG2, where single weapon or two-handed style is better for the increased crit chance or TWF for the offhand weapon defenses and special abilities.

Oh, of course - but the problem is, missile attacks from enemies themselves aren't really the biggest concern outside of early BG1, and that's hardly a justification to spend points into the Sword-and-Shield style if you're playing TuTu/EE/BGT. And even then, the classes you mention as finding the shield useful. Not to mention that I'm generally not a fan of avoidance mechanics in RPGs - they don't feel like they work consistently enough to be truly reliable, and it's better to build up your effective HP or simply avoid getting hit in the first place through a buffer of summons or using crowd control.
Also, there's better, handier ways to increase your AC, even in BG1 - the Shield Amulet is pretty much a must-buy for any squishy CHARNAME, particularly aspiring Kensais who want to somehow plough through BG1 and cash in the ->Thief or ->Mage dual in the future. Mages and Mage-hybrids themselves can cast Mirror Image and Blur very early on in their career. Also, very fresh F/Ms are probably better off casting long-lasting buff spells early in the day or just before the big battle, and then simply donning heavy armor afterwards.

Point is, shields may very well be useful in some cases - but those cases are few and far in-between (mostly confined to early game, or for when you really need a particular intrinsic resistance from your offhand, such as Shield of Balduran, Shield of Reflection, or even just the robust AC bonus from Saving Grace), but the bonus from the SnS style is just really meh and I wouldn't go for it.

If I wanted to power-game a dedicated shield-carrier, I'd probably roll something like Priest of Lathander->Fighter and focus them on using a Sling. Decent utility from low level spells, ability to buff sling damage (from Seeking and Everard's) through DUHM, Gift of Lathander, minor party utility, Fighter HLAs later, can switch to a solid blunt weapon after being done with the shooting. :D

 

[Cael]

Third edition talk

What small house rules on the Monk? You mean being able to Flurry while two-weapon fighting with Monk weapons? That was cleared up either by a WotC rep or one of the writers in that you can do that and the penalties stack. NWN got it right. It is still going to be a Flurry of Whiffing, though, unless you have something that will offset the penalties (HINT: RDD).

Kamas are really strong weapons in NWN pretty much solely due to their association with Monk (and the ability to enchant them up the wazoo) and the inclusion of an Unarmed Base Attack Bonus (which also works with Kamas, and gives you more accurate and earlier attacks), which also becomes a more solid martial dip because of free Cleave and entire Knockdown feat line.

There is no bonus to attack bonus in the Monk. If you are talking the extra attacks per round, that is a 3.0 thing that was removed in 3.5:

3.0 Monk
Unarmed progression: 1 attack at +0, 2 attacks at +4 and 1 extra attack every +3 thereafter (so, +0/+4/+7/+10/+13/+16/+19, total 7)
Flurrry of Blows: 1 extra attack at highest attack bonus, but -2 to all attack rolls.

3.5 Monk
Unarmed progression: same as any other attack (+0/+6/+11/+16)
Flurry of Blows: 1 extra attack at -2 attack bonus to all attacks at first. This eventually becomes 2 extra attacks with no penalties.

Some people like the change. I don't. It really nerfed the one thing the Monk had going for it and relegated its damage output to catshit level: small and stinks to the high heavens.

TWF in 3 feats isn't a problem IF you make it worthwhile. For example (and this is the one I use as a house rule):
TWF: Allows you to use an offhand weapon with the usual penalties (i.e., -4/-4 or -2/-2 depending on weapon) up to 3 attacks if your main hand allows it (i.e., 2 attacks with the off-hand at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, etc.).
ITWF: Reduces the offhand penalties by -2/-2 (i.e., it becomes -2/-2 or 0/0 depending on weapon). This stacks with any further reduction (e.g., Tempest would reduce it to 0/0 and +2/+2, IIRC). Any reduction past 0 will become a AB bonus. You also get a parry bonus to AC equal to the number of main hand attacks (i.e., +2 at BAB 6, +3 at BAB 11, etc.). NOTE: This is not a shield bonus. Note also that this AC bonus is affected by things ike Haste and weapon of Speed.
GTWF: You gain the same number of attacks with the offhand as you do with the main hand. That means if you have 4 attacks with the main hand, you get 4 attacks with the offhand. A spell like Haste, for example, would get you an extra attack with the main hand AND the offhand at the highest AB value. Weapon specific enchantments, however, is not affected by this feat (i.e., you cannot use a weapon of Speed in the main hand to gain an extra attack with the offhand; if the offhand is also wielding a weapon of Speed, then the offhand gets the extra attack as per normal for the weapon of Speed).

