Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Jaesun]

Also as far as I know (I only play BG vanilla) both BGT and Tutu screw up enemy spawns compared to vanilla.

Yes, no one has yet been able to read the encounter tables in BG's ARE files, so TUTU and BGT just add those really dumb spawns. But there is really not much they can do.

 

[Lilura]

But that's encounter scaling then (different than level scaling in my view), is it not?

Oblivion scales number, type and stats to player level and people still generally just call it level scaling. BG1 scales number of foes to player level in thresholds, I don't see a prob with calling it level scaling - but I guess encounter scaling is more accurate...

I just remembered, BG1 also scales recruitable NPCs to player level in thresholds. A nice perk of this is if you pick up Edwin or Dynaheir at like lvl6, the former will have Haste, the latter Fireball. Considering the first guaranteed fireball/haste scroll drops are Bandit camp/deep in Firewine and level two cloakwood mines, respectively, it can make a huge difference.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I finished a playthrough of BG1 using BGT last year and a few other mods, now I'm playing through the latest version of the EE and I don't think it's bad at this present state, tbh. It's a little expensive for what it is but it's a good tradeoff for introducing new people to the game, it's user-friendly enough and the interface doesn't look too egregious as some posters would suggest. The auto-looting function is quite welcome, and the font size options are great - even modded, fonts in BG1 are problematic at higher resolutions.

As mentioned before, wilderness encounter balance is a lot better in EE than BG1 modded with BGT. That is reason enough to recommend it, tbh.

 

[octavius]

How does the EE handle the showdown between The Harpers (Khalid and Jaheirs) and the Zhents (Xzar and Monty)?
I recall TuTu never being able to duplicate that, and neither did BGT AFAIK.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Unless you install some NPC-mod that prevents it, they do fight each other once you reach Nashkel in BGT.

You even bolded the relevant part:
interesting

Oh well that changes everything. Because "interesting" is such an easily measured, objective yardstick.

BG1: NPC asks you to stop two other NPCs from cutting down her tree.
BG2: NPC asks you to stop six other NPCs from cutting down her forest.

 

[UglyBastard]

There is only one large pack of xvarts that gives noobs nightmares, and it requires a single casting of Sleep to turn the tide. The rest of the trashmobs are mostly stragglers. If you're bitching about those then that's because you can't use disablers, fireball wands and ranged weapons. There's really nothing all that tedious or repetitive about BG1 encounters if you know how to play the game. You just sound like a little bitch who can't handle a simple game.

The Codex is a small sample, and borderline irrelevant when it comes to IE public perception. And I've read comments here from veterans of the game, which show they were indeed invested in the plot.

I referenced the Xvarts because they are an example of throwaway trash enemies. You can replace them with Kobolds or Gnolls if you like. I have not encountered any difficulty problems in my playthroughs at all, probably a misunderstanding. My point was actually more the opposite, wading through pointless filler trash combat instead of challenging enemies. The most fun parts (for me) are where you have to face uncommon enemies or hostile parties. The last two times I played with BGT, so if the enemy spawns are screwed in that version it might explain our different perception of the random encounters. Maybe we just disagree about the measurement of "interesting".

Btw. I actually said that the plot (especially the Iron Throne subplot) was one of the points of the game I enjoyed.

Oh well that changes everything. Because "interesting" is such an easily measured, objective yardstick.

BG1: NPC asks you to stop two other NPCs from cutting down her tree.
BG2: NPC asks you to stop six other NPCs from cutting down her forest.

At least it changes the part, where I "shut my lying whore mouth". If you like the content density and encounter design in BG1 more than in BG2, that's fine. I generally prefer BG2 and some others do as well. There are exceptions like the very well made Durlag's Tower or the city of Baldur's Gate (the game gets much better once you can access the city). My point was mostly about inflated wilderness maps, disappointments like Gullykin and some obnoxious levels (like mines or the thieve's maze). Of course it is subjective, I never claimed my opinion was the only one to be had. We are talking about having fun with a video game.

