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From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

Declinator

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Seriously? You can't tell the difference between better and easier? Learn English guys, the problem here is obviously that you do not understand what I'm saying.

it seems like they are making a blocking style more viable, and the twitchy spastic sideroll action game style of playing less of a god mode.

Usually god mode is considered somewhat easier than playing a game normally.

even having a light shield with decent resistance decently upgraded (heater is solid, towe/caduceus with 3.0 weight and 69 stability at +10 is pretty awesome for pretty much the whole game bar the dlc) will make you lose very little stamina... much less than fucking rolling. rolling needs tighter/more precise timing and stamina management than blocking (unless you use unupgraded shit-tier shields like large leather or something)

When facing enemies like Kalameet or Artorias where I two-handed a sword and just roll-dodged the attacks I didn't really need to even care about stamina. Rolling uses very little stamina compared to blocking with a standard shield (Heater/Black Knight etc.) I haven't really ever used the greatshields so it may very well be the case that those use less stamina than rolling.

I personally think that blocking is generally speaking the easier option but rolling is obviously better against at least some bosses (e.g. Kalameet, Artorias, O&S, Sif.) On the other hand just wading through the levels and fighting against the mooks, blocking is easily the better one. Then there are bosses where a mixture of the two seems to be the best option (Manus.)

If we're talking solely effectiveness then isn't spamming magic both the easiest and the best style as far as PvE is considered? I haven't even tried magic outside Cast Light but that's what it has looked like in some videos I've seen.

I don't really see it as a bad thing that sometimes a certain style is more effective. And let's face it, Dark Souls is more of an action game than it is an RPG. I don't know why you would need to grind with the blocking style as even without grinding you'd probably reach at least lvl 75 or something like that and thus could easily have 40 endurance which is the most important thing for blocking style and still have plenty of points for vitality/strength/dexterity or what have you.

the twitchy spastic sideroll action game style of playing

Rolling is more about recognizing the pattern and timing correctly than it is about fast reaction time. PvP may be more twitchy of course.
 

DragoFireheart

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dude, don't be a fucking moron like gouda:

What the fuck is this supposed to mean?

Blocking via Shield != High Poise Armor. Yes, blocking can make some fights easier, but there are an equal number or even greater amount where dodging makes it much easier.

I'm talking more about boss fights though. For regular enemies you should either be parrying them or performing backstabs, neither of which requires dodging or a high stability shield (can't parry with a tower shield anyways). For anything that can't be parried or backstabed it comes down to the enemy.

EDIT:
Strength weapon w/ High Stability shield is not easy mod. Strength weapons are actually challenging to use compared to derpatanas or speaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars. I still stand by my statement of most derp: high poise, fast/flip roll, spear, dark magic. Moonlight Butterfly Horn with Dark Bead and Silver Knight shield and solid poise is lol worthy.
 
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aris

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Usually god mode is considered somewhat easier than playing a game normally.
Unfortunate choice of words that I corrected. They clearly didn't understand what I was actually saying.

Otherwise I agree with you 100%. And yes, magic is much easier than playing melee. soul spear and beads make every boss in NG a walk in the park.
 
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praetor

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What the fuck is this supposed to mean?

Blocking via Shield != High Poise Armor. Yes, blocking can make some fights easier, but there are an equal number or even greater amount where dodging makes it much easier.

sorry, misquoted you, meant to quote this:

Fast/Flip roll is a crutch for noobs.

because mastering blocking is really easy (i'm not saying that mastering rolling is hard, just slightly harder than blocking) and acquiring a good stability shield even easier (eagle, especially pre-patch, balder, sliver knight if you have low str, otherwise any greatshield) because the vast majority of attacks by the vast majority of enemies do barely more than a dent on your stamina with 75+ stability (just try going through the game with the Artorias GS and laugh at each and every attack the game throws at you)

so you either don't know the meanings of the words "crutch" and/or "noobs" or are just butthurt about fast/flip rolling for some reason

When facing enemies like Kalameet or Artorias where I two-handed a sword and just roll-dodged the attacks I didn't really need to even care about stamina. Rolling uses very little stamina compared to blocking with a standard shield (Heater/Black Knight etc.) I haven't really ever used the greatshields so it may very well be the case that those use less stamina than rolling.

I personally think that blocking is generally speaking the easier option but rolling is obviously better against at least some bosses (e.g. Kalameet, Artorias, O&S, Sif.) On the other hand just wading through the levels and fighting against the mooks, blocking is easily the better one. Then there are bosses where a mixture of the two seems to be the best option (Manus.)

