From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Jasede]

This is why this game is so good... so many theories and they're all depressing.

 

[Damned Registrations]

- At the end, the main character is presented with a binary choice of the world probably being less fucked but you dying, and the world most likely being totally fucked but you maybe getting to sit alone on the throne in perpetual darkness and decay

Disagree with you. Killing yourself to keep the first flame going is NOT the better choice. All you are doing is resetting an inevitable cycle. It'll all happen again. By letting the fire burn out you are basically telling the Gods to get fucked and making room for men to rule their destinies. Basically you are just ushering the Age of Men.

I'm actually convinced it's not a cycle at all. You had to gather and burn up 4 really bigass souls to link the fire again. When it starts to die again, what can be offered up? I suppose there are other gods left somewhere outside of Lordran, but it certainly doesn't strike me as a sustainable thing. I think the main purpose in linking the fire is giving Gwyndolin a bit longer to play house in Anor Londo. God only knows what the consequences of killing Nito or the Bed of Chaos are.

As for letting the fire burn out... I'm pretty shaky on what that could mean. There are indicators that the fire causes undeath and the dark staves it off, after all. But it seems rather counterintuitive that man would be better off in a world without fire, or possibly even sunlight. Also, Frampt is definitely feeding the player at least as much horseshit as Kaathe. That much is obvious if you know anything about Anor Londo. Given that he's clearly lying to you out of self interest, I doubt linking the flames is bad for him. And since since the gods in this game are clearly fallible, we don't even know if Gwyn linking the fire in the first place was a good thing for humans OR the gods. He could have been duped too.

Ultimately, we don't know enough about what the fire meant in the first place to judge the endings very well.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The way I see it, the serpents are playing both bases. In case Kaathe manages to convince a dipshit to let the Fire go out, they win completely since they clearly have absolutely no problems with the Abyss or darkness. On the other hand, if the reset button is pushed Frampt has secured a gravy train from tranny mansion.

Also, I would say that the indication was that the fading of the Fire is what caused undeath, and when it goes out eventually everyone will be Hollow. At the very least, total stagnation is to be expected, though what happened to Oolacile with the Abyss would suggest that the limbo-like Age of Dragons wouldn't be what happens when the Fire dies out. Of course, there's no telling what Humanities are exactly either. On the other hand, the game has a lot of "humans suck lol" here and there, so even if Kaathe was telling the truth (yeah right) and Age of Dark would be an age of humans, the general indication is that "but humans aren't worth jack shit."

Another thing I've started to wonder is that in a way it seems that the Lordvessel doesn't serve the function as the actual power used to link the Fire again, or if it's actually just a key for opening the Kiln and the actual process of generating a sufficient soul for the rekindling is entirely just in the journey there.


On the other hand, it's entirely possible that whatever happens in Lordran stays in Lordran, seeing how they mentioned that time kinda doesn't work in Lordran like it does everywhere else.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Don't believe Frampt's lies. All his talk about you being a chosen undead are obvious manipulations. You aren't a special hero. You are just a dude who happened to be a bit more badass than the rest of the poor losers who ended up undead. The first flame doesn't represent life for humanity, it represents life for the Gods. It's where they got their powers from and it's one of your missions to go around killing big bad guys and taking their souls which were taken from the first flames. It is slightly suggested that humans aren't creatures of fire and light, but of dark, and that the abyssal creatures are primeval humans. Fighting the abyss without fire won't be an impossible task. We managed to kill Manus, who seems to be pretty high up, if not the top cat in the hierarchy of the abyss.

 

[praetor]

Of course, there's no telling what Humanities are exactly either.

it's been confirmed by the dev that humanities are fragments of the dark soul

Another thing I've started to wonder is that in a way it seems that the Lordvessel doesn't serve the function as the actual power used to link the Fire again, or if it's actually just a key for opening the Kiln and the actual process of generating a sufficient soul for the rekindling is entirely just in the journey there.

the lordvessel is just a vessel for the lord souls (so that you can open the door to the kiln). your soul is the one to rekindle the fire regardless of your journey since you're "teh chozun one!11!1!1!" (according to frampt, of course ), it's the power of the soul that rekindles the first flame (and thus you burn up and sacrifice yourself just so that the tranny ho and the phallic snake can rule without needing to worry about gwyn and/or the other big shot lords/gods)

you're all also forgetting that there were other Dark Lords before you (and "ages (or at least short periods ) of dark"). and that the serpents are obviously servants of The Dark Lord (tm)

there is no "good" or "bad" ending.