After all I still like the game and will probably play it again in the future. But denying that it has weaknesses seems rather fanboyish.

 

[Rake]

I like BG1, but IMO it would be a far better game if half the no name wilderness areas were removed, and their content was moved in the other half in order to reach BG2ish levels of density.
If someone disagrees is an idiot with shit taste has very different tastes than me in video games.

 

[Lilura]

Unless you install some NPC-mod that prevents it, they do fight each other once you reach Nashkel in BGT.

Which isn't necessarily where and when it played out in the original game, but whatevs. What Octavius mentioned is probably one of the most notable and obvious unintended glitches that occurs as a result of shoving BG1 into the BG2 engine, whether by Tutu, BGT or EE. There are many, many others.

UglyBastard is a parrot.

 

[octavius]

IIRC the fight happened in Belegost for me. At first I went "WTF? What is happening". Then I went "that was cool".

 

[roshan]

Which isn't necessarily where and when it played out in the original game, but whatevs. What Octavius mentioned is probably one of the most notable and obvious unintended glitches that occurs as a result of shoving BG1 into the BG2 engine, whether by Tutu, BGT or EE. There are many, many others.

UglyBastard is a parrot.

How does it work in the original? What are the other glitches that result? Just curious here.

 

[Mrowak]

There is only one large pack of xvarts that gives noobs nightmares, and it requires a single casting of Sleep to turn the tide. The rest of the trashmobs are mostly stragglers. If you're bitching about those then that's because you can't use disablers, fireball wands and ranged weapons. There's really nothing all that tedious or repetitive about BG1 encounters if you know how to play the game. You just sound like a little bitch who can't handle a simple game.

You've just described what is to me a chore. Sure, you can easily alleviate it, but it still does not trigger "Oh, exciting!", but "OMFG, this again"? However easy you render a chore it still (or even more so) remains a chore.

Note here, that poor encounters was merely one a the sequence of criticisms I had.

The Codex is a small sample, and borderline irrelevant when it comes to IE public perception. And I've read comments here from veterans of the game, which show they were indeed invested in the plot.

Which is irrelevant to us in any way, shape or form because if you suddenly want to play statistics with me you have to use concrete numbers or at least give the control group. "I've read comments from veterans" is even less valid than "people on RPGCodex" since for all we know these "veterans" could be selected few superfans from all over Internet who just happen to share your look on this matter for all we care.

Look, I do not claim that BG 1 is a bad game. In fact, I recently stated the opposite. What is more relevant, I am replaying it right now with a bunch of mods, so I can see it with fresh eyes. And I am enjoying myself.

Still, the fact remains, that most people here expressed sentiment that BG 1 was not their favourite IE title and I merely attempted to explain why this is so. Even if you disagree, and you get your fun exactly from the parts that I criticised then godspeed to you. I am happy for you. The fact that you are enjoying it and I do not does not mean I think you are stupid or something, or vice versa (I hope) so please let's not drag ourselves into mud.

 

[SCO]

Wow, you're going to get raped

 

[Lilura]

You've just described what is to me a chore. Sure, you can easily alleviate it, but it still does not trigger "Oh, exciting!", but "OMFG, this again"? However easy you render a chore it still (or even more so) remains a chore.

Combat is a chore to you? Maybe you shouldn't play cRPGs, srsly... If you can't build a char and compose a party, if you can't cast suitable spells and deck your guys out with the right items, if you insist on plodding through maps pixel hunting and poking every last diseased gibberling you bumble into in your inefficient clumsy manner... Maybe Skyrim is more your thing?

See this:

combat encounters you had there they were extremely repetitive (Gibberlings/Wolves/Tasloi everywhere).

"Everywhere, extremely repetitive" = overwhelmed noob or poor player exaggerating their ass off, pure and simple.

Note here, that poor encounters was merely one a the sequence of criticisms I had.

