NWN The Blades of Netheril - unofficial sequel to NWN1 OC from Ossian's Luke Scull

[cowking]

fuck... yeah

I've been having the itch to play some nwn modules lately so this is the perfect timing.

Hopefully it has at least one hard inter-species rape scene and lots of custom AI scripts in combat.

 

[Bad Sector]

I remember spending 30 minutes to an hour in that fucking prison, mowing down mook after mook in torturously slow RTWP combat where my girl only swung her sword once every six seconds. And there were a dozen enemies to fight through. And most of them would take two to three hits to bring down. And not every swing was a hit, of course.

Pump up your strength, grab a greatsword, get that perk that gives you a free hit after a successful kill and when the enemies gather around you (because they always beeline towards you) watch your character go all *bonk**bonk**bonk**bonk* killing a bunch of them instantly. Slow or not, i never get tired of those massacres. Killing trash mobs in NWN1 with that perk feel almost like popping bubble wrap.

 

[rogueknight333]

In contrast to NWN, Arcanum's combat is at least fast and quickly gotten over with...

If so, that would appear to be because the enemies are even more easy and trashmobby.

Morrowind and other action RPGs are a completely different ballpark, and not really comparable...

I do not see why not. It is relatively more comparable to NWN combat than comparing NWN to a party-based game. Like NWN, you are limited to a single character, with all the limitations that implies, except as a rule with even fewer tactical options and less reason to use what tactical options there are, since 99% of encounters are against easy trashmobs. I definitely agree that Morrowind would lose what virtues it had if transformed into an isometric game, but that is because the open-ended 3D environment is crucial to the exploration experience in that game. I do not see why the combat would not be about equally boring either way. Actually if you could walk away and just let your PC auto-attack trashmobs as is possible in IE games and NWN, it would be less tedious.

NWN lacks the tactical options of a party-based RPG, but it also lacks the quickness of combat in most single-character RPGs...

Maybe, but AFAIK, no one but you finds it especially slow, and if they have a problem with it, it is for other reasons. Theoretically, I suppose this could be subjected to an objective test, by running through encounters with a stopwatch or something like that, but in practice it would be difficult to adequately allow for all the relevant factors. E.g. if an NWN mob had more HP than a mob from Arcanum or whatever we are comparing it to, or the PC has less DPS, it is only to be expected that the fight will take longer. Obviously different tactics could make a difference too. At any rate, if it is slower, it is by such a limited degree that most players failed to notice, and makes up for that by offering more interesting build and tactical options than actiony RPGs typically do.

...D&D isn't designed for single character adventures. It's designed for group adventures, where all the classes complement each other so you can have fun playing with your mates (or, in a single player PC game, have fun controlling an entire party yourself)...

Yes, but I do not think many people think cRPGs where one person controls a whole party are worthless just because that also is not what D&D was designed to do. Theoretically one could dismiss such games on the grounds that it was intended that each character be controlled by a different person (arguably making MP NWN the most faithful adaptation of D&D to computers). That does not mean D&D cannot be modified to adapt it for other styles of play. Obviously, you do not think this particular adaptation was successful but "that is not what it was intended for" is not especially compelling evidence for such a claim.

Arcanum and Morrowind, on the other hand, were designed as flexible classless systems for single character adventures. I find both systems to offer a lot more variety and experimentation for character building than D&D does, which is naturally restricted by its class-based nature. A system designed for single character adventures is always going to be superior for those types of games than a system designed for party-based adventures...

One would expect so, though again design intentions do not always end up matching reality. 3E D&D with its great freedom for multi-classing actually comes very close to being just as flexible as a classless system. In any case, classless systems by their nature are going to have the same issue that you earlier identified (with reason) as the source of the problems with NWN combat: developers have to make encounters beatable by any reasonable build and as this is very difficult to do competently in the face of a wide variety of possible builds they tend to default to boring trashmob combat they can be confident anything will beat.

 

[Volourn]

Jarlfrank is still spamming bullshitz lies about a 20 year old game. It is embarassing.

