From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[praetor]

Gothic and Dark Souls have nothing in common. The great joy of Gothic series is the fucking BEST exploration ever made in a game, and tons of great options to solve quests and do stuff. Dark Souls highlights, on the other hand, is the wonderful combat, the atmosphere and the world & lore.

i disagree that they have nothing in common. at their core, they're both "open world akshun arrrr-pee-gees", and while Gothic does the more traditional side of rpgs better (as you mentioned, the quests and solutions), DkS's "akshun" part is multiple orders of magnitude better (by itself gothic's combat (and encounter design) is serviceable at best, and when compared to something like DkS or Dragon's Dogma or, satan forbid, a "purer" action slasher game like Blade of Darkness (a PC exclusive from almost 15 fucking years ago, for satans sake!) or DMC/NG and their ilk, it's abso-fucking-lutely horseshit. not even comparing Arcanum in TB to something like JA2 makes the difference clear enough). and while DkS is rather different in it's world design (the ever-present level-boss->level-boss "paradigm", and is relatively unique that way), because the "akshun" parts are so much better, the exploration feels so much more tense and rewarding so i disagree even with that part

 

[AngryEddy]

Anybody around 65+ in Oolacile township?

 

[LivingOne]

Gothic and Dark Souls have nothing in common. The great joy of Gothic series is the fucking BEST exploration ever made in a game, and tons of great options to solve quests and do stuff. Dark Souls highlights, on the other hand, is the wonderful combat, the atmosphere and the world & lore.

I dunno,I'd argue DaS has better exploration too.Generally dungeon exploration feels more involving to me than an open world one because you are in a much better crafted enviroment,checking were to go and all the options/obstacles provided by level designers to decide how to go on.Comparatevly while an open world offers even more options to proceed that also means it more often falls into the trap "anything goes to proceed".Granted I think this applies much more to TES than Gothic(and in fact I'd argue that the latter has a better open world than the former precisely because its level design is closer to the one in dungeon crawlers as opposed to being mostly a plain terrain with mountains,cities,caves slapped on top) but I still would say it's not compltely immune to that criticism.
And then there are the rewards for exploration where Dark Souls offers you bonfires,shortcuts and cool equipment as opposed to Gothic's countless and thus,individually,unintresting "mini-curatives".

Nevertheless they are both

 

[felipepepe]

Dark Souls does have a wonderful level design, and it's very clever on how stuff links together, but it features little exploration per se. Your paths are clear, besides a couple of illusionary walls. It doesn't compare to Gothic & Risen, where everywhere you find hidden stuff, alternate paths, cool little area flavors and all that.

Let's put it this way: Someone trying to find everything in Gothic will be scanning every mm of the area, trying to jump into high places and look for caves. Someone trying to find everything in Dark Souls will be looking for glowing items and attacking every wall.

 

[LivingOne]

hmm..true that too,depending on the area(like depths vs Anor londo).I guess I'm more of a dungeoncrawl-fag then openworld-fag.(in fact I liked dark arisen more than vanilla DD thinking about it...)

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Anybody around 65+ in Oolacile township?

Got an SL 70 dude in there, sup?

 

[Cowboy Moment]

"Dungeons" in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls aren't that good though, when compared to "pure" dungeon crawlers, or even something like BG2. Dark Souls, in terms of world structure, is more or less a 3D metroidvania, so quite far away from Gothic's open world. What I would agree with, is that it gives a similar feeling of danger and adventure when exploring; you always have multiple ways you could be heading, and each of them could possibly be much more dangerous than you can handle.

Both games even throw this in the player's face at the beginning. You can go either to the cemetery or New Londo straight from Firelink Shrine, and get anally raped there, while in Gothic, straying from the road while walking to Old Camp will promptly get you eaten by a wolf of overgrown chicken.

 

[DragoFireheart]

"Dungeons" in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls aren't that good though, when compared to "pure" dungeon crawlers, or even something like BG2.

Agreed. They felt like a 3D Metroidvania game. I never felt I was exploring a "dungeon" but rather going from level to level.

felipepepe

Contrast that with Dragon's Dogma, which did have dungeons you could explore and it felt like a dungeon as well.

 

[AngryEddy]

Anybody around 65+ in Oolacile township?

Got an SL 70 dude in there, sup?

XmXFLUXmX is my Steam, send me a friend request. I'm looking for PvP.

 

[praetor]

XmXFLUXmX is my Steam, send me a friend request. I'm looking for PvP.

if you're looking for PvP (i assume "serious" duelling?) and not random invading in the usual places (AL, Sen's, BT, PW), why aren't you at the "usual" PvP level (120-125)?

 

[Heresiarch]

I must say despite how small Dark Souls' levels are technically speaking compared to say Gothic, DS surpasses Gothic much more in the actual level design (though that's also not very fair due to graphics limitation). For example I have hardly any memories of Gothic's dungeons, but for Dark Souls...I can still remember falling down into a shithole in the Depths and thereby became completely lost, surrounded by corridors covered in slimy shit and wandering giant-eyed geckos, without any knowledge about where the bonfire nor the general direction toward the surface was, I almost felt my character would kneel down in the shitwater crying.