Are they poor, or are you just a poor player? I share the view a few of the surface wilderness encounters could be touched-up (goes without saying), but most are serviceable for a game of this type and age.

And tell me more! I'm srs, I'd like to see if you come up with better criticisms than Vaultdweller.

"I've read comments from veterans" is even less valid than "people on RPGCodex" since for all we know these "veterans" could be selected few superfans from all over Internet who just happen to share your look on this matter for all we care.

Wow, you're already misquoting me? I said veterans from "here", ie the Codex. I'd name and quote em, but why drag em into this convo with an ignoramus such as yourself, or that's what you come off as to me, at least?

Look, I do not claim that BG 1 is a bad game. In fact, I recently stated the opposite. What is more relevant, I am replaying it right now with a bunch of mods, so I can see it with fresh eyes. And I am enjoying myself.
Still, the fact remains, that most people here expressed sentiment that BG 1 was not their favourite IE title and I merely attempted to explain why this is so. Even if you disagree, and you get your fun exactly from the parts that I criticised then godspeed to you. I am happy for you. The fact that you are enjoying it and I do not does not mean I think you are stupid or something, or vice versa (I hope) so please let's not drag ourselves into mud.

Again with the "most people" BS, give it a rest, you don't speak for anyone but yourself.

I'll just quote what I threw at Vaultdweller last year:

Spoiler

BG1 cons:

>RtWP
>linear, unalterable story
>horrid pathfinding

BG1 pros:

>sandboxy style wilderness exploration
>very solid villain in Sarevok
>solid believeable plot that goes political, then diabolical (BG2 is harder to swallow)
>very large pool of recruitable NPCs for varied party compositions (25, I think)
>many nuanced and fun battles against other adventuring parties and Iron Throne lackeys
>low level campaign with scant resources where every +1 counts and RNG wreaks havoc (difficulty)
>resting is very risky and party gets tired easy, waylays are lethal (difficulty)
>well-written and style captures the awkward spirit of AD&D2 Realms (thees and thous)
>You can actually dual-class specialists (Imoen thief->Conj, Xzar Necro->cleric, can't do this in BG2)
>worthy final battle, which for low level can be tackled in many ways
>thieves are, and stealth is, a necessity for new players (BG2 cheapens both)
>Durlag's Tower, one of the best dungeon crawls in cRPGs

That's just a quick bullet list typed up off the top of my head with no detailed explanations, I'll put in a more concerted effort if you're able to plausibly question anything I've said in this post or topic.

 

[Athelas]

Uh, why are you substituting criticism of 'boring encounters' for 'encounters that were too hard for me and made me ragequit'?

 

[Lilura]

How does it work in the original?

In the original BG1 I've had the Harper-Zhent conflict happen immediately upon exit of the FAI; in other runs it's happened later on, and in other places (random roll, prob CHA modded). It isn't just them that duke it out, either. There are at least four others pairs... it should happen randomly, pretty much anywhere - not in a specific place as GarfunkeL said.

At least in Tutu, something is wrong with the scripts that trigger conflict and other dialogue, for example heaps of flavorful voiced comments are lost. The NPC poises to speak, then just twitches and says nothing.

What are the other glitches that result? Just curious here.

There a many overarching changes that change the nature of the game and how its played, including respawns, waylays, rest rules, poison and countless other less obvious things, but if you really wanna know you'd play the game yourself.

Tutu is sloppy and crude, and if BGT and EE carry over BG1 to BG2 engine in the same way, the same can be said of them, I guess.

 

[Mrowak]

Combat is a chore to you? Maybe you shouldn't play cRPGs, srsly... If you can't build a char and compose a party, if you can't cast suitable spells and deck your guys out with the right items, if you insist on plodding through maps pixel hunting and poking every last diseased gibberling you bumble into in your inefficient clumsy manner... Maybe Skyrim is more your thing?

For this single sentence alone, I should mark you off and go on to the sunset to live a happy life. Goddamn, could you not put your words in my mouth? "Combat is a chore to you?" I think that's called a strawman. Wherever was the argument stated, or phrased that way?