NWN > ALL

Its combat/gameplay isn't perfect but is VASTLY superior than most games Jarlfrank praises. Go back in PE. LMFAO There are things that i would change about NWN's gameplay to make it better but to claim it is 'worst ever' is pure FAKE NEWS. Must be a Trumptard.

WHat a typically sad codexian shitshow performance.

It is entertaining so thumbs up for the fake troll.

P.S. Most enemies in NWN are NOT 'HP sponges'. This is just one example of many flat out lies by this disturbed indiviual.

 

[mindx2]

Never change Volourn, never change my friend!

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

Yes the OC of NWN1 wasn't great, but it's still a lot better than the shit we have now. It has that old school fantasy feel as opposed to the nutless and gutless style that's so popular now.

The NWN OC is one of the worst campaigns ever made for a PC game. Yes, worse than Ruins of Myth Drannor.

I'm moving for a petition for the mods to change JarlFrank's name to Billy Bullshitter. NWN's campaign isn't amazing. But it is far, faaaaaar better than shit we've gotten recently like Pillars of Hypertext Exposition. At least in NWN I knew what I was doing at all times, the world, characters, and their motivations were explained naturally without fucking wiki links and there was variety in campaign locations that made it feel like a globe spanning adventure. Also bare in mind the entire OC campaign was a demonstration of the modding tools. It's no PST or Fallout. But trust me I've played worse. I've played Divinity Original Sin 2 and Baldur's Gate 3 back to back. Now those are some shitty campaigns.

 

[JarlFrank]

But trust me I've played worse. I've played Divinity Original Sin 2 and Baldur's Gate 3 back to back. Now those are some shitty campaigns.

They have better combat that doesn't feel like boring drudgery. You even get to directly control your companions for actual tactics instead of struggling against braindead companion AI!

 

[JarlFrank]

In contrast to NWN, Arcanum's combat is at least fast and quickly gotten over with...

If so, that would appear to be because the enemies are even more easy and trashmobby.

No, it's because of the combat speed itself. If we take the exact same enemy and player stats (from a practical perspective: balance the player and enemy for D&D and Arcanum's system so they both end up with the same hit chance, HP, and damage in each system), it will be much quicker to dispose of that enemy in Arcanum than it is in NWN. The slower weapons in the game get one strike every two or three seconds. The fastest weapons strike once every half second or so. In NWN, there is one action every 6 seconds no matter which weapon you use. When you create a character focused on speed and a fast weapon, you can hit a trash mob rat ten times in five seconds. It's gonna be dead long before these five seconds have passed. In NWN, you haven't even performed your second strike yet.

NWN emulates D&D's turn based system by making "rounds" that last six seconds (as the D&D rules state), but these six seconds are supposed to be a rough abstraction for the turn based mode so people have a rough idea of how long a fight takes, and so spells with a duration in seconds or minutes or hours can be translated into turn times. When you apply the same system to real time, it ends up with fighters standing in front of each other, striking once, then not doing anything at all for 5 seconds before striking again... this only changes at high levels when you gain a second and later a third attack, but every other action than attacking is still limited to once every six seconds. It feels very artificial in a real time game. Real time games should not have underlying "rounds", they should be... you know... real time. In Arcanum, every weapon has a speed factor. That determines how long its animation takes. A slow weapon has a slower attack animation, a fast weapon has a faster one. Once the animation is over, the next strike is performed immediately. No artificial downtime of two dudes just facing each other doing nothing.

That's why Arcanum is fast, and NWN is slow.

Morrowind and other action RPGs are a completely different ballpark, and not really comparable...

I do not see why not. It is relatively more comparable to NWN combat than comparing NWN to a party-based game. Like NWN, you are limited to a single character, with all the limitations that implies, except as a rule with even fewer tactical options and less reason to use what tactical options there are, since 99% of encounters are against easy trashmobs. I definitely agree that Morrowind would lose what virtues it had if transformed into an isometric game, but that is because the open-ended 3D environment is crucial to the exploration experience in that game. I do not see why the combat would not be about equally boring either way. Actually if you could walk away and just let your PC auto-attack trashmobs as is possible in IE games and NWN, it would be less tedious.