Sif really has only one attack that drains lots of stamina, and it's rather easy to just stay below his belly and spam attacks, O&S are more about separating them and picking carefully your attacks, which is equally viable/effective with both approaches. as for Kal/Manus/Artorias, i did put a caveat "bar the DLC" in my post :P

If we're talking solely effectiveness then isn't spamming magic both the easiest and the best style as far as PvE is considered? I haven't even tried magic outside Cast Light but that's what it has looked like in some videos I've seen.

it is and i noted so in one of my earlier posts. magic has been easy mode since DeS

EDIT:
EDIT:
Strength weapon w/ High Stability shield is not easy mod. Strength weapons are actually challenging to use compared to derpatanas or speaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars. I still stand by my statement of most derp: high poise, fast/flip roll, spear, dark magic. Moonlight Butterfly Horn with Dark Bead and Silver Knight shield and solid poise is lol worthy.

lolwut? str weapons do an obscene amount of damage, and with high-stability greatshields you don't even need any armour and/or anything faster than midroll. just block+attack immediately to strike while the counter damage animation for max damage=most shit ded in a couple of hits. not to mention the godly amount of poise-damage you'll be dealing will stagger even some bosses in a few hits

magic is the only "easy mode", but blocking is definitely easier than dodging, and just taking a look at some vids by on jewtube made by barely-functioning retards will provide all the evidence you need. and most of what you mention towards the end sounds suspiciously like "pvp butthurt" (because spears do little damage and consume a fuckton of stamina if you attack with a shield raised)

Unfortunate choice of words that I corrected. They clearly didn't understand what I was actually saying.

and neither do you
 
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DragoFireheart

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because mastering blocking is really easy (i'm not saying that mastering rolling is hard, just slightly harder than blocking) and acquiring a good stability shield even easier (eagle, especially pre-patch, balder, sliver knight if you have low str, otherwise any greatshield) because the vast majority of attacks by the vast majority of enemies do barely more than a dent on your stamina with 75+ stability (just try going through the game with the Artorias GS and laugh at each and every attack the game throws at you)

so you either don't know the meanings of the words "crutch" and/or "noobs" or are just butthurt about fast/flip rolling for some reason

I wasn't claiming that pressing the L1 trigger to be difficult. I was talking about stamina management.

I'm talking about bosses, not regular enemies. You can fucking block most enemies with a 60ish stability shield and be FULL retarded. There are quite a few bosses where that GSoA is shit. Try just blocking the Firesage demons attacks: you'll die quite quickly because that shield doesn't fully block magic damage. Or S&O electric butt attack. Or Nitos gravesword attacks. Or Seaths cruse breath. Or any number of things where blocking is useless but flip ring is god mode.
 

praetor

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I wasn't claiming that pressing the L1 trigger to be difficult. I was talking about stamina management.

I'm talking about bosses, not regular enemies. You can fucking block most enemies with a 60ish stability shield and be FULL retarded. There are quite a few bosses where that GSoA is shit. Try just blocking the Firesage demons attacks: you'll die quite quickly because that shield doesn't fully block magic damage. Or S&O electric butt attack. Or Nitos gravesword attacks. Or Seaths cruse breath. Or any number of things where blocking is useless but flip ring is god mode.

1. firesage: you mean the "stick to the butt and wail away. walk away 2 paces backwards when he does the AoE" boss? equip the magnificent crest shield or stone, cleansing, havel or hell, even the giant or eagle if you want to go full retard and block the giant AoE :lol:
2. S&O: yeah, rolling twice backwards (midroll is enough, tested last night) is so hard and god mode when you can also just exploit the pathfinding on the pillars and never even trigger the buttslam (edit: btw: eagle shield +10 has something like 75% lightning reduction and ~80 stability at +10 and requires only 16str to wield)
3. Nito: the gravesword attacks from the ground that deal like 30hp and 15 toxic or the actual sword that he swings so high it will never even whiff you if you stay close? (btw GSoA protects 100% from poison, toxic, bleed and curse)
4. Seath: dude, come on. if you're hit by that any time but the first time you see the attack, you're worse even than gouda. just stick to the tentacle and you need neither armour, speed, shield or anything bar your weapon
 

DragoFireheart

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I wasn't claiming that pressing the L1 trigger to be difficult. I was talking about stamina management.