Don't believe Frampt's lies. All his talk about you being a chosen undead are obvious manipulations. You aren't a special hero. You are just a dude who happened to be a bit more badass than the rest of the poor losers who ended up undead. The first flame doesn't represent life for humanity, it represents life for the Gods. It's where they got their powers from and it's one of your missions to go around killing big bad guys and taking their souls which were taken from the first flames. It is slightly suggested that humans aren't creatures of fire and light, but of dark, and that the abyssal creatures are primeval humans. Fighting the abyss without fire won't be an impossible task. We managed to kill Manus, who seems to be pretty high up, if not the top cat in the hierarchy of the abyss.

pretty spot on. "humanity" is what makes humans (or at least undead ) "human" and those are fragments of the dark soul, the same dark soul taken by the pygmy (the first dark lord), the progenitor of humans

 

[Surf Solar]

Don't believe Frampt's lies. All his talk about you being a chosen undead are obvious manipulations. You aren't a special hero. You are just a dude who happened to be a bit more badass than the rest of the poor losers who ended up undead.

How come the player doesn't go batshit insane/truly hollow upon dieing like the rest of the people?

 

[Hobo Elf]

Don't believe Frampt's lies. All his talk about you being a chosen undead are obvious manipulations. You aren't a special hero. You are just a dude who happened to be a bit more badass than the rest of the poor losers who ended up undead.

How come the player doesn't go batshit insane/truly hollow upon dieing like the rest of the people?

1. Hollowing out doesn't mean death, it means losing hope and in turn losing your sanity as well. Pay attention to the people who go hollow. It's not because they died, but because they gave up on their cause. The PC can only truly hollow out if the player gives up on the game after dying too much.

2. Who's to say that the PC isn't insane?

 

[Surf Solar]

True, I didn't think about that. I just thought that dieing=losing humanity, and since all the other NPC all do cling to the last bit of remaining humanity that there is would have something to do with going hollow. Likely a combination of this + the losing hope/faith thingy you mentionend.

Regarding your second point, sounds like the "Indoctrination theory!!11" some ME3 fans have. But here it seems to be actually possible, true.

 

[Jasede]

Losing hope - what a great theme for a game. This is the goddamn Torment of console games. Except, I dare-say, more concisely written.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Losing hope - what a great theme for a game. This is the goddamn Torment of console games. Except, I dare-say, more concisely written.

Yes, what gets lost in all of the talk about how "hard" it is, is how haunting it is. Really one of the absolute best games I've played at creating a sense of melancholy.

ETA: I think the major difference between the two, which explains Dark Souls comparative restraint, is that Dark Souls is an exploration of emotion, which requires the use of tone, while Torment is an exploration of ideas, which requires words.

 

[Damned Registrations]

As a bit more to throw on the lore discussion, after starting up yet another new character and watching the intro, they make it very clear that the first lords came from the Dark- including Gwyn. Then they found the flame. They also talk a bit about this being the age of disparity; and though they don't mention it directly, I think theres an implication of one of those disparities being the power of those who found the flame and those who did not.

One could also make the argument that without the flame to create light; the concept of 'dark' doesn't exist. The age before flames wasn't the age of dark either after all. The creatures of the dark weren't conceived of as dark and dead except in the context of those with flame being light and alive in comparison.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Or, the disparity comes from there being SOMETHING instead of the everpresent and everlasting unchanging constant that was before the Flame. It's not that there is no concept of dark and light or dead and alive (hehee, notice how the disparity between the living and the dead starts to go away as the Fire is fading), it's that there is no concept of anything except a limbo-like nothing.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

First few stanzas of the introduction indicate that there was existence before the flame:

In the Age of Ancients,
The world was unformed, shrouded by fog
A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons
But then there was Fire
And with Fire came Disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course.. Light and Dark.
Then, from the Dark, They came
And found the Souls of Lords within the flame.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Existence, but not really ANYTHING. Just unchanging nothing.

EDIT: Actually, that got me thinking a bit... Maybe because the Fire has been, now the primordial limbo-like state from the Age of Ancients is completely impossible? See, disparity now exists, so if the Fire goes out there will be only darkness and death left, as an alternate state was introduced.