NWN lacks the tactical options of a party-based RPG, but it also lacks the quickness of combat in most single-character RPGs...

Maybe, but AFAIK, no one but you finds it especially slow, and if they have a problem with it, it is for other reasons. Theoretically, I suppose this could be subjected to an objective test, by running through encounters with a stopwatch or something like that, but in practice it would be difficult to adequately allow for all the relevant factors. E.g. if an NWN mob had more HP than a mob from Arcanum or whatever we are comparing it to, or the PC has less DPS, it is only to be expected that the fight will take longer. Obviously different tactics could make a difference too. At any rate, if it is slower, it is by such a limited degree that most players failed to notice, and makes up for that by offering more interesting build and tactical options than actiony RPGs typically do.

Again, if we were to apply the exact same stats to players and enemies in NWN, Arcanum, and Morrowind, that exact same enemy would take the exact same player much longer to defeat in NWN than in the other games. If an Arcanum mob had more HP than an NWN mob, it would still be quicker to dispose of... because Arcanum's combat speed is about six times faster than NWN's just due to the underlying system of how combat works. NWN with its six second RTwP rounds is by far one of the slowest RPGs I ever played. IIRC the "rounds" take the same amount of time in the Infinity Engine games, but those make up for it by giving you a party, which means more dudes to control during combat, so you have a lot more to do during those six seconds. NWN is single character and has more in common with Diablo than with BG or Gold Box (as you yourself admitted), so the slowness is a massive detriment to the experience, especially when playing as a fighter class whose tactics usually consist of hitting enemies with a weapon and occasionally quaffing a potion.

The only classes that offer interesting tactical options are casters, because they actually have other options than just standing there and hitting stuff. But even they are at the disadvantage of quickly getting swarmed by enemy mobs unless they bring a meatshield fighter companion... who may or may not do what he's supposed to because you can't directly control him.

And due to the six second rounds that run in the background, you don't even get to use most of the tactics available in other real time action RPGs. No kiting like in Diablo 2, where your sorceress can run away from melee enemies and toss fireballs at them as she runs. You can only toss one spell every six seconds, sorry. Trying to outmaneuver enemies and flank them as a ranged fighter is also not quite as viable, because you'll only get off one arrow before the enemy catches up with you. Remember, only one shot every six seconds. Running around doesn't take quite as long as performing an action, so having any advantage in distance or positioning will quickly be nullified. The only thing that would make tactics possible here is... yep, controllable companions. But they never do what you want them to do so their usefulness is limited. An archer could be viable if he gets a good position and has a melee fighter block off the approach. But when he's alone, and can only fire once every six seconds, and melee enemies can surround him without much issue... yeah. That's a problem.

Arcanum and Morrowind, on the other hand, were designed as flexible classless systems for single character adventures. I find both systems to offer a lot more variety and experimentation for character building than D&D does, which is naturally restricted by its class-based nature. A system designed for single character adventures is always going to be superior for those types of games than a system designed for party-based adventures...

One would expect so, though again design intentions do not always end up matching reality. 3E D&D with its great freedom for multi-classing actually comes very close to being just as flexible as a classless system. In any case, classless systems by their nature are going to have the same issue that you earlier identified (with reason) as the source of the problems with NWN combat: developers have to make encounters beatable by any reasonable build and as this is very difficult to do competently in the face of a wide variety of possible builds they tend to default to boring trashmob combat they can be confident anything will beat.

Either that, or you can design alternate approaches, make some encounters optional, etc. Morrowind doesn't do that, but Arcanum is pretty good at this (although not perfect), like allowing a diplomat to skip the Dredge, one of the hardest dungeons in the game.

One of the rare games that manages to keep encounters interesting and challenging while also being single character and offering a wide variety of builds is Underrail. Many different builds are effective, but you have to be careful not to turn yourself into a jack of all trades who becomes a master of none and will struggle against powerful enemies. And in some areas, the game allows for stealthy approaches so you don't have to engage with the enemies at all. Great game, and proof that the best single character games are those with a system designed and balanced around single character playthroughs. It still has some design decisions I'm not too fond of (fucking cooldowns), but overall it's one of the best single character isometric RPGs out there when it comes to variety of builds and tactics.

 

[Fedora Master]

Having played the OC not long ago, all I can say is: It's serviceable but not much more. Formulaic and with zero CnC. There are some good bits in there - The ghost mansion murder trial - but not enough to make it stand out compared to other games.

Also: Friendly reminder to say No to Beamdog bullshit.

 

[Riddler]

Having played the OC not long ago, all I can say is: It's serviceable but not much more. Formulaic and with zero CnC. There are some good bits in there - The ghost mansion murder trial - but not enough to make it stand out compared to other games.

Also: Friendly reminder to say No to Beamdog bullshit.

There is plenty of CoC in the OC, it's just self-contained in the quests. The quest you mentioned being a prime example.

I would say that the primary issues with the OC is how formulaic it is, how bad the itemisation is and how bad the quest rewards are.

 

[LibertyRansom]

Is this a solo effort Luke Scull or are you collaborating with anyone?

As of now, this is a solo effort with a few contractors for art and music further down the line.

Hi, various music I have composed has been licensed in Knight of the Chalice 2, Shameless (the TV show), #KILLALLZOMBIES, and a bunch of other video games. I'd be willing to donate some of the fantasy songs I have composed for free to this effort. See a few below I'd be happy to donate to this effort:








I've played some great NWN modules, so I feel this might be a way to give back. Just let me know if interested, and I can give you a license. Have some others that might work as well.

 

[Fedora Master]

Having played the OC not long ago, all I can say is: It's serviceable but not much more. Formulaic and with zero CnC. There are some good bits in there - The ghost mansion murder trial - but not enough to make it stand out compared to other games.

Also: Friendly reminder to say No to Beamdog bullshit.

There is plenty of CoC in the OC, it's just self-contained in the quests. The quest you mentioned being a prime example.

We must have different definitions of CnC, because none of the choices can come back to bite you in the ass later. As you said, it's all contained within the quest, often within the same goddamn cell.

 

[Volourn]

"Formulaic and with zero CnC."

Full of shit.

 

[Reinhardt]

you never really get an actual power in it and just go around being cum dumpster.

Gud git.

 

[rogueknight333]

...NWN emulates D&D's turn based system by making "rounds" that last six seconds (as the D&D rules state), but these six seconds are supposed to be a rough abstraction for the turn based mode so people have a rough idea of how long a fight takes, and so spells with a duration in seconds or minutes or hours can be translated into turn times. When you apply the same system to real time, it ends up with fighters standing in front of each other, striking once, then not doing anything at all for 5 seconds before striking again... this only changes at high levels when you gain a second and later a third attack, but every other action than attacking is still limited to once every six seconds...

Ok, that does kind of make sense as an objection, at least in theory (though if hasted as higher level characters routinely are, a lot of stuff is going to take 3 seconds, not 6). In practice, combat in NWN hardly takes long enough for most people (or anyone but you?) to even notice the difference. Possibly that is because if one is playing a powerbuild against the kind of trashmobs one finds in the OC or a typical module, a lot of them are going to die in one hit anyway, or perhaps because people who play a lot know many tactics and different abilities to use which makes more difficult fights actually interesting. I do not think Arcanum or Morrowind (among others) offered a remotely comparable tactical toolkit, but I cannot be sure, because it is difficult to recall any encounter from either game that was actually challenging enough to make for a proper comparison. Spamming mouse clicks to attack could handle almost everything.

Possibly it also makes a difference if one were to play without pausing at all (as those accustomed to the multi-player will often tend to do, since pausing is typically not available in MP)? In which case having a few extra seconds to process things every now and then would actually be quite helpful.

