From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

It works both ways. DkS1 was more than a decent game, but after playing DeS you just couldn't feel the souls magic anymore. It wasn't there. So I guess it depends on what game you played first.

 

I played Demon's Souls second and still loved it. I liked DaS2 well enough but it just isn't as good. I guess it's good for challenging combat against such foes as "what the fuck is that hitbox" and "why does that giant dude with a sword pivot 180 degrees while swinging so he can still hit me jesus christ"

 

Playing Dark Souls again after finishing it the first time just doesn't feel the same now. The souls magic isn't there anymore whaaa totally shit game.

Seriously. I think you can apply this argument to every game ever made. The first time you play a game is always going to have the most "magic", i don't see how this subjective experience can be used to objectively weight the merits or demerits of other games of the same type.

 

Just trying to keep it short. But if you insist:

1. The major one: DeS is simply harder and more unforgiving. DkS has MUCH more checkpoints and easily replenishable source of healing. Being hollow isn't much of an issue in DkS, plus it's pretty damn easy to regain human form. In DeS you had to either use pretty damn rare consumable or kill non-respawning boss (if we speak SP, that is). The world tendency system added to difficulty too, basically the principle was "the more you die - the harder it gets", which is absolutely crazy concept. In a good way. DkS is much more easier in that regard. Of course, most bosses of DeS are not very challenging, but that game is still the hardest anong souls series.

2. Obtaining platinum trophy in DeS is waaay harder than in any other souls game. I got all three and you can trust me on that: the stone farming in DeS takes hell of a time. But more importanly, you have to dive into tendency system and go a pretty long way to obtain most of the unique stuff, which is lootable only on critical tendencies. DkS games have nothing like that. The stone system is primitive as fuck, and pretty much all uniques, even the most tricky ones, are obtained easily. Well, DkS1 at least had some "tail hunting", DkS2 had nothing at all.

These two are mesurable and objective: the difficulty of actual levels and the depth of game mechanics. But aside from that, I got a shitton of subjective stuff on why DeS worked better, like visuals, atmosphere, music. Personal liking stuff.

 

Thing is, the Souls games aren't just of "the same type", they're basically sequels with the same core gameplay for the most part. Furthermore, they're unique enough in their design, that the first time you play one becomes a special kind of journey of wonder and terror, as you try to master the combat mechanics, struggle through the opening section, constantly worry about losing your souls, get rekt after wandering into dangerous areas, fall off ledges multiple times, die to your first Black Knight, and the list goes on and on.

Having finished a Souls game, you're comfortable enough with the idea of it, that it simply isn't as impactful anymore, even if it's a new game with completely different content. First time I played Dark Souls, I was really nervous about losing my souls, and very careful. In DeS/DaS2, when I die and lose 50k souls, the reaction is more along the lines of "Oh well, shit happens.".

I guess my point is, there's a certain kind of "Souls magic" that disappears with familiarity, and so the first playthrough will always be special. This has no bearing on any kind of objective assessment of a game's quality, but is worth having in mind when reading impressions of other people. Of all the Souls games, for most people, their favourite is the one they played first, for instance.

After recently replaying DeS and paying more attention to this, I can safely say that lots of people who idolize the game readily ignore hit detection problems in that game because it gives them "the feels". DeS has tons of hitbox problems, weird janky animations, inconsistent recovery times, arbitrary hyperarmor, and even completely nonsensical iframes in the middle of enemy attacks (this one is actually easy to check, as if happens in 1-1, if you want to see for yourself). It's fine if you like the game because of the atmosphere, art design and level design, but it's disingenuous to criticize DaS2 for hitbox problems, while putting DeS on a pedestal.

And yes, it's definitely better for enemies not to track you with overhead swings, so you can merrily strafe around the attack for an easy backstab. Truly the pinnacle of challenging melee combat design. I mean, why should evading the attack actually require good timing and familiarity with the enemy's moveset?

And yes, in terms of general combat, enemy design, and boss design, DaS2 is much better than DeS on average. It's also better than DaS1 in my opinion, but that game is much more polished, and actually doesn't have any weird hitbox or animation problems, so I can see why people would like it more. But DeS? Either rose-tinted glasses or willful ignorance, imo.

Edit:
Grimwulf, difficulty in DeS is very uneven though. Shrine of Storms is very challenging, as are some of the later parts of Boletarian Palace and Valley of Defilement. Everything else? Not so much. Also, the difficulty comes more from more sparse checkpoints, rather than enemies and combat mechanics, which are among the easiest in the series. Especially grasses make the game so much easier than it should be, with their super-fast healing animation, instant health restore, and ability to have an unlimited amount of them.