These are pretty decent, but I feel like the TWF package overall could also use a way to keep moving and full attacking, because without full attack TWF is already suffering as is, and you often feel forced to dip into stuff like that one Barbarian archetype for the free Pounce ability, or into some additional feats (which, again, adds to the problem of feat intensivity). My main gripe with spending feats on virtually the same thing thrice is that it doesn't feel like you're unlocking anything cool, new or better, and it doesn't make you versatile - a two-hander martial just gets Power Attack and is done, and can focus on other things in the meantime.

One option I never got to try, but it looks like it could be solid, would be to use the ability to bash with your shield as your off-hand weapon. Crusaders from ToB seem to be particularly effective with that style.

Make it so that you are able to attack once with any held melee weapon on a move. That automatically means that two-handers remain at one attack on a partial action and dual wielders get 2. That is a universal rule that I have, which I didn't put down as it was not pertaining to feats.

Bashing with a shield requries another feat: Improved Shield Bash in order to work properly. Shields also have crap damage, unless you make it into a +1 bashing shield, which will make it into the equivalent of a light/heavy mace (depending on light/heavy shield). Alternatively, you can put spikes on it, which will make it into a dagger or a crappy shortsword (d6 piercing damage but considered 1-hd weapon, not light). Bashing enchantment and spikes do not stack.

Sword and shield style in BG is not for the normal AC bonus, but the missile AC bonus to get to the enemy while running through a storm of arrows (tower shield +1/+4 vs missiles and boots of Avoidance for more anti-missile shenannigans). It is also particularly good for Fighter/Mages (who can't use armour, but can use shields), Clerics and Fighter/Clerics as it helps prevent them from getting their spells disrupted by projectile weapons. It falls off dramatically in BG2, where single weapon or two-handed style is better for the increased crit chance or TWF for the offhand weapon defenses and special abilities.

Oh, of course - but the problem is, missile attacks from enemies themselves aren't really the biggest concern outside of early BG1, and that's hardly a justification to spend points into the Sword-and-Shield style if you're playing TuTu/EE/BGT. And even then, the classes you mention as finding the shield useful. Not to mention that I'm generally not a fan of avoidance mechanics in RPGs - they don't feel like they work consistently enough to be truly reliable, and it's better to build up your effective HP or simply avoid getting hit in the first place through a buffer of summons or using crowd control.
Also, there's better, handier ways to increase your AC, even in BG1 - the Shield Amulet is pretty much a must-buy for any squishy CHARNAME, particularly aspiring Kensais who want to somehow plough through BG1 and cash in the ->Thief or ->Mage dual in the future. Mages and Mage-hybrids themselves can cast Mirror Image and Blur very early on in their career. Also, very fresh F/Ms are probably better off casting long-lasting buff spells early in the day or just before the big battle, and then simply donning heavy armor afterwards.

Point is, shields may very well be useful in some cases - but those cases are few and far in-between (mostly confined to early game, or for when you really need a particular intrinsic resistance from your offhand, such as Shield of Balduran, Shield of Reflection, or even just the robust AC bonus from Saving Grace), but the bonus from the SnS style is just really meh and I wouldn't go for it.

If I wanted to power-game a dedicated shield-carrier, I'd probably roll something like Priest of Lathander->Fighter and focus them on using a Sling. Decent utility from low level spells, ability to buff sling damage (from Seeking and Everard's) through DUHM, Gift of Lathander, minor party utility, Fighter HLAs later, can switch to a solid blunt weapon after being done with the shooting. :D

The problem is that BG have very uninspired shields. The +1/+4 vs missiles shield is as exciting as it gets. Now, if you have a shield like this one or this one, on the other hand...

 

[marcuz]

I'm playing again BG (this time EE) after almost 20 years. I always liked more Icewind Dale, because of the ability to build up a party from scratch, and I never liked the sidequests and dialogue system much.

But this time, completely unexpectedly, I realised that - under their slow "face" - I enjoy many of them quite a lot! I will never get in love with Bioware or Black Isle system because it doesn't make me really care for those npcs, but I evidently missed on the story depth, which is somehow more tight and consistent than most games I've played.

I noticed this in comparison with a recent game, an interactive story of quite some success and critical praise: Baldur's Gate on a surface level is rough, with very deep structure and narrative, while the recent game feels to me the opposite, tight on surface, with boring underlying structure. It's like a difference of message to me.

Baldur's Gate, this way around was very fulfilling, while the other game left me with a bad taste in mouth, while not really failing as a game.

The point is, it was a very welcome surprise, I can finally enjoy Baldur's Gate again for what it is, a very good game! Thanks Beamdog!