I'm talking about bosses, not regular enemies. You can fucking block most enemies with a 60ish stability shield and be FULL retarded. There are quite a few bosses where that GSoA is shit. Try just blocking the Firesage demons attacks: you'll die quite quickly because that shield doesn't fully block magic damage. Or S&O electric butt attack. Or Nitos gravesword attacks. Or Seaths cruse breath. Or any number of things where blocking is useless but flip ring is god mode.

1. firesage: you mean the "stick to the butt and wail away. walk away 2 paces backwards when he does the AoE" boss? equip the magnificent crest shield or stone, cleansing, havel or hell, even the giant or eagle if you want to go full retard and block the giant AoE :lol:
2. S&O: yeah, rolling twice backwards (midroll is enough, tested last night) is so hard and god mode when you can also just exploit the pathfinding on the pillars and never even trigger the buttslam (edit: btw: eagle shield +10 has something like 75% lightning reduction and ~80 stability at +10 and requires only 16str to wield)
3. Nito: the gravesword attacks from the ground that deal like 30hp and 15 toxic or the actual sword that he swings so high it will never even whiff you if you stay close? (btw GSoA protects 100% from poison, toxic, bleed and curse)
4. Seath: dude, come on. if you're hit by that any time but the first time you see the attack, you're worse even than gouda. just stick to the tentacle and you need neither armour, speed, shield or anything bar your weapon

You only reinforced my point. Mobility and positioning is significantly better than using your shield. The flip ring / fast roll gives you the invincibility frames to maintain your position while remaining unharmed. Poise ensures that if you do get hit it won't matter.

Shields are easy to use but they are not auto-god mode.
 

praetor

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You only reinforced my point. Mobility and positioning is significantly better than using your shield.

except none of the "positioning" you bolded in my post has anything to do with fast/flip roll which for some reason makes you so butthurt

and all of that is besides the point because you're just backpedalling and making excuses for your bullshittery i pointed earlier (fast/flip roll being a crutch for noobs, when in reality it's high-stability shields and iron flesh)
 

DragoFireheart

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except none of the "positioning" you bolded in my post has anything to do with fast/flip roll which for some reason makes you so butthurt

- What makes you think I'm butthurt? And re-read my post: I clearly explained the bold part.

and all of that is besides the point because you're just backpedalling and making excuses for your bullshittery i pointed earlier (fast/flip roll being a crutch for noobs, when in reality it's high-stability shields and iron flesh)

Nice try with the strawman. I like how you are utterly incapable of separating poise from stability. I have yet to do any backpedaling and have made my points quite clear:

- Shields are easy to use, but can quickly become a liability if you rely on just blocking every bosses attack. They can make minor enemies easier but backstabbing is significantly better.
- High poise with fast/flip rolling makes the game too easy. Especially Flip Roll. Dat iFrames!
- Strength weapons are quite difficult to use and are not easy mode. More so if you have low poise.

Also, high stability Tower shields SHOULD be good at blocking considering the stat investment. But they are usually not worth it. A high poise fast/flip roll with Magic and a high damage spear/halberd (halberds are awesome in PvE) is almost always superior and doesn't require significantly more skill.
 

Invictus

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Please someone explain to me how that Gaudost dumbfuck could have been bashing the game 2 months ago about how it was "poorly designed" over beign butthurt for getting his casual gamer candy ass handed to him by the Silver Knights in Anor Londo until we pointed out he could use a bow or some sort of strategic thinking for getting through there if his skillz where not up to it, only to come back with "yeah the game is a cakewalk now" to trying to somehow educate us of which game mechanic is more manly and why DS is not very good as an ARPG?
For fuck sake someone put this retard out of his misery
 
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Not singling you out in particular, brother, I just have to stump hard on some bullshit about vidya gaymes.

I have a feeling that dark souls 2 will require a lot less of the twitchy barrel rolling around with little or no armor like a spastic maniac, to be beaten (something that they pushed even more in the expansion).

Twitchy? Spastic? Neither of these terms well describe a playthrough of Dark Souls with dodging at the core of the player's style. The dodge roll in DS is quite slow compared to most action games and carries with it a stamina cost as well as significant recovery frames; characters in Dark Souls aren't going to be spamming dodges like their name is Gene...or Jeanne.

So grinding will be less necessary, I'm guessing, if you like to play dark souls more like an RPG where you actually make use of your stats and manage your resources, rather than an action game, which was the best and most efficient way of playing dark souls (and the reason for why it was even possible to beat the game at SL1 with pyromancy).

The problem with abandoning the core action gaming mechanics that support a dodge-centric playthrough is that the Souls games don't have much else to offer in terms of interesting gameplay. Most of the game is centered on timing and spacing; two things that dodging interacts with better than any other playstyles.

