Decline The decline of JRPGS

[SCO]

FF8 is a game where you can disable random encounters, and is full of alternative systems; which i admire. I remember i got Diablo, fought him really early (decent fight btw) and unlocked no-enc. Got cards from the card game, and perfectly survived the scaled boss encounters with steal and another ability to transform cards into items and items into magic.

Granted, it's something to ponder that i had the most fun breaking the combat system over my knee. But FF combat always sucks anyway, having no movement or tactical component to speak off anyway.

 

[Gozma]

Low-res art reduces the alienation of manga/anime derived art design. Hi-res -> worse JRPGs. The first couple of waves of 3D manga/anime designs before they figured out how to do it acceptably (and only at huge expense) were also completely fucking repulsive. Even now they rely on very alienating and unpleasant Japanese fashion design stuff combined with tasteless accessory overload and so on. It has all just looked awful since like the SNES era with only short reprieves. And the whole time it has gotten increasingly expensive so the game production pipeline is more and more stressed to produce these ugly visuals, making every other aspect of the games weaker.

Also, the real core design of "here's some story and cool graphics" in between painless and brainless mash-x-button grinding gameplay got taken over by action story games currently embodied by shit like Uncharted. The hidden sperg mechanics are usually just a developer bonus for fellow nerds that want to completely break the game doing things like level 1 runs, they were never getting the main appeal from that.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

Fuck, I forgot a bit how the magic worked in this shit. Indeed, design of FF8 was so poor there wasn't even MP. Then in general I agree- FF8 indeed had differences between characters.

The problem is somewhere else. Thanks to junction system, abilities (or 'specialization') are separated from characters. It makes the whole thing interchangeable and reduces the role of individual characters. You can make anyone a healer just by assigning this stuff to them. Homo meathead will be less effective than a magickal schoolgirl, but he *can* do this all those tricks. Also, pay attention there's not anymore the additional penalty, the MP cost for spells. If you look at this from that perspective, the only difference between characters are some predispositions and how faggy they look.
IMO predispositions werent so important. You'd be able to beat the game with homo meatheads only in the team without bigger effort.

Why is this different from, say, FF7? You could assign there any materia to everyone. Here's why- negative effetc of materia to certain characters and MP cost. Minigun nigger with a shit-ton of magic materia stuffed into his ass was weaker and had too few MP to cast more than few spells.

Depth of FF8 is like that of a septic tank, you will find shit and corpses no matter how deep will you dive into.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't think you're remembering how the junction system worked. All the slots available to junction were provided by the GFs. Since they were the only real difference in your stats, the GFs provided the only significant differences between characters, and were entirely interchangable. If you had someone decked out as a fighter, you could move the GFs and magic to ANY other character for the exact same result. Same abilities, pretty much the same stats, same magic, same GFs. Limit breaks were the only difference. The stat differences were totally inconsequential unless you're level 100 or something equally retarded. There might be a 10 point stat difference between selfie and zell on various stats, while junctioning adds +150 to a stat and the scaling is linear. Selfie with 160 STR is going to hit harder than Zell with 20.

And minigun nigger with a shitton of magic materia had plenty of MP to cast spells, since magic materia passively increased MP and magic stats. Not that MP ever mattered anyways, in the land of potions and MP absorb and obscenely cheap spells.

Compare this to FF6, where although everyone could learn magic, learning magic was permanent and took a lot of time, and equipment was different, making a character like Relm far shittier at surviving shit than someone like Edgar with a shield and a sword with evasion bonuses. And something like Sabin's blitzes couldn't be arbitrarily replaced by Locke's steal. You're going to notice when you don't have a massive holy elemental magic damage attack at your disposal for fighting undead enemies. Which characters were in your party changed how you fought.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Setzer with Genji Gloves, Offering, and two sets of fixed dice was my favorite combo from any FF.

 

[deuxhero]

If you don't mind cute lesbians as your protagonists and have a PS3, Atelier Totori and Atelier Meruru are great.

You've been pushing them so hard lately I'm starting to feel curious, but for the life of me I can't go up to the store and ask them to hand over that loli game without feeling the need to purge myself through cleansing fire.

Technology is incredible! You can now order games off the internet and have them shipped to your mailbox in packaging that hides their contents! (Plus it's cheaper: Totori is down to about $25 right now. In fact, I can only name... 3 games I've gotten cheaper from a physical store all year, 2 of which were from a literal bargain bin and the last was getting a retailer offering a gift card with purchase to match a discount another store gave, not list price)

I've only pushed them because they really are some of the best jRPGs this gen and there have been a few jRPG/PS3 threads.