 

No, I agree with you there, and it's why I still prefer DaS. DeS is very clearly the first game in the series and comes with a lot of rough edges because of it. I can forgive it those because I was going back to it from the sequel, I was expecting less polish, and I actually found it a lot harder than DaS because of many of the things you mention. Of course I'm going to expect a little bit more from the third game in the series.

This is hardly the problem. I haven't watched the rest of the video (and don't care to) but look at 39:50 here for an example. Bad hitboxes plus overgenerous tracking meant that I spent half my time hiding behind a shield and poking to work out what the hell the boss's attack was actually hitting. And remember those dog-lizard things in the Gutter? Christ. When I first saw a Turtle Knight swivel around at lightspeed in the middle of a slow swing and smack me, I burst out laughing. The intent was obviously to make rolling less trivial, which is a good thing and a necessary change, but I feel like it was implemented very lazily. It's sloppier than DeS ever was, or at least more noticeable. However, I concede that this is possibly only because there are far more humanoid enemies with clearly telegraphed attacks, overhead swings and so on, so when things get a bit fucked up it's easily spotted.

 

its not. its fucking cheap and simply unfair.
It has superb atmosphere, great npc and some neat levels but it comes with tons of cheap shit. OHK everywhere, 5-2 swamps, fucking Black Phantoms in BWT etc.
I like how people bitch about ambushes and fighting "hordes" of enemies in DS2 when Des is full of that shit.

Also fuck farming pure bladestone and colorless demon soul.

 

It's not like I'm saying DeS is perfect. The hitbox is definetely broken, PvP was utter shit (glad they fixed it DkS1 and polished to perfection in DkS2). But "cheap shit" is exactly what made DeS work for me. I didn't feel myself comfortable. The swamp was horrible, the descend to Old Hero was horrible, Latria fucking Tower was horrible - damn, almost every single location made you want to whine. And that's good, even if it means unfair conditions. It just makes your skills develop even further.

DkS fixed a lot of broken things and brought actually challenging bosses. But they should've kept the brutal difficulty of levels. They are just too comfortable in DkS.

 

reported for trollain

 

I'm speaking about ps3 PvP obviously. And it IS as perfect as it gets.

 

I'm not using any firebombs, those are for girlymen.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

And die you will. Don't take any firebombs into Depths either, that would be severely unmanly.

 

Ok, fair enough. The hitbox complaints are fair, and there are certainly some instances of very bad hitboxes in DaS2 which actually make the game less enjoyable - those dogs in the Gutter being a prime example. Still, for most instances, and the ones in that video fall under this, it's quite rare to run into them. Like, I've rolled away from an ogre's grab attack in DaS2 lots of times, but have never encountered that teleporting glitch. It happens once in a blue moon, and sucks when it does, but it's not that big of a deal.

On a related note, that guy (in the video) complains about enemy variety as well, which seems crazy to me. Sure, DaS2 has a lot of humanoid enemies, but the variety of movesets and behaviour among these is much greater than in previous Souls games. I think it was Mikayel who remarked on this recently in the DaS2 thread - you can load up DaS1 after not playing for a year, run up to the Black Knight in Undead Burg and comfortably parry him to death without taking any damage; try the same thing with the Heide Knight in FoFG and the likeliest result is much rape. The latter simply has a much more unpredictable and "weird" moveset.

Real men 2hand an ultra greatsword and never use ranged attacks. The true Dark Souls experience.

 

Surely you meant going in naked and using fists only. They still haven't patched the bugs that make you get weapons and items.

 

Naked isn't much different from normal. Naked and SL1 is just a lot of pyromancy and you take forever to kill DLC bosses. With further weapon/pyro restrictions, you take forever to kill anything, and the game becomes tedious as fuck.

 

99 humanity gives you more phys. protection than the best armor.

Get the fire keeper soul from New Londo at start, dupe until 99 and become god.

Edit: apparently it scales to your level? No wonder I had 200+ armor from humanity alone at SL1...

 

FUCK YES KILLED THE CAPRA DEMON

And I did with my Uchigatana--a glorious weapon folded 900 million times over.

 

Glorious Nippon steel is good, isn't it? Wait until you acquire some buffs for it (i.e Sunlight Blade). Nothing can really stand against you when you can just R1 spam and everything dies.

Four Three Kings is a prime example. It starts off like this: But then turns into this:

 

You stop getting defensive benefits after 10 humanity

 

I think that only applies to item discovery?

According to this you get ~100 defense boost at SL1. So I guess I was exaggerating. Still, the bonus was noticeable when invading.

 

please take that bethesda filth out of Souls thread

 

The depth is legitimately gross. I haven't had a reaction like this to a game in a long time. I actually stopped playing and took a break.

Getting back into it, I appear to have been cursed by something that is a cross between a frog and Jimbob's avatar.

 

The Depths? You're only just beginning your descent into hell. Wait until you get to the next area.