From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Elwro]

Well, you can call it being prepared, and my first character was also like that, but just remember you will most likely have to solo all the bosses for which there is no NPC phantom to summon. (Doable of course.)

 

[Darklife]

Just go on dark souls wiki. Everything is on there. Almost to a fault.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well, you can call it being prepared, and my first character was also like that, but just remember you will most likely have to solo all the bosses for which there is no NPC phantom to summon. (Doable of course.)

I hate people, so that's not a problem for me.

 

[Average Manatee]

Going into Sen's with more than SL30ish is overleveled.

Though to be fair weapons/items/spells/upgrades are more important, and most players who are sprinting through the game can equal higher level builds once you know how to easily make +15 weapons and pick up important items. But I suppose you have most of those already, so things will be double easy.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Nah, I try to only check stuff that I can miss or do horribly wrong (after talking to Alvina once, I'm never answering a question asked by an NPC before double-checking the Wiki), so I haven't checked much in regards to hidden loot or where the Embers are located (I've only found the Divine Ember so far).

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

So I've beaten Pikachu and Snorlax now, wondering where I should head next.

 

[Damned Registrations]

To advance the plot? Through the sealed golden doors that are now gone you've probably seen around.

Though tbh you've probably got a lot of places left to explore that were already open. Just go anywhere you haven't been before and wreck shit. Whole game is available now.

 

[KidBoogie]

i killed the firekeeper...

oops

 

[Murk]

There's more than one. If you're talking about the one in firelink shrine then:

Spoiler

If Lautrec killed her (Anastasia) you can revive her if you use the eye-orb in a specific place in Anor Londo, it's a tough fight tho -- and one of the Sealer's is with Lautrec. But, this allows you to get his armor later.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Btw, since I'm not going to check through one hundred pages of the topic, anyone notice how a lot of the story elements in Dark Souls bear a very distinct resemblance to Blood Omen?

 

[Murk]

How do you mean?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

How do you mean?

Well, basically the whole thing is very much like Blood Omen. Short version of it:

- The world revolves around a big mcguffin, which is now decaying and everything is fucked if something isn't done soon.
- The former head honchos related to said mcguffin are now crazy axe murderer types for the most part, and now generally just hang out in their doom fortress cribs and do nasty things there.
- The player character is sent on a quest to resolve the mcguffin problem by killing the aforementioned honchos and gathering their stuff, with the sales pitch being that it'll break the curse of undeath that you have.
- Of course, that pitch is a load of bollocks because the ones sending you around don't want to give you the full deal.
- The whole situation is actually manipulated behind the scenes by unseen forces with investment in either outcome.
- At the end, the main character is presented with a binary choice of the world probably being less fucked but you dying, and the world most likely being totally fucked but you maybe getting to sit alone on the throne in perpetual darkness and decay.

So basically the key difference between the two is that Dark Souls goes out of its way to be vague and generally presents information second-hand or indirectly, while Legacy of Kain had an extremely focused narrative.

 

[Murk]

Huh, well put. I was feeling the axe-murder head honcho situation and the fact that you have to deal with both ends (good/bad doesn't matter, and former "gods" are just more punks to punch).

From Software does do quite a bit of recycling, tho up to this point I thought it was just their own ideas (Ostrava of Boletaria, from Demon's Souls, is basically a retelling of Prince Loyd from King's Field 2).

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

It's actually a bit of a shame not many people seem to have drawn the connection. Then again, Blood Omen is soon twenty years old, and the last Legacy of Kain game came out nearly ten years ago. I'd actually be more curious to find out if it's coincidence, subconscious memory, or direct influence with LoK.

What's even funnier is that the "secret ending" people clamour for would basically be the Kain option (since Amy Hennig took pretty much every detail from Blood Omen and retroactively made Blood Omen's plot into a masterpiece by creating a whole new sinister web as the various little details were fleshed out and connected in the sequels; and this is considering the fact that Blood Omen already had subtlety and quality on its own, seeing how it had little things like there being small objects related to the future and alternate timeline events that are yet to happen in the story).


(And I'm pretty aware of the From Software story discontinuity, they pull that with EVERY installment of Armored Core)

 

[Surf Solar]

People sending you on a "holy quest" to save the world or possibly make it a less fucked up place, killing former "heroes" while holding up on some crucial background informations is quite a common trope in terms of storytelling. It is not the story per se that is awesome in Dark Souls, it is the delivery.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

People sending you on a "holy quest" to save the world or possibly make it a less fucked up place, killing former "heroes" while holding up on some crucial background informations is quite a common trope in terms of storytelling. It is not the story per se that is awesome in Dark Souls, it is the delivery.

Personally I wouldn't call being intentionally vague a delivery. In general I've got mixed feelings about that choice, since on the other hand they are clearly putting a lot of thought into all the possibilities they present and there's a lot of interesting implications, but on the other hand this choice means it will never actually live up to anything as the whole thing is ultimately left up in the air.

And it's not the trope, it's the fact that this stuff is REALLY specifically similar to what was done in Blood Omen. You can also draw other very very close similarities, like the stuff Seath is doing in his Archives and what Bane and Dejoule were doing in Dark Eden.

---

Speaking of which, today's kill count was Black Hydra, Seath, and Big Hat Logan. I disliked the Archives (fucking archers and channelers mang), and I *loathed* the Crystal Cave (there's a special place in hell for the guy behind it), even though I greatly enjoyed the visual design and in case of the Archives the layout as well. I also wasted some fifteen minutes circling Seath until I realized I wasn't hitting tip enough of his tail. Once I finally chopped the bastard's tail off and homewarded away to set up the actual "you know what time it is baby it's time to die" loadout, the fight lasted around five seconds after the primordial crystal was broken.