 

[felipepepe]

I don't see such a decline on jRPGs, the DS had a nice library of great jRPGs: Etrian Odissey, Infinite Space, Shiren the Wanderer, Radiant Historia, SMT:Strange Journey, SMT:Devil Survivor, Dark Spire, etc...

The real problem here is that we don't get even half of what's being made; I went to some stores in Japan and the PS3 & DS sections had walls of jRPGs that were never translated... there just ins't enough fans in the west anymore, the same reason we only got 2 "conservative" jap Wizardry games, we never got a lot of the wilder titles they release there... it's a genre that moved away from cookie-cutter FF clones into some wild shit, and no one believes they are aver gonna sell well here...

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fuck, I forgot a bit how the magic worked in this shit. Indeed, design of FF8 was so poor there wasn't even MP.

It didn't need to, since it was going for the "You have this many casts of this spell and that's it" system from FF1. The problem is that acquiring those spells was boring (find monster with desirable spell -> use Draw command until you get bored or you get 99 of said spell).

Another problem is that you really only casted a few spells, since most were more useful boosting the character's stats via Junction than being actually used as spells.

 

[eric__s]

Don't feel like writing a dissertation about why incline/decline is a shitty, meaningless dichotomy and why every post in this topic is awful.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Fuck, I forgot a bit how the magic worked in this shit. Indeed, design of FF8 was so poor there wasn't even MP.

It didn't need to, since it was going for the "You have this many casts of this spell and that's it" system from FF1. The problem is that acquiring those spells was boring (find monster with desirable spell -> use Draw command until you get bored or you get 99 of said spell).

Another problem is that you really only casted a few spells, since most were more useful boosting the character's stats via Junction than being actually used as spells.

Yeah, I actually liked FF8 quite a bit when I was younger but I could never bring myself to replay it. It was too long and that draw system was retarded. You'd sit there and draw the spells out of whatever, especially if it was a rare one and then just bind it to an attribute to pump it and that was it. I don't understand how they didn't see that that particular mechanic was boring as hell, especially since it was the bulk of the game system.

 

[tuluse]

Fuck, I forgot a bit how the magic worked in this shit. Indeed, design of FF8 was so poor there wasn't even MP.

It didn't need to, since it was going for the "You have this many casts of this spell and that's it" system from FF1. The problem is that acquiring those spells was boring (find monster with desirable spell -> use Draw command until you get bored or you get 99 of said spell).

Another problem is that you really only casted a few spells, since most were more useful boosting the character's stats via Junction than being actually used as spells.

Yeah, I actually liked FF8 quite a bit when I was younger but I could never bring myself to replay it. It was too long and that draw system was retarded. You'd sit there and draw the spells out of whatever, especially if it was a rare one and then just bind it to an attribute to pump it and that was it. I don't understand how they didn't see that that particular mechanic was boring as hell, especially since it was the bulk of the game system.

Most of FF8 is designed as a boring grindfest, it must have been intentional.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Most of FF8 is designed as a boring grindfest, it must have been intentional.

Although if you didn't keep drawing more powerful spells and just leveled up, you kind of got screwed b/c monster scaling assumed you would have better stat boosts. Which, if it were intentional, would be kind of a way to screw with players who ground on weaker enemies just to mop the floor later.

 

[stabby]

I don't see such a decline on jRPGs, the DS had a nice library of great jRPGs: Etrian Odissey, Infinite Space, Shiren the Wanderer, Radiant Historia, SMT:Strange Journey, SMT:Devil Survivor, Dark Spire, etc...

Though I do agree with your post as a whole, I do have to ask this of the particular bit quoted above: Would they have been the same games had they been produced for home consoles? Is ask this because one of the jRPGs I've enjoyed the most within the last few years is Crimson Gem Saga for the PSP, and though I'm not going to go about saying it's simply an amazing game or anything* I will say that there's no way this game would have been made for the PS3 (2D graphics notwistanding).

I don't want to go into the full 'Technology is Decline, Mmm-kay?' line of argument but higher tech level certainly relates to a higher cost to produce, along with the added minimum of graphical quality expected. I guess it doesn't help that the progression of bad habits developed in the PSX era of games (like Square's 'Must shoe-horn as many cutