NWN The Blades of Netheril - unofficial sequel to NWN1 OC from Ossian's Luke Scull

[Thal]

The NWN OC is one of the worst campaigns ever made for a PC game. I never managed to get out of the first chapter

So you haven't actually played the campaign?

Also, do you have the same opinion of SoU and HotU, given that most of your complaints also apply to them?

 

[JarlFrank]

The NWN OC is one of the worst campaigns ever made for a PC game. I never managed to get out of the first chapter

So you haven't actually played the campaign?

Also, do you have the same opinion of SoU and HotA, givent that most of your complaints also apply to them?

I played several user modules for NWN, some to completion.

All my criticisms of the system apply to them, too. As good as the content may be, they're still held back by
- no party control in a system designed for parties of 3-8 characters
- everything being slow as molasses
- combat being a boring slog as a consequence of both a) and b)

The most enjoyable NWN modules to me are the ones light on combat and heavy on roleplaying/C&C, like A Dance With Rogues.
Whenever combat happens in this game I just sigh and hope it'll be over quickly, because there's nothing enjoyable about it.
Swordflight has great encounter design, but even the best encounter design doesn't help when the combat isn't fun. I remember being frustrated with my companion (that crossbow-wielding rogue chick) constantly getting herself killed by shooting her crossbow within melee range and triggering AoOs. If I had full party control, I would have positioned her at the back, shooting at enemies from a safe distance. I also had a caster in my party but he wasted all his best spells on trivial encounters I could have solo'd with my fighter, and when we reached the boss he didn't have any spells left. I ended up savescumming and rushing around the battlefield trying to protect my companions from their own mistakes. That's not fun. If the game at least had full party control it would be more bearable - it would still be slow as fuck, but at least it wouldn't be frustrating.

But the way NWN plays right now, it's just shit. The ONLY good modules are those that either
- focus on roleplaying and non-combat gameplay (Dance With Rogues)
- are designed specifically for one class in mind and aren't playable with any other classes, and balanced to be solo'd with that particular class (Almraiven)

Any module designed like a regular D&D module will be a frustrating, annoying, boring slog because of NWN's gameplay issues.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I remember loving the bad, breathy voice acting for Aribeth in the NWN OC sooo many years ago because it perfectly fit the head-up-her-ass nature of her paladin character.

NwN 1 is the best example of the right amount of VO. Only important characters are voiced and only the important lines.

Plot characters also had nifty musical themes play when you talk to them. No one did this since.

I always liked the ambient/background VO in NWN - wailing of plague victims, NPCs casually chatting with each other in taverns, etc. One of those voice actors sounded exactly like my late brother-in-law and I use to get a kick out of hearing it (though after hearing it +500 times in the various expansions and modules over the years it did eventually get old) :

Random NPC #1 (unseen): "How's your daughter doing?

My brother-in-law (unseen): "Uh, she's doing well... she's, ah, up and about now."

Random NPC #1: "Glad to hear it."

 

[Gargaune]

Level design was still better than Raedric's Hold in PoE or Caed Nua which are 90% trashmob cancer. PST was 90% trashmob cancer too and it's ranked #1 on the Codex.

I'll remind you of Helms Hold in NwN, which despite Nwn being shat on regularly on the Dex, actually has, 1) a trapped demon with multiple solutions, 2) a merchant stable boy with unique stock, 3) an unrelated quest regarding undead infestation in the bottom level, and 4) prisoners with various additional information/quests.

Sure, but it's about the overall package, e.g. PST has dreadful combat but it has stellar writing and narrative design. I agree there's good bits to the OC but it's an overall disappointing campaign relative to NWN's potential as platform, as later modules demonstrated. SoU, DoD, TotM and user-made campaigns like Swordflight and CToT are lovely D&D computer games even in spite of NWN's infuriating lack of party controls.

 

[Gargaune]

Oh, that reminds me - Luke Scull, are you planning on implementing some form of party commands like Balkoth's Minion Control in your new campaigns?

 

[Jack Of Owls]

SoU always seems to get a big "meh!" from hardcore RPGers but I really enjoyed it. It's one of the few times I experienced actual challenging combat (only in one main quest encounter though but it was a pleasant surprise and not optional so you had to get your shit together and beat it or else) in NWN games. When I start the Swordflight series, I hope to recapture some of that satisfying feeling of beating a tough encounter.