"If you can't build a char and compose a party, if you can't cast suitable spells" are the two assumptions you pulled out of somewhere. So, you have invented an argument that did not exist and are arguing with yourself in order to prove what exactly? How does this statement refute that low level critters are a chore (i.e. trivial and boring)?

"Everywhere, extremely repetitive" = overwhelmed noob or poor player exaggerating their ass off, pure and simple.

Another unsupported assumption that does not even hit common sense. Shouldn't a poor or noob player complain about "difficult encounters", or "broken combat", or "unfair balance" as opposed to "oh, they are trivial and boring".

In other words, what was the point you were trying to make, again?

Wow, you're already misquoting me? I said veterans from "here", ie the Codex. I'd name and quote em, but why drag em into this convo with an ignoramus such as yourself, or that's what you come off as to me, at least?

Then I apologize for misquoting, indeed, the fault was mine. Still, the point stands. My initial purpose was to discuss why BG2 is recognized as superior to BG1. I gave my opinion, provided the argument and I rested my case. You disagree with it, then that's fine. Now, let it go.

One more thing, I don't think it's good practice to call your interlocutor names, like it's kindergarten sandbox or something. In my opinion you don't build much credibility that way. And frankly, I find it distastestful.

Again with the "most people" BS, give it a rest, you don't speak for anyone but yourself.

That's... pretty insightful. I only wish you could see the irony of your own words in the light of your recent posting. Ehh...

You know, I think you are too angry about all this, as if this was very personal to you. And I somewhat don't care enough to subject myself to your strong feelings about a computer game. So let's call it a day, shall we?

 

[Lilura]

This is hilarious... I mean, at least Vaultdweller actually came up with a few weak arguments as to why BG1 sort of sucked to him in some ways. Yours don't exactly approach even that...

 

[Lhynn]

BG1 is a good game, nuff said.

 

[GarfunkeL]

They don't always fight at a certain place - I meant that they usually begin to fight by the time you reach Nashkel, though it's been ages since I had both pairs in my party longer than visiting Beregost for the first time. The other fights happen as well - Kivan & Viconia, Kagain & Yeslick - and so on. BGT also has all the selection/order comments.

 

[Melcar]

Waaaaaay back when I first played the original unmoded game the Harper-Zhent fight triggered in Beregost. I had just crawled into town after getting ambushed by bandits and was at an inn ready to rest, when all of a sudden Monty started talking shit to Khalid. I didn't even saved at that point. Motherfuckers.

 

[Great Deceiver]

How does the EE handle the showdown between The Harpers (Khalid and Jaheirs) and the Zhents (Xzar and Monty)?
I recall TuTu never being able to duplicate that, and neither did BGT AFAIK.

In this BG:EE playthrough I didn't recruit Montaron/Xzar, so I couldn't say. Last year when I played through BG1 in BGT the Beregost fight didn't happen at all, you're right - I had forgotten it even existed in classic, but I do remember now.

Maybe I'll start a new game just to check that particular interaction.

 

[Mrowak]

This is hilarious...

The whole thing was a little bit sad from my perspective, but whatever. Please enjoy your day.

 

[Mrowak]

They don't always fight at a certain place - I meant that they usually begin to fight by the time you reach Nashkel, though it's been ages since I had both pairs in my party longer than visiting Beregost for the first time. The other fights happen as well - Kivan & Viconia, Kagain & Yeslick - and so on. BGT also has all the selection/order comments.

To be honest, it never happened to me, and I had pairs such as Viconia/Kivan or Edwin/Dynahier almost during each playthrough. Lucky bastard.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Did you have NPCProject or Level1NPCs? They prevent fights. IIRC, SCS has a module that does the same, and there's probably many other mods that do the same.

 

[octavius]

I had NPC Project last time I played, and Minsc attacked us. So it must be possible to turn that off.
Or did you mean it prevents dissention in the ranks?