Also the first time experience in Blighttown, Catacombs, Anor Londo, New Londo, Sen's Fortress, Tombe of Giants...sure, there are ACT or RPG with levels of grander designs, but nothing gives that depressed feeling of getting lost, alone in a dark hole (or in the case of Anor Londo, in an ancient, desolated massive city, not unlike in the city of the Elder Things).

Unfortunately I have pretty good memories and very strong direction abilities, combined with how strong the impressions DS levels can give, all the levels are pretty much a cake walk for me now.

 

[AngryEddy]

XmXFLUXmX is my Steam, send me a friend request. I'm looking for PvP.

if you're looking for PvP (i assume "serious" duelling?) and not random invading in the usual places (AL, Sen's, BT, PW), why aren't you at the "usual" PvP level (120-125)?

Because I get less matches at 120.

 

[AngryEddy]

Praetor, i'm waiting.

 

[praetor]

Praetor, i'm waiting.

i think you meant DramaticPopcorn. you'll have to get to 120-125 to duel with me (although i have been toying with the idea of a lower level char for PvPing in AL, Sens, Buttown, PW to annoy some newbies )

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

lvl 47 after taurus?! holy fuck, talk about overcompensating... and holy fucking jesus at that amount of spells! you can kill O&S with half that in NG+ (recently used 3-4 casts of crystal soul mass, full casts of both lances and 2 casts of pursuers when i helped Multidirectional with the 4Kunts in NG+ and i even missed with a couple of spears and iirc one hcsm)! goddamn, were you really that bad at the game that you had to overlevel/overgear so much? did you have +15 weapons for the gaping dragon or something? jesus...

Obviously I didn't have +15 weapons until later due to lacking appropriate farming zones. But I was SL100 when I first went to Sen's.

And to me it's really fairly simple: The sole purpose of any game is to be beaten. Winning is the primary and single most important goal. Losing is unacceptable. Therefore the logical course is to always minimize the chances of losing. And so in a game like Dark Souls it's preferable to be overprepared rather than underprepared.

 

[Serious_Business]

the sole purpose of any game is to be beaten

Sad town

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

the sole purpose of any game is to be beaten

Sad town

Tell me about it. I told you there'd probably be a fundamentally different psychological background to it.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

But I was SL100 when I first went to Sen's.

And so in a game like Dark Souls it's preferable to be overprepared rather than underprepared.

in game like dark souls its preferable to go blind and fearful of new encounters. not streamroll everything cause you are 60 lvls higher than you should be.

 

[praetor]

And so in a game like Dark Souls it's preferable to be overprepared rather than underprepared.

can't tell if i'm on gamespot or codex any more. wow

 

[Niektory]

Obviously I didn't have +15 weapons until later due to lacking appropriate farming zones. But I was SL100 when I first went to Sen's.

And to me it's really fairly simple: The sole purpose of any game is to be beaten. Winning is the primary and single most important goal. Losing is unacceptable. Therefore the logical course is to always minimize the chances of losing. And so in a game like Dark Souls it's preferable to be overprepared rather than underprepared.

 

[Multidirectional]

And to me it's really fairly simple: The sole purpose of any game is to be beaten.

What about having fun? Is grinding to have 2x SL than what you'd ever need before progressing a fun way to play for you? Just go in, die a few times and learn to avoid it. It will still be way less time wasted than doing this grinding nonsense. I can't even begin to imagine levels of tedium it must take to get to SL 100 before Sen's. You don't even need that for endgame, for fuck's sake.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Yeah, at like SL80 even the DLC kinda becomes trivial as a melee character, since you can basically bruteforce every boss there with the amount of damage, stamina and hp that you have. Bonus points if you kindle every bonfire up to 20, which I'm certain Vaarna did as well.

Edit: This is assuming that you're using a cohesive, specialized build, and not a jack of all trades most new players end up with. Those can still have trouble at SL80.

 

[Kanedias]

Obviously I didn't have +15 weapons until later due to lacking appropriate farming zones. But I was SL100 when I first went to Sen's.

 

[Tripicus]

And to me it's really fairly simple: The sole purpose of any game is to be beaten.

I would think you would want to minimize the amount of time required to beat a game if that's the case. Grinding and over-preparing is generally horribly inefficient early in an RPG, given that XP/souls or whatever is far easier to come by later in the game, and the biggest challenges where you need to be prepared occur later in the game anyway.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yeah, at like SL80 even the DLC kinda becomes trivial as a melee character, since you can basically bruteforce every boss there with the amount of damage, stamina and hp that you have. Bonus points if you kindle every bonfire up to 20, which I'm certain Vaarna did as well.

Edit: This is assuming that you're using a cohesive, specialized build, and not a jack of all trades most new players end up with. Those can still have trouble at SL80.

Jack of all trades, since I decided to rather take an exhaustive tour of the game since it's too easy to remember everything so replays would be boring.

And to me it's really fairly simple: The sole purpose of any game is to be beaten.

What about having fun? Is grinding to have 2x SL than what you'd ever need before progressing a fun way to play for you? Just go in, die a few times and learn to avoid it. It will still be way less time wasted than doing this grinding nonsense. I can't even begin to imagine levels of tedium it must take to get to SL 100 before Sen's. You don't even need that for endgame, for fuck's sake.

Like I said, a very different psychological background behind the rationale. One of us is a depressed autism spectrum person, and it ain't you.

A demonstration: Fun = winning.