 

[Thal]

The NWN OC is one of the worst campaigns ever made for a PC game. I never managed to get out of the first chapter

So you haven't actually played the campaign?

Also, do you have the same opinion of SoU and HotA, givent that most of your complaints also apply to them?

I played several user modules for NWN, some to completion.

All my criticisms of the system apply to them, too. As good as the content may be, they're still held back by
- no party control in a system designed for parties of 3-8 characters
- everything being slow as molasses
- combat being a boring slog as a consequence of both a) and b)

The most enjoyable NWN modules to me are the ones light on combat and heavy on roleplaying/C&C, like A Dance With Rogues.
Whenever combat happens in this game I just sigh and hope it'll be over quickly, because there's nothing enjoyable about it.
Swordflight has great encounter design, but even the best encounter design doesn't help when the combat isn't fun. I remember being frustrated with my companion (that crossbow-wielding rogue chick) constantly getting herself killed by shooting her crossbow within melee range and triggering AoOs. If I had full party control, I would have positioned her at the back, shooting at enemies from a safe distance. I also had a caster in my party but he wasted all his best spells on trivial encounters I could have solo'd with my fighter, and when we reached the boss he didn't have any spells left. I ended up savescumming and rushing around the battlefield trying to protect my companions from their own mistakes. That's not fun. If the game at least had full party control it would be more bearable - it would still be slow as fuck, but at least it wouldn't be frustrating.

But the way NWN plays right now, it's just shit. The ONLY good modules are those that either
- focus on roleplaying and non-combat gameplay (Dance With Rogues)
- are designed specifically for one class in mind and aren't playable with any other classes, and balanced to be solo'd with that particular class (Almraiven)

Any module designed like a regular D&D module will be a frustrating, annoying, boring slog because of NWN's gameplay issues.

Ok, with you there. NWN sort of tries to play a bit like Diablo, but its DnD, so it isn't succesful. However, in the OC, the first chapter is absolutely the worst, but game picks up a bit after that. There are some decent quests and locations sprinkled here and there, such as the castle that people have been mentioning here. The music is also great. I wouldn't rate it a good campaign by any means, or telling you should like it, but I would say that NWN is often judged too harshly. For example, I recently played Secret of the Silver Blades, and couldn't continue into Pools of Darkness, because the game was just a big damn slog despite the Gold Box combat. I'd definitely suffer through NWN combat rather than that borefest again, party-based or not.

 

[fantadomat]

I remember when the supreme RPG Codex website proclaimed NWN dead at arrival and stated that within 5 years nobody would play or care about the game. 20 years later, and here we are.... HAHAHAHAHAH.

Hmmm i am kind of happy that i didn't join in back then. The more i read the more it looks like a hive of sexual degenerates larping as RPG fans. The original NWN had decent story but it lacked companion controls and the combat was meh...like most rpgs. Also it had pretty boring and repetitive dungeons. Still it looks like masterpiece compared to most modern garbage,would gladly replay it over playing some of the new shit.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Sure, but it's about the overall package, e.g. PST has dreadful combat but it has stellar writing and narrative design. I agree there's good bits to the OC but it's an overall disappointing campaign relative to NWN's potential as platform, as later modules demonstrated. SoU, DoD, TotM and user-made campaigns like Swordflight and CToT are lovely D&D computer games even in spite of NWN's infuriating lack of party controls.

PST combat is way more fun than NWN and NWN 2 combat though.

When I start the Swordflight series, I hope to recapture some of that satisfying feeling of beating a tough encounter.

I don't know about satisfying but in ch. 1, your henchwoman will die a lot because of spiders ambushes and in ch. 2, there is plenty of challenge, and not just because of the enemies CR, you'll have to fight against the UI and henchmen AI too.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Sure, but it's about the overall package, e.g. PST has dreadful combat but it has stellar writing and narrative design. I agree there's good bits to the OC but it's an overall disappointing campaign relative to NWN's potential as platform, as later modules demonstrated. SoU, DoD, TotM and user-made campaigns like Swordflight and CToT are lovely D&D computer games even in spite of NWN's infuriating lack of party controls.

PST combat is way more fun than NWN and NWN 2 combat though.

When I start the Swordflight series, I hope to recapture some of that satisfying feeling of beating a tough encounter.

I don't know about satisfying but in ch. 1, your henchwoman will die a lot because of spiders ambushes and in ch. 2, there is plenty of challenge, and not just because of the enemies CR, you'll have to fight against the UI and henchmen AI too.