Both Poise-tanking and hitstun-mongering don't really offer much in the way of meaningful gameworld interaction. Either your numbers are high enough to permit the player to ignore the enemy abilities wholesale, or they aren't. Decidedly uninteresting gameplay.

While parries open up a lot of opportunities in PvP (both partials as well as mindgames centered around true parries), the parry in PvE is merely a reactive strategy, and a rather poor one at that. It doesn't open up additional room for aggression like similar action gaming mechanics (Royal Guard in DMC, Parries in Bayonetta/MGR, perfect blocks in Dragon's Dogma), because the player can't cancel attack/hitstun animations into a parry. That means the player is left "fishing" for a parry, not incorporating it into an overall offensive strategy. Boring...why not just roll through enemy attacks and backstab them (while attacking on wakeup)?

Command of resources isn't a very interesting angle either. Ammunition can be purchased in unlimited quantities, and the pseudo-Vancian casting rewards metagame knowledge more than actual skill application. Do you have enough magical, homing Pew-Pews to kill all the baddies? If yes, then the path to victory is clear and well-worn. Most spells don't have a whole lot of "play"to them.

Basically the further one moves away from action mechanics, the less interesting gameplay becomes in the Souls games. There's likely little chance of DS2 pulling a Dragon's Dogma and providing differentiated mechanical foundations for dissimilar playstyles, but it's something I'd like to see the series, or action-RPGs in general, make standard going forward. "Stats plus simple actions" doesn't make for fulfilling play; sheild/poise tanking didn't elicit much in the way of excitement.
 
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aris

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The problem with abandoning the core action gaming mechanics that support a dodge-centric playthrough is that the Souls games don't have much else to offer in terms of interesting gameplay. Most of the game is centered on timing and spacing; two things that dodging interacts with better than any other playstyles.
Again, there isn't just one way of playing dark souls, which the devs fully intended all the way. They aren't taking the dodge centric playstyle away, they are simply making it less good, and making it have more sense. Like for example, you aren't going to dodge a horizontal swing with a sideway roll anymore, which makes perfect sense.
Both Poise-tanking and hitstun-mongering don't really offer much in the way of meaningful gameworld interaction. Either your numbers are high enough to permit the player to ignore the enemy abilities wholesale, or they aren't. Decidedly uninteresting gameplay.
At its essence, all rpgs are about getting your numbers high enough. I personally have neither done poise tanking nor hitstun mongering though.
Command of resources isn't a very interesting angle either. Ammunition can be purchased in unlimited quantities, and the pseudo-Vancian casting rewards metagame knowledge more than actual skill application. Do you have enough magical, homing Pew-Pews to kill all the baddies? If yes, then the path to victory is clear and well-worn. Most spells don't have a whole lot of "play"to them.
I was more talking about managing consumables, knowing when to use them (after a dodge you can almost always use a consumable right after (at least in dark souls), so that's a no-brainer. For example, when fighting artorias, if you can dodge his attacks, then you pretty much have a window after every attack he makes to either consume a consumable, or attack him, not so if you use a shield (especially not if you don't have a sufficiently high poise), and you have to be a lot more careful with your timings), managing your stamina. I was not talking about stuff you can get unlimited quantities of (although that will cost you unlimited souls).
Basically the further one moves away from action mechanics, the less interesting gameplay becomes in the Souls games. There's likely little chance of DS2 pulling a Dragon's Dogma and providing differentiated mechanical foundations for dissimilar playstyles, but it's something I'd like to see the series, or action-RPGs in general, take to heart going forward. "Stats plus simple actions" doesn't make for fulfilling play; sheild/poise tanking didn't elicit much in the way of excitement.
What I've been saying all the way, is that I want both playstyles to be more viable, and it seems like it's going to be in dark souls 2, so the devs are basically in complete agreement with me here. And the fact that they are nerfing roll, also shows that they agree with me when I say that the roll was too good.

That being said, they have nerfed the shield play as well (though not as hard in my opinion), seeing as there is a delay now before your stamina starts to go up again, which means that you have to me much more careful. Something that I like.
Please someone explain to me how that Gaudost dumbfuck could have been bashing the game 2 months ago about how it was "poorly designed" over beign butthurt for getting his casual gamer candy ass handed to him by the Silver Knights in Anor Londo until we pointed out he could use a bow or some sort of strategic thinking for getting through there if his skillz where not up to it, only to come back with "yeah the game is a cakewalk now" to trying to somehow educate us of which game mechanic is more manly and why DS is not very good as an ARPG?
For fuck sake someone put this retard out of his misery
Rage at the moment, I admit, for no really good reason. Also, I wasn't that knowledgeable about the game, and didn't have any good ranged attacks. Of course, after seeing how overpowered magic is, the game eventually became a cakewalk for the most part, also because I learned the mechanics better. It's not really that complicated, now is it? What on earth does that have to do with the argument at hand? You know that you seem more like a dumbfuck, when the only thing you are capable of is going straight to the lowest denominator?
 