 

[Cosmo]

As a bit more to throw on the lore discussion, after starting up yet another new character and watching the intro, they make it very clear that the first lords came from the Dark- including Gwyn.

The intro is voluntarily misleading : it says "They found the Lord's souls", but who's "they" ? It could as well be the ancestors of humanity animating the Lords by finding their souls...

Existence, but not really ANYTHING. Just unchanging nothing.

That's what i'd say actually : this "disparity" created by the coming of fire describes in fact Order being imposed on "nothingness", thus shaping the world. Disparity is in fact differenciation where before there was only the same : Fire cleaves Nothing in two, creating couples of polarized "values" (light and dark, heat and cold, etc) on which rests the order of the world.

And if we go wild a little, perhaps the age of fire is only the interplay between those extremes, with maybe gods being on the side of permanency and light, and humans on the side of time and darkness...
So when the flames fade, everything starts to mix up and stop making sense (some people turn undead, time behaves strangely, etc), which in turn enables humans like the PC to intervene in godly matters like the kindling of the flame, and ultimately start the cycle anew. Or refuse to and begin another age.

 

[Machocruz]

This is why could never be a storyfag, even if I wanted to. I've played the game 3 times and I still couldn't tell you what the story was. What you guys are saying is news to me. I'm just unable to retain that kind of information. I can vaguely remember what Silent Hill was about, but forget anything longer or subtler.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Existence, but not really ANYTHING. Just unchanging nothing.

EDIT: Actually, that got me thinking a bit... Maybe because the Fire has been, now the primordial limbo-like state from the Age of Ancients is completely impossible? See, disparity now exists, so if the Fire goes out there will be only darkness and death left, as an alternate state was introduced.

I read it as saying that the archtrees and primordial dragons inhabited a somewhat grey world before the coming of the flame. But since all of these elements were of an eternal unchanging variety, what the fire introduced seems to be, fundamentally, the capacity of things to change. In other words, eternal stasis was replaced with growth and decay. Now that the period of growth is coming to an end as the fire runs out of fuel, decay becomes ascendant.

 

[Damned Registrations]

As a bit more to throw on the lore discussion, after starting up yet another new character and watching the intro, they make it very clear that the first lords came from the Dark- including Gwyn.

The intro is voluntarily misleading : it says "They found the Lord's souls", but who's "they" ? It could as well be the ancestors of humanity animating the Lords by finding their souls...

Except it shows Nito reaching out and grabbing a flame, and the word 'They' is accompanied by a shot of shambling zombies. I don't see why he'd be the sole exception.

The picture I get is that the first 4 lords walked out of the dark, found the flame, and took it for themselves. Except the pygmy, who stayed behind in the dark. Gwynn, Nito and the Witch all came from the dark and became lords by taking the flame. Then Gwynn declared war on the dragons, which had been around since the begining. There is no indication that anyone ever came from the fire itself. Only that the fire granted 'life' to those who came from the dark. And I seriously question the idea that the fire is granting real life, since your undeath is clearly linked to the bonfies, the darksign is a smoldering mark ringed with fire, and the place closest to the great kiln, Lordran, is the most fucked up and riddled with undead and monsters. If things really were all peachy keen back when Gwyn was alive, it seems like it was only due to such an overabundance of fire and/or humanity that all the undead were all fleshy and lifelike, akin to vampires that had recently fed.

I read it as saying that the archtrees and primordial dragons inhabited a somewhat grey world before the coming of the flame. But since all of these elements were of an eternal unchanging variety, what the fire introduced seems to be, fundamentally, the capacity of things to change. In other words, eternal stasis was replaced with growth and decay. Now that the period of growth is coming to an end as the fire runs out of fuel, decay becomes ascendant.

I'm with you on the eternal stasis in the age of ancients, but I think what the fire did was not so much introduce change as just break a bunch of shit. Now there were broken parts, hot parts, and cold parts. Dragons that had died, and life spawned from whatever the remains of the broken/dead shit was. Without the fire, the trend towards entropy begins (just like in reality) but not in any sort of impending doom sense. Fire was just what stirred things up, the capacity for life and death was always in the stuff of the world, it had just wound down to eternal stasis long ago. The world could easily continue to grow and evolve for millions of years without the fire around.