Unless you're talking about something custom-made for a module, the default NWN UI is one of the smoothest and most easy to use I've ever experienced in an RPG so I don't know what you're on about here, though maybe there is the occasional wonky henchmen/AI issue but the only time I ever experienced this problem was when I installed a mod to enhance henchmen/AI; then it all turned to shit. I don't regret the experience however because it was an important lesson learned - if it ain't broke, don't fucking fix it.

 

[DeepOcean]

To me, the biggest issues of NWN OC was that it wasnt a storyfag game like torment with a wealth of multiple outcomes for quests, alot of stat checking and some clever metastory thing with the whole dying and waking up again and it wasnt a combatfag game either because as Jarl Frank said, it was a system that expected a party but there was none.

However, I have to say that at time, maybe is a nostalgia thing, for my teenager brain, the whole thing on HoTU of fighting drow vampire monks that kept ressurecting until I killed them on their coffins with fighting a draco lich as a boss on the end was that nerd Dungeon Master making his magnum opus fanfiction by throwing shit on the wall moment, both for good and for bad. The OC had that 90's DnD feel to it before the cynical corporate age took gaming, there are alot of clever ideas for quests in there, the music was also cool and I had a great sense of playing a DnD session, it was also the first time I experienced 3rd edition on a video game. So, I ended having alot of fun despite the obvious limitatons.

Swordflight seems to be focused on trying to fix those two issues, the lack of combat challenge and the roleplaying thing, (if it succeeded or not, depends of who you ask, I'm alot lukewarm about the combat) but I dont want to play the OC again, hope Luke is going on a similar direction of Swordflight with his mod.

 

[Luke Scull]

Oh, that reminds me - Luke Scull, are you planning on implementing some form of party commands like Balkoth's Minion Control in your new campaigns?

I doubt it. Messing with the AI seems like a bad idea, especially with the risk of updates breaking stuff.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I mentioned this in another topic a few months ago, but another reason I enjoyed the NWN OC the year it was released was because it was the first time I saw Evil dialogue options in a cRPG which implied there was at least some C&C (something else I wasn't fully familiar with at the time). In virtually every PC or video game I had played before that (aside from enjoyable gimmick games like Dungeon Keeper) I was forced into a Good path. So there was that refreshing milestone in an RPG for me at least.

 

[Luke Scull]

To me, the biggest issues of NWN OC was that it wasnt a storyfag game like torment with a wealth of multiple outcomes for quest, alot of stat checking and some clever metastory thing with the whole dying and waking up again and it wasnt a combatfag game either because as Jarl Frank said, it was a system that expected a party but there was none.

However, I have to say that at time, maybe is a nostalgia thing, for my teenager brain, the whole thing on HoTU of fighting drow vampire monks that kept ressurecting until I killed them on their coffins with fighting a draco lich as a boss on the end was that nerd Dungeon Master making his magnum opus fanfiction by throwing shit on the wall moment, both for good and for bad. The OC had that 90's DnD feel to it before the cynical corporate age took gaming, there are alot of clever ideas for quests in there, the music was also cool and I had a great sense of playing a DnD session, it was also the first time I experienced 3rd edition on a video game. So, I ended having alot of fun despite the obvious limitatons.

Swordflight seems to be focused on trying to fix those two issues, the lack of combat challenge and the roleplaying thing, (if it succeeded or not, depends of who you ask, I'm alot lukewarm about the combat) but I dont want to play the OC again, hope Luke is going on a similar direction with his mod.

In short, the campaign will have more roleplaying, more quest outcomes, handcrafted (as opposed to endless mob spawns) combat, and a story that tries to balance themes of free will, destiny and redemption with typical Forgotten Realms fantasy/schlock. The story will be darker than the OCs - narcotics, slavery, hideous betrayal, important character deaths and all that good stuff. And yes, it will feature a lot of FR lore because I'm a giant fucking nerd and I've earned the right to piss around with shared world characters.

 

[Volourn]

Jarlfrank is a liar. Anyone who claim POR2 is better than ANYTHING is a liar. PERIOD. The vast majority of the crap he wrote is pure shit. FACTZ.

 

[Gargaune]

Unless you're talking about something custom-made for a module, the default NWN UI is one of the smoothest and most easy to use I've ever experienced in an RPG

Agreed, aside from the lack of party controls, NWN's UI was very smooth. Quick, accessible and well laid out. Could do with some tooltip info on the charsheet, though, stuff like what exactly's sapped an ability score etc.