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Invictus

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Why it is simple enough for you to understand; 2 months ago you didn't have a clue (still don't but that is another discussion) and now all of a sudden you want to play the DS savant and when your strawmans get exposed you come back with a "hey I don't care because I am a causal gamer and have a great RL too".
That makes you a dumb fuck
I don't particulary agree with the praetor's or DragonFireheart's arguments (I think any aproach is good, some are best for some situations but you can basicaly play they game according to your playstyle and skills) but at least I can see where they are coming from and can respect their views; your dumbfuck opinions are just a waste of bandwith and closer to "russian brides spaming" than anything else
 

DragoFireheart

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"Stats plus simple actions" doesn't make for fulfilling play; sheild/poise tanking didn't elicit much in the way of excitement.

This I can agree with.

Please someone explain to me how that Gaudost dumbfuck could have been bashing the game 2 months ago about how it was "poorly designed" over beign butthurt for getting his casual gamer candy ass handed to him by the Silver Knights in Anor Londo until we pointed out he could use a bow or some sort of strategic thinking for getting through there if his skillz where not up to it, only to come back with "yeah the game is a cakewalk now" to trying to somehow educate us of which game mechanic is more manly and why DS is not very good as an ARPG?
For fuck sake someone put this retard out of his misery

He learned how to parry the Anor Londo archers.
 

aris

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Who says I'm a DS-savant? I certainly didn't. I'm merely discussing based on the information I have available for me. If there's some peace of information that I'm not aware of, I'll gladly change my stance, which I have done several times (regarding PvP for example, which I'm much more optimistic about now). What I don't care about though, is frothing-at-the-mouth raging replies, containing only inane insults or comments about my skills. I don't care about being "good" in DS, so it isn't cutting very deep, but it is quite annoying to discuss with kids, who are unable to articulate arguments.
 

DragoFireheart

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I'll gladly change my stance, which I have done several times

We're well aware of this. Ironically this is what is making your arguments empty and lackluster because it illustrates your lack of understanding of the Souls games.
 

DragoFireheart

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I'll gladly change my stance, which I have done several times

We're well aware of this. Ironically this is what is making your arguments empty and lackluster because it illustrates your lack of understanding of the Souls games.
I mostly discuss to increase my knowledge, not to show off.

I don't think the bold is going to be an issue for you (unless showing off your ignorance is something you are proud of).


not so if you use a shield (especially not if you don't have a sufficiently high poise), and you have to be a lot more careful with your timings)

Poise != Stability. You can have 0 poise and still effectively block his attacks. I don't know why some people are confusing these two stats.

but it is quite annoying to discuss with kids, who are unable to articulate arguments.

Kill yourself.
 

aris

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I am aware that poise and stability are different things. If a hit burns through your stamina though, and if I'm not wrong, then with a low poise you will stagger, something that doesn't happen if you have high poise. This comes from my own experience, so I haven't verified this.
but it is quite annoying to discuss with kids, who are unable to articulate arguments.

Kill yourself.
That wasn't aimed at you, but in hindsight, it's quite appropriate also for you.
 
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Invictus

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Its like arguing with Sheldon Cooper...yeah whatever you da man gaudaost
I hereby name thee gaudaost Lord of Dumdfuckery
 

DragoFireheart

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I am aware that poise and stability are different things. If a hit burns through your stamina though, and if I'm not wrong, then with a low poise you will stagger, something that doesn't happen if you have high poise. This comes from my own experience, so I haven't verified this.

Nope. A simple google search would have helped you.

EDIT: Anyways, enough about Dark Souls 1. I want to hear more about Dark Souls 2.
 
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praetor

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edited out discussion with Drago (taken to PM to not clog the thread with inanity. lol)

I personally have neither done poise tanking nor hitstun mongering though.

bullshit. you used iron flesh to beat artorias. that's the highest douchbag form of "poise tanking"
 
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DragoFireheart

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I'd respond to your post praetor but I have no more interest in this discussion.

Besides, you fucked up the quotes. Can't be bothered to fix your shit.
 

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