I also think Seath the Scaleless is an extremely succesful visual, and he has by far the most characterful attacks out of the enemies encountered so far.

Besides that stuff, leveled Attunement to 22, one more for the sixth and final slot (I've taken too much of a liking to the double slot spells' visuals), trying to figure out if there's any use for Chaos Firestorm (in retrospect it probably could have one-shotted Seath), and cleaned out Logan's Crystal spells (haven't yet run tests on how much the some twenty points of Magic Adjustment does for the sorcery spells, currently still chucking flaming hadoukens).

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

The Crystal Caves are a classic example of an area terrifying the first time, caution inducing the second, and by the third or fourth time you're probably sprinting through the whole thing, wishing it were larger.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Yeah, you can tell those last endgame areas were a bit rushed, especially Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith being the worst of it. At least Tomb of the Giants turned out okay, that was the sort of dungeon crawl I'd like to see more of in games.

 

[Cyberarmy]

The Crystal Caves are a classic example of an area terrifying the first time, caution inducing the second, and by the third or fourth time you're probably sprinting through the whole thing, wishing it were larger.

Ugh, i nearly cried there in my first playhrough...

 

[Heresiarch]

I really, really, really hate to admit this, but all four final areas are...small. And rushable. For the first 4 or 5 times dying there it's surely frustrating, but after that you'll soon realize that you can parkour through everything.

The only place that can still fuck you up is Blighttown, but even then it'll take a at most a dozen of running through to get all the feelings out of it. Recently there came out a map viewer that you can use to see all the in game areas, without the lighting and background textures. And believe me, don't get curious and look at it - it will ruin the game forever to you.

However, you got to admit From Software did a superb job at making these areas way bigger, way scarier, way more difficult to navigate than what they really are.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I never really got that sentiment. It's much much much faster to rush through catacombs or blight town or undead burg/parish/depths than the demon ruins or archives/caves. New londo is short, provided you already did the first half and opened the shortcut, and so is the tomb. But the demon ruins/izalith has multiple bosses and huge areas to traverse, even if you beeline for bed of chaos. The big flat plains filled with single enemy types were definitely rushed, but everything else about them felt fine. I guess it would have been nice if it had more equipment drops? But that'd make little sense considering it's full of demons.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

No area has really felt that short yet, with the exception of Crystal Caves (and fuck that place) and Valley of Drakes (though that's just an interim area). I kinda like how so many places connect to each other and you get a bit of a "ahh so this is where that route goes" feeling.

I also don't have the sentiment against Blighttown most people have, the only thing bothersome there were the constant framerate drops. I kinda liked the xyz maze aspect.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Personally I wouldn't call being intentionally vague a delivery. In general I've got mixed feelings about that choice, since on the other hand they are clearly putting a lot of thought into all the possibilities they present and there's a lot of interesting implications, but on the other hand this choice means it will never actually live up to anything as the whole thing is ultimately left up in the air.

I think that's a matter of taste though; you prefer one of two different narrative styles. You found Dark Souls to be unnecessarily vague and Blook Omen to be focused. I found the Legacy of Kain to be a kind of over-the-top, comic book style narrative which used plot twists to drive the story and which rigidly controls what information the player has in service of surprising him/her with it later. (which I'm not knocking, btw, it can be pretty enjoyable)

Meanwhile, I found the Dark Souls narrative to be refreshingly respectful of the player's style; it feels no need to force the narrative upon the player and it doesn't care if you don't want to engage with the background story. If you are someone who cares about investigating the backstory, you will find hints that tantalize without removing the sense of mystery. If not, you can just go through the game and take everything at face value.

Plus the tone differences are huge (and hugely important to the experience of the games).

And it's not the trope, it's the fact that this stuff is REALLY specifically similar to what was done in Blood Omen. You can also draw other very very close similarities, like the stuff Seath is doing in his Archives and what Bane and Dejoule were doing in Dark Eden.

While I see your point about there being a suggestive number of points of similarity, I disagree on their level of specificity; I see the similarities between them as being fairly high level, with some significant differences in their specifics.

A vampire anti-hero out to regain his humanity and get revenge on those who doomed him to his fate is fairly distinguishable from a cursed undead, exiled from society and thrown into a strange land. The question of whether Gwyn and his allies were even fallen good guys in the first place is far more ambiguous than the moral value of the guardians before they were driven insane. Plus, IIRC Nosgoth would be fine if it weren't for corruption of the Pillars, while in DS the world would have been fucked no matter what - the macguffin merely staves off the inevitable decline.

 

[Hobo Elf]

- At the end, the main character is presented with a binary choice of the world probably being less fucked but you dying, and the world most likely being totally fucked but you maybe getting to sit alone on the throne in perpetual darkness and decay

Disagree with you. Killing yourself to keep the first flame going is NOT the better choice. All you are doing is resetting an inevitable cycle. It'll all happen again. By letting the fire burn out you are basically telling the Gods to get fucked and making room for men to rule their destinies. Basically you are just ushering the Age of Men.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

- At the end, the main character is presented with a binary choice of the world probably being less fucked but you dying, and the world most likely being totally fucked but you maybe getting to sit alone on the throne in perpetual darkness and decay

Disagree with you. Killing yourself to keep the first flame going is NOT the better choice. All you are doing is resetting an inevitable cycle. It'll all happen again. By letting the fire burn out you are basically telling the Gods to get fucked and making room for men to rule their destinies. Basically you are just ushering the Age of Men.

A load of horseshit Kaathe is feeding the player. If you ask me, there are clearly only two outcomes from the Flame going out: 1) Everyone will become undead and eventually go Hollow, and die in eternal darkness as everything withers away. 2) The Abyss is let loose and everybody dies. Only the primordial serpents have something to gain from the Flame going out, humans would simply be fucked for good in short order.