I doubt it. Messing with the AI seems like a bad idea, especially with the risk of updates breaking stuff.

Ah, shame. Only looked at it briefly, it does hook its libraries into the X0 script set. Looking forward to it regardless, good luck!

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Agreed, aside from the lack of party controls, NWN's UI was very smooth. Quick, accessible and well laid out. Could do with some tooltip info on the charsheet, though, stuff like what exactly's sapped an ability score etc.!

Yeah, and yet it wasn't too simplified either... just clean, efficient and had depth. I remember discovering effective use of the radial menu after ignoring it in my first few playthroughs. But nestled in that radial menu was a Counter Magic option for my sorcerer that used to let me go onto online severs and utterly destroy high level self-healing regenerating dragons with just 2 or 3 very low lvl buddies helping me. The dungeon masters that were controlling these dragons were completely nonplussed that this tiny team of jerkwater newbies were slaughtering them, and wondering why their all-mighty self-healing magic was failing as we chipped away at them unto death. I think I even got insta-killed with the flick of a DM's kill player button or thrown in jail a couple of times from the more immature DMs. Those were sweet times in my NWN travels.

 

[Sandor]

Yes the OC of NWN1 wasn't great, but it's still a lot better than the shit we have now. It has that old school fantasy feel as opposed to the nutless and gutless style that's so popular now.

The NWN OC is one of the worst campaigns ever made for a PC game. Yes, worse than Ruins of Myth Drannor.

You only control a single character. In a D&D game. A system designed for a party. You can have ONE follower but he's uncontrollable so he'll always get himself killed, how fun.
This means the game has to be balanced to be beatable by any single class. You can't add encounters that challenge a diverse party of fighter-mage-cleric - every encounter has to be defeatable by every class on its own.

Which leads to the NWN OC's utterly terrible encounter design: trash mob, trash mob, trash mob, and yet another trash mob. I never managed to get out of the first chapter because of how soul-drainingly boring the game was. I remember spending 30 minutes to an hour in that fucking prison, mowing down mook after mook in torturously slow RTWP combat where my girl only swung her sword once every six seconds. And there were a dozen enemies to fight through. And most of them would take two to three hits to bring down. And not every swing was a hit, of course. That's three minutes of just sitting there, watching my warrioress trade blows with a bunch of weak prisoners who could barely hit her, occasionally quaffing a potion when I was low on health. Wow... so very engaging gameplay... amazing.

And then the lockpicking, trap disarming, and resting. All that shit took a lot of time. In Baldur's Gate, these actions were all instant. Select thief skill, click on locked chest, the game rolls the dice and tells you either "yes" or "no". In NWN, each attempt at unlocking something would have your character do an unlocking animation and it also took 6 seconds or so. Now imagine playing a thief and going through a location with a lot of locked chests and trapped doors. You'll be spending a LOT of time staring at lockpicking animations.

Resting is dumb too. You sit down, and again a 6 second countdown starts. In every sane RPG, resting is instantaneous: the screen goes black for 1 second and time skips ahead to when you wake up. In NWN, you have to fucking wait for no fucking reason.

I have played many, many RPGs over the years. I've been playing RPGs since the early 00s and encountered a lot of really bad shit. Horrible Russian Diablo clones that were a complete waste of time. Unoptimized Eurojank with more glitches than features.
And yet none of these trash games were as mind-numbingly slow and boring as NWN. It's like the devs deliberately set out to create the most sluggish and un-engaging game possible. It has a solid system at its core - D&D 3E - but not even the system can save the game because it only shines with a party. And you don't get a party. It's a solo character game, like a Diablo clone, except using a system that is completely unsuited for a Diablo clone.

As much as I try, I can't imagine how to make the experience even worse, other than by introducing game-breaking bugs. When it comes to gameplay design, NWN is a shining example of how not to do it. It takes a solid system and ruins it with the most mind-bogglingly terrible design decisions I have ever encountered. Everything in the game feels like it exists only to waste the player's time. Nothing feels fun to do. Everything is too slow. Walking across the map takes a long time and there is no speedup/fast travel. Unlocking doors and disarming traps takes a long time for no reason. Resting takes a long time for no reason (and doesn't even advance the time of day unlike Fallout, Arcanum, Elder Scrolls etc). Combat is slow and boring and lacks options because you're confined to a single character.