And due to the six second rounds that run in the background, you don't even get to use most of the tactics available in other real time action RPGs. No kiting like in Diablo 2, where your sorceress can run away from melee enemies and toss fireballs at them as she runs. You can only toss one spell every six seconds, sorry. Trying to outmaneuver enemies and flank them as a ranged fighter is also not quite as viable, because you'll only get off one arrow before the enemy catches up with you. Remember, only one shot every six seconds. Running around doesn't take quite as long as performing an action, so having any advantage in distance or positioning will quickly be nullified. The only thing that would make tactics possible here is... yep, controllable companions. But they never do what you want them to do so their usefulness is limited...

It is quite possible to kite in NWN, I do so all the time. I also maneuver for a favorable position, use terrain to my advantage and other such tactics that you seem to be unaware of or believe impossible. Even the companions are less useless than in other single-character games, though that is not saying much. If you know how little they can do, develop tactics that take their relative uselessness into account, rather than trying to pretend they are something they are not.

Or to make the above point more tersely: git gud, noob.

.Either that, or you can design alternate approaches, make some encounters optional, etc. Morrowind doesn't do that, but Arcanum is pretty good at this (although not perfect), like allowing a diplomat to skip the Dredge, one of the hardest dungeons in the game.

One of the rare games that manages to keep encounters interesting and challenging while also being single character and offering a wide variety of builds is Underrail. Many different builds are effective, but you have to be careful not to turn yourself into a jack of all trades who becomes a master of none and will struggle against powerful enemies. And in some areas, the game allows for stealthy approaches so you don't have to engage with the enemies at all. Great game, and proof that the best single character games are those with a system designed and balanced around single character playthroughs. It still has some design decisions I'm not too fond of (fucking cooldowns), but overall it's one of the best single character isometric RPGs out there when it comes to variety of builds and tactics.

It might well be better (have not played it myself), but you have actually not described anything that one could not also say about NWN. It is entirely possible in NWN to set up situations with a diplomatic or stealth solution and design challenging encounters that make one's build (of which there is an immense variety available) hugely important. Modules that actually do any of that very well are rare of course, but that is not an issue with the game system itself, and I am not arguing that other games do not have better content.

 

[Pink Eye]

Is this a solo effort Luke Scull or are you collaborating with anyone?

As of now, this is a solo effort with a few contractors for art and music further down the line.

Hi, various music I have composed has been licensed in Knight of the Chalice 2, Shameless (the TV show), #KILLALLZOMBIES, and a bunch of other video games. I'd be willing to donate some of the fantasy songs I have composed for free to this effort. See a few below I'd be happy to donate to this effort:








I've played some great NWN modules, so I feel this might be a way to give back. Just let me know if interested, and I can give you a license. Have some others that might work as well.

Whoa. Skirmish at the Edge of the Badlands was used in Knights of the Chalice 2! Augury of Chaos! Thank you for your music!

 

[Luke Scull]

Is this a solo effort Luke Scull or are you collaborating with anyone?

As of now, this is a solo effort with a few contractors for art and music further down the line.

Hi, various music I have composed has been licensed in Knight of the Chalice 2, Shameless (the TV show), #KILLALLZOMBIES, and a bunch of other video games. I'd be willing to donate some of the fantasy songs I have composed for free to this effort. See a few below I'd be happy to donate to this effort:








I've played some great NWN modules, so I feel this might be a way to give back. Just let me know if interested, and I can give you a license. Have some others that might work as well.

Thank you! That's much appreciated.

 

[Luke Scull]

NWNEE is currently 80% off on Steam, as is Tyrants of the Moonsea and all the other DLC. All I need to do is sell 100,000 more copies of Tyrants of the Moonsea and I'll probably be able to fund new content for The Blades of Netheril without dipping into my own meager resources.

You know what to do, Codex.