The fire is essentially just an immense, alien power that has the capacity to destroy and upset that which is otherwise immortal and unchanging. One could make the argument that the only people made better off by this power are the ones who possess it, and it really is in the best interests of humans to not link the fire and return that power to Gwyndolin and Frampt.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I'd say undeath is not linked to the Fire existing, but the Fire fading out. Now that there are only embers, the disparity between dead and living is breaking down, giving rise to the cursed undead. When the Fire finally goes out, everything will be undead or just plain dead.

I also don't really buy that the gods are a BAD thing in the DaS setting. There's no indication that any of them besides the axe murderer types and SMA are that bad, or really that involved aside of major events like the Four Kings problem. For the most part it seems humans benefit a lot from the Fire giving light and life to the world.

 

[Volrath]

Any more news on how they're going to fuck up the sequel?

 

[Jokulmorder]

I'd say undeath is not linked to the Fire existing, but the Fire fading out. Now that there are only embers, the disparity between dead and living is breaking down, giving rise to the cursed undead. When the Fire finally goes out, everything will be undead or just plain dead.

Since fragments of the Dark Soul, Humanity, let undead assume human form, I'm not sure the cure of the undead is connected to the fire fading out and the dark coming in. The Dark Soul seems to be getting stronger as the flame dies and the dark comes, so why would undeath be growing more common? Also, Gwyn was able to kindle the First Flame, yet there is no part in the lore where the curse of the undead stopped or slowed down. Shouldn't there be less undead after Gwyn gave life to the fire again?

I do agree that the gods are not a totally bad thing for humans, although Seathe was a pretty big jerk who kidnapped people and experimented on them.

 

[Cool name]

ITT Nyan does discover Vaarna would make a quite fine sorcerer.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

ITT Nyan does discover Vaarna would make a quite fine sorcerer.

Guess it's in the blood.

I'd say undeath is not linked to the Fire existing, but the Fire fading out. Now that there are only embers, the disparity between dead and living is breaking down, giving rise to the cursed undead. When the Fire finally goes out, everything will be undead or just plain dead.

Since fragments of the Dark Soul, Humanity, let undead assume human form, I'm not sure the cure of the undead is connected to the fire fading out and the dark coming in. The Dark Soul seems to be getting stronger as the flame dies and the dark comes, so why would undeath be growing more common? Also, Gwyn was able to kindle the First Flame, yet there is no part in the lore where the curse of the undead stopped or slowed down. Shouldn't there be less undead after Gwyn gave life to the fire again?

I do agree that the gods are not a totally bad thing for humans, although Seathe was a pretty big jerk who kidnapped people and experimented on them.

Well, the intro seemed to definately imply that the undead appear when the Fire is reduced to embers, in ever-increasing numbers as it grows weaker. There is also the fact that there doesn't appear to be a connection between Humanity and going Hollow for realz, as all the NPCs that go Hollow do so while retaining their Humanity, so it's clearly an inevitable mental development. In fact, I'd say the black sprites are probably more akin to a source of power than anything else. Personally I'd assume that kindling the Fire will take away the curse of the undead for a time... Assuming the time distortion in Lordran doesn't mean that whatever happens in Lordran stays in Lordran.

And as mentioned earlier all the crazy axe murderer types like Seath stayed behind in Lordran and thus don't affect the "real world" (seeing how Lordran is clearly a very, very different place from the rest of the world) anymore.

 

[Elwro]

I soloed Manus on my second try. Found Sif only later on.

But for the love of God I simply cannot fight Gwyn. I only managed to get him to 80% health once. If he hits me, that's it, even with a Black Knight Shield +5 and maximum stamina the fight is over since he will just keep hitting me five times and that's it (and when I'm staggered he will probably use this grab attack of his). So every 5 minutes (the run to the boss) I get just one chance to parry and the fight is over. I'm wearing Havel's Ring and FlameBite Ring; my encumbrance is 59.2 out of 120 load so I have some speed, I'm wearing Havel's set save for the Gold-Hemmed headwear.

I tried to use the rock to the left but he just went ON the rock and bashed me to death.

I can't run away to heal since he's too fast. Should I move to the full Gold-Hemmed set? Or should I ditch Havel's ring and just go slow? Is poise important in this fight?

Is Black Sword +5 a good weapon for him? That's the only one I was able to hit him with really. Tried Queelag's Furysword +5 and a Longsword +15 to take a shot at some lighter weapons but I died even faster.

Any pointers?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I hear that an easy way to beat Gwyn is to have maxed out Pyromancy Flame and then spam Great Combustion and Black Flame.