The only good thing is character building because the game has a decent implementation of the D&D 3E ruleset, but if I wanna do that I can just grab a character sheet and some D&D books and skip all the bad gameplay that NWN throws at me in-between levelup sessions.

Using a character editor mod and giving your character boots of speed fixes most of the slow plodding gameplay issues. Just play a character a couple levels lower then recommended to make up for the extra hasted effects. Now travel time even around huge maps is pretty fast, combat is faster, just lockpicking isn't. But by purchasing lots of knock scrolls it fixes that issue as well.

 

[fantadomat]

To me, the biggest issues of NWN OC was that it wasnt a storyfag game like torment with a wealth of multiple outcomes for quest, alot of stat checking and some clever metastory thing with the whole dying and waking up again and it wasnt a combatfag game either because as Jarl Frank said, it was a system that expected a party but there was none.

However, I have to say that at time, maybe is a nostalgia thing, for my teenager brain, the whole thing on HoTU of fighting drow vampire monks that kept ressurecting until I killed them on their coffins with fighting a draco lich as a boss on the end was that nerd Dungeon Master making his magnum opus fanfiction by throwing shit on the wall moment, both for good and for bad. The OC had that 90's DnD feel to it before the cynical corporate age took gaming, there are alot of clever ideas for quests in there, the music was also cool and I had a great sense of playing a DnD session, it was also the first time I experienced 3rd edition on a video game. So, I ended having alot of fun despite the obvious limitatons.

Swordflight seems to be focused on trying to fix those two issues, the lack of combat challenge and the roleplaying thing, (if it succeeded or not, depends of who you ask, I'm alot lukewarm about the combat) but I dont want to play the OC again, hope Luke is going on a similar direction with his mod.

In short, the campaign will have more roleplaying, more quest outcomes, handcrafted (as opposed to endless mob spawns) combat, and a story that tries to balance themes of free will, destiny and redemption with typical Forgotten Realms fantasy/schlock. The story will be darker than the OCs - narcotics, slavery, hideous betrayal, important character deaths and all that good stuff. And yes, it will feature a lot of FR lore because I'm a giant fucking nerd and I've earned the right to piss around with shared world characters.

Hope it doesn't have shitty rape like dance with rogues. People that like that garbage are not right in the head. It is funny that jarl talks about choices yet likes DwR which forces you to play as a wench and get raped like in the first 10 minutes. It is a glorified abused house wife simulator. By what i have seen about it,you never really get an actual power in it and just go around being cum dumpster. Could be wrong since i played it for half an hour and just removed that garbage from me pc.

 

[fantadomat]

Yes the OC of NWN1 wasn't great, but it's still a lot better than the shit we have now. It has that old school fantasy feel as opposed to the nutless and gutless style that's so popular now.

The NWN OC is one of the worst campaigns ever made for a PC game. Yes, worse than Ruins of Myth Drannor.

You only control a single character. In a D&D game. A system designed for a party. You can have ONE follower but he's uncontrollable so he'll always get himself killed, how fun.
This means the game has to be balanced to be beatable by any single class. You can't add encounters that challenge a diverse party of fighter-mage-cleric - every encounter has to be defeatable by every class on its own.

Which leads to the NWN OC's utterly terrible encounter design: trash mob, trash mob, trash mob, and yet another trash mob. I never managed to get out of the first chapter because of how soul-drainingly boring the game was. I remember spending 30 minutes to an hour in that fucking prison, mowing down mook after mook in torturously slow RTWP combat where my girl only swung her sword once every six seconds. And there were a dozen enemies to fight through. And most of them would take two to three hits to bring down. And not every swing was a hit, of course. That's three minutes of just sitting there, watching my warrioress trade blows with a bunch of weak prisoners who could barely hit her, occasionally quaffing a potion when I was low on health. Wow... so very engaging gameplay... amazing.

And then the lockpicking, trap disarming, and resting. All that shit took a lot of time. In Baldur's Gate, these actions were all instant. Select thief skill, click on locked chest, the game rolls the dice and tells you either "yes" or "no". In NWN, each attempt at unlocking something would have your character do an unlocking animation and it also took 6 seconds or so. Now imagine playing a thief and going through a location with a lot of locked chests and trapped doors. You'll be spending a LOT of time staring at lockpicking animations.

Resting is dumb too. You sit down, and again a 6 second countdown starts. In every sane RPG, resting is instantaneous: the screen goes black for 1 second and time skips ahead to when you wake up. In NWN, you have to fucking wait for no fucking reason.

I have played many, many RPGs over the years. I've been playing RPGs since the early 00s and encountered a lot of really bad shit. Horrible Russian Diablo clones that were a complete waste of time. Unoptimized Eurojank with more glitches than features.
And yet none of these trash games were as mind-numbingly slow and boring as NWN. It's like the devs deliberately set out to create the most sluggish and un-engaging game possible. It has a solid system at its core - D&D 3E - but not even the system can save the game because it only shines with a party. And you don't get a party. It's a solo character game, like a Diablo clone, except using a system that is completely unsuited for a Diablo clone.

As much as I try, I can't imagine how to make the experience even worse, other than by introducing game-breaking bugs. When it comes to gameplay design, NWN is a shining example of how not to do it. It takes a solid system and ruins it with the most mind-bogglingly terrible design decisions I have ever encountered. Everything in the game feels like it exists only to waste the player's time. Nothing feels fun to do. Everything is too slow. Walking across the map takes a long time and there is no speedup/fast travel. Unlocking doors and disarming traps takes a long time for no reason. Resting takes a long time for no reason (and doesn't even advance the time of day unlike Fallout, Arcanum, Elder Scrolls etc). Combat is slow and boring and lacks options because you're confined to a single character.

The only good thing is character building because the game has a decent implementation of the D&D 3E ruleset, but if I wanna do that I can just grab a character sheet and some D&D books and skip all the bad gameplay that NWN throws at me in-between levelup sessions.

Using a character editor mod and giving your character boots of speed fixes most of the slow plodding gameplay issues. Just play a character a couple levels lower then recommended to make up for the extra hasted effects. Now travel time even around huge maps is pretty fast, combat is faster, just lockpicking isn't. But by purchasing lots of knock scrolls it fixes that issue as well.

Or just use a speed hack. Still the game's main problem is that you can't control the companions and the level design is meh some times.

 

[rogueknight333]

You only control a single character...

Just like in Arcanum and Morrowind, two of your most favorite games? I get this criticism from the "only TB & FPC" people. NWN is not that, if that is what you want. I generally prefer that sort of thing myself, though obviously I do not think every single RPG has to be TB/FPC. If one goes into NWN expecting a Gold Box or Infiinity Engine game, or something along those lines, it is obvioulsy going to be a big disappointment. However, if one compares NWN specifically to other single character RPGs, then I have always found its core systems and gameplay to be among the best for single character RPGs specifically, much better than those in, for example, Fallout, Arcanum (both with even worse companion AI & control systems) and Elder Scrolls games.

Naturally, I am only talking about core systems here, not the actual campaign content. The latter was certainly far superior in many other games than the NWN OC, which is mediocre on a generous assessment. I certainly thought the NWN OC was massive decline the first time I played it, but then I thought the same thing about Arcanum, Morrowind, and other games from that general time period. It looked like all game developers had suddenly completely forgotten how to make RPG combat actually interesting. In retrospect, all of those games look a lot better compared to the even worse stuff that has come out since.

And sure D&D, and even NWN specifically (because it was meant to be primarily multi-player) was meant to be party-based, but despite that it still does single character combat better than many games designed for that from the start. It is not as if the system were completely inflexible and impossible to adapt (and if it were, I would question how good it could be even for party play).

And then the lockpicking, trap disarming, and resting. All that shit took a lot of time. In Baldur's Gate, these actions were all instant...

Baldur's Gate took the time to play a campfire cinematic when the party rested. This sort of thing is not as unprecedented as you imply. Even if one grants that some animations take longer than they really need to (it makes sense if one is picking a lock or disarming a trap in the middle of combat, but admittedly that is rare), that is an extremely nit-picky thing to make such a big deal about. Aside from a few specific animations, I do not know what is slower in NWN than in most other games. Fighting trash mobs or Hit point sponges in NWN can certainly be tedious, but that is because trash mobs or HP sponges are going to be tedious in any game - that is an issue of encounter design, not game systems.

 

[JarlFrank]

You only control a single character...

Just like in Arcanum and Morrowind, two of your most favorite games? I get this criticism from the "only TB & FPC" people. NWN is not that, if that is what you want. I generally prefer that sort of thing myself, though obviously I do not think every single RPG has to be TB/FPC. If one goes into NWN expecting a Gold Box or Infiinity Engine game, or something along those lines, it is obvioulsy going to be a big disappointment. However, if one compares NWN specifically to other single character RPGs, then I have always found its core systems and gameplay to be among the best for single character RPGs specifically, much better than those in, for example, Fallout, Arcanum (both with even worse companion AI & control systems) and Elder Scrolls games.

In contrast to NWN, Arcanum's combat is at least fast and quickly gotten over with. Even a trash mob of a dozen enemies takes less than half a minute to dispose of, while in NWN you would be spending 3 to 5 minutes on the same amount. If the combat isn't great, at least make it quick - of all the games with mediocre combat, NWN is the slowest by far. And funnily enough, NWN's RTwP is far slower than comparable turn based games, too - even the Gold Box games and ToEE feel faster than NWN. This slowness combined with the OC's trash mob heavy encounter design just makes everything feel like a waste of time, and even in a module with good design - like Swordflight - the slowness really annoys me. I have to play it with Cheat Engine's speedhack set to x3 to make the game enjoyable.

Morrowind and other action RPGs are a completely different ballpark, and not really comparable. You could compare Morrowind to Gothic or maybe Deus Ex or even Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. RPGs (or action games with RPG elements) where you control your character directly in first or third person view. I enjoy those games a lot, but they offer a different experience from isometric CRPGs. If you translated Morrowind into a top-down game with point-and-click controls, it wouldn't work out at all and lose most of its charm.
Also, Morrowind's combat is generally pretty quick too if you know what you're doing, especially if you keep your stamina up.

NWN lacks the tactical options of a party-based RPG, but it also lacks the quickness of combat in most single-character RPGs. Arcanum's combat is extremely fast, Morrowind's is pretty fast too most of the time, Diablo 2 is fast, even Fallout's turn based combat is pretty quick as long as there aren't any hobos on the map (fuck those guys). NWN doesn't have more tactical depth than these games, but it's much much slower.

I also disagree that NWN's core systems are among the best for a single character RPG. In my opinion, it's got the worst possible system for a single character RPG: D&D 3.5 which is intended for parties of 2-8 characters (with 3-6 being the "golden zone"). There exist some single character modules that can be run by a DM and one player, but those are usually designed for specific classes because D&D's class based system means you want to have a good mix of classes in your party in order to deal with all the potential obstacles in front of you. D&D isn't designed for single character adventures. It's designed for group adventures, where all the classes complement each other so you can have fun playing with your mates (or, in a single player PC game, have fun controlling an entire party yourself).

Arcanum and Morrowind, on the other hand, were designed as flexible classless systems for single character adventures. I find both systems to offer a lot more variety and experimentation for character building than D&D does, which is naturally restricted by its class-based nature. A system designed for single character adventures is always going to be superior for those types of games than a system designed for party-based adventures.

And then the lockpicking, trap disarming, and resting. All that shit took a lot of time. In Baldur's Gate, these actions were all instant...

Baldur's Gate took the time to play a campfire cinematic when the party rested. This sort of thing is not as unprecedented as you imply. Even if one grants that some animations take longer than they really need to (it makes sense if one is picking a lock or disarming a trap in the middle of combat, but admittedly that is rare), that is an extremely nit-picky thing to make such a big deal about. Aside from a few specific animations, I do not know what is slower in NWN than in most other games. Fighting trash mobs or Hit point sponges in NWN can certainly be tedious, but that is because trash mobs or HP sponges are going to be tedious in any game - that is an issue of encounter design, not game systems.

Baldur's Gate's campfire cinematic can be skipped by a click of your mouse. NWN's resting countdown cannot be skipped by any means.
NWN really is the slowest RPG I have ever encountered in my life. Walking speed is slow, combat is slow (due to the 6 second rounds between actions, coupled with being a single character game so you only perform one action every 6 seconds), non-combat activities like thievery skills are slow. Maybe it annoys me so much because I don't enjoy the core combat gameplay in the first place, and the slowness just makes it worse. But I really can't think of any other RPG that's this slow in everything. The only way it's playable for me is by running Cheat Engine's speedhack at triple speed. Granted, there are other games where I use the speedhack (Underrail due to the slow walking speed), but it's only NWN where every single element of the game feels too slow, rather than just one element (be it combat, walking speed, or non-combat skills).