 

[Sandor]

The best way to experience combat in NWN, or any single player character CRPG is to play a character with a lot of variety of abilities, maneuvers, tactics. Playing a magic using character, Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Druid is top[ tier of this. A wizard can have dozens of spells to chose from by mid level, many are tactically optimal over others noy as much, so decisions matter. Magic users also many times have to make more decisions to PREPARE for a battle beforehand, readying spell selection, buffs and magic item equipping. This is another tactical layer. Thirdly, Several Magic using classes have Familiars as well as summons they can partially tactically control in battles. In NWN 1 playing one of these Classes with a familiar, summons, and a couple companion AI starts to feel somewhat tactical, at least as much as Arcanum, Fallout 1&2 and such. Playing a multiclass like Thief 1/Wizard 19 o0r Thief 2-3/Wizard17-18, Monk5/Druid15 etc. also adds more in and out of combat options including tactical. For more class options you get the PRE prestige class module to, tons of additional tactical options. Playing Magic users with large area destruct spells and such also speeds up combat since grunt mobs can be wiped with single spells quickly.

Unfortunately D&D mechanics were usually weak for grunt fighter classes-Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, even Paladins were hardly better for all editions. It's usually, swing sword, (even with feats like Cleave or Power attack, there passive and automatic) get swung at, rinse and repeat. Only options like combat maneuvers gave melee-bow combatants a bit of thinking and variety to do in combat. The monk is the one exception, they actually get interesting maneuvers, but compared to magic users even they get about 25% of the tactic/maneuvers to use. In 5th edition only one fighter subclass gets combat maneuvers.

 

[JarlFrank]

I do not think Arcanum or Morrowind (among others) offered a remotely comparable tactical toolkit, but I cannot be sure, because it is difficult to recall any encounter from either game that was actually challenging enough to make for a proper comparison. Spamming mouse clicks to attack could handle almost everything.

Now that's more a question of encounter design than system design, isn't it? Both Arcanum and Morrowind have modding tools, too. It's entirely conceivable that someone could make a challenging module based on difficult combat encounters in either game, just like you made a challenging module for NWN - whose base campaign mostly features boring trash mobs.

 

[JarlFrank]

NWNEE is currently 80% off on Steam, as is Tyrants of the Moonsea and all the other DLC. All I need to do is sell 100,000 more copies of Tyrants of the Moonsea and I'll probably be able to fund new content for The Blades of Netheril without dipping into my own meager resources.

You know what to do, Codex.

As much as I hate NWN, I love modders, so I already bought your modules a long time ago. Godspeed

(Please switch to Knights of the Chalice 2 though once that's polished and properly released)

 

[Fedora Master]

"Formulaic and with zero CnC."

Full of shit.

Every single act boils down to "Here are 4 areas, go there and find item X". It doesn't get more formulaic than that.

 

[Volourn]

"Unfortunately D&D mechanics were usually weak for grunt fighter classes-Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, even Paladins were hardly better for all editions. It's usually, swing sword, (even with feats like Cleave or Power attack, there passive and automatic) get swung at, rinse and repeat. Only options like combat maneuvers gave melee-bow combatants a bit of thinking and variety to do in combat. The monk is the one exception, they actually get interesting maneuvers, but compared to magic users even they get about 25% of the tactic/maneuvers to use. In 5th edition only one fighter subclass gets combat maneuvers."

NWN has called shots, knockdown (version of trip), and other combat manueveres.


"Every single act boils down to "Here are 4 areas, go there and find item X". It doesn't get more formulaic than that."

We weren't talking about chapter forms. We were talking C&C. Why change subjects unless you know you are full of shit.

 

[Fedora Master]

You know what to do, Codex.

Not give Beamdog money?

 

[PaquoCastor]

Yeah NWN indeed has no tactical options. Re: kiting. If you want more tactics on your fighter, just splash some rogue or bard; UMD and tumble are worth it alone.https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/nwn...tricks-including-the-sam-t2355297.html#p18445
I can't deal with RTwP and FPC, I like IWD, but no, just no. However, single character RTwP like NWN works for me. I also don't care much for FPControl without FPCreation or FPCreation with gather your party. We all have our preferences I suppose.

I'll get around to playing this sometime after release, but I should probably play AL2 first.
P.S. Shadow Sun is pretty good.