Overall, my experience of NWN is one of annoyance and having to put up with stuff that I don't like, rather than one of enjoyment. I played through most of Swordflight until I hit a spot where I couldn't progress past some hard undead encounter that always killed me and my character wasn't equipped/skilled to defeat that particular enemy, and of course my companions who could have dealt with it weren't reliable either... I had to reload and pray they'd do what they had to, just to die and reload again. I gave up when I realized I was at the mercy of uncontrollable companion AI and the game devolved into a struggle with its shitty systems, rather than a struggle against the encounter design itself.

As good as the encounter design is, it wasn't much fun to play due to the non-controllable companions. I played a fighter with one or two rogue levels for backstabs. Maybe it would be more fun with a caster? But then I don't get to equip all those cool unique weapons. But at least I would have control over which spells to cast when, rather than hoping my retarded companions don't waste all their spells in the attrition trash mobs before the big boss encounter, which they consistently did only to end up useless in the situations I really needed them. My strongest memory of Swordflight was in chapter... 2 or 3? Where you assault a castle, and you have that rogue chick with a crossbow as your companion, as well as some cleric guy who joins you during that chapter. The final fight in that castle consisted of the crossbow chick getting herself killed by AoOs over and over again because she kept firing her crossbow in melee range. I raged at my screen and wanted her to GTFO but the limited companion controls of NWN didn't allow me to make her to what I wanted her to. Meanwhile the cleric kept wasting spells that could have been useful against the boss enemy against the weaker support enemies. It was mostly a struggle against the AI of my companions, than it was a struggle against the enemy.

In any other game, this encounter would have been fun. In NWN, it was annoying, frustrating, and I was glad when it was finally over. Terrible game.

 

[Peacefriend]

The OC campaign also underlines just how much of a raw deal the protagonist of the first OC got, since all of his achievements were either erased or attributed to somebody else.

Oh, I forgot just HOW bad the first game's main character got shafted:
1. Aribeth, one potential love interest, either in Hell and/or pounded by the protagonist of the expansions (possibly in a threesome with a sexy Tiefling/Drow).
2. Banished from the city.
3. All his accomplishments either covered up or forgotten.
4. Literally not a single one of his companions join him in exile.
5. Is mentioned, I think, once, in the sequel?
6. If romancing a different companion, they also let him go into exile solo.

Now I wish they made another expansion about THIS GUY.

Hold my beer.

Wait what?
The way I remember it, you visited Aribeth who was imprisoned, and in one of the expansion campaigns it was declared she was executed, and then killed the evil lizard.
Why was the PC banished from the city?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The OC campaign also underlines just how much of a raw deal the protagonist of the first OC got, since all of his achievements were either erased or attributed to somebody else.

Oh, I forgot just HOW bad the first game's main character got shafted:
1. Aribeth, one potential love interest, either in Hell and/or pounded by the protagonist of the expansions (possibly in a threesome with a sexy Tiefling/Drow).
2. Banished from the city.
3. All his accomplishments either covered up or forgotten.
4. Literally not a single one of his companions join him in exile.
5. Is mentioned, I think, once, in the sequel?
6. If romancing a different companion, they also let him go into exile solo.

Now I wish they made another expansion about THIS GUY.

Hold my beer.

Wait what?
The way I remember it, you visited Aribeth who was imprisoned, and in one of the expansion campaigns it was declared she was executed, and then killed the evil lizard.
Why was the PC banished from the city?

He took offense to her execution, argued it out with Nasher and ragequit.

 

[fantadomat]

The OC campaign also underlines just how much of a raw deal the protagonist of the first OC got, since all of his achievements were either erased or attributed to somebody else.

Oh, I forgot just HOW bad the first game's main character got shafted:
1. Aribeth, one potential love interest, either in Hell and/or pounded by the protagonist of the expansions (possibly in a threesome with a sexy Tiefling/Drow).
2. Banished from the city.
3. All his accomplishments either covered up or forgotten.
4. Literally not a single one of his companions join him in exile.
5. Is mentioned, I think, once, in the sequel?
6. If romancing a different companion, they also let him go into exile solo.

Now I wish they made another expansion about THIS GUY.

Hold my beer.

Wait what?
The way I remember it, you visited Aribeth who was imprisoned, and in one of the expansion campaigns it was declared she was executed, and then killed the evil lizard.
Why was the PC banished from the city?

He took offense to her execution, argued it out with Nasher and ragequit.

It is great set up for a sequel where you go for revenge. Tho by the end you could have mopped the floor with that old cuck and his toyboy nigger. It is clear that the ending was kind off rushed and unfinished. Aribeth would have been pretty good romance tho. It is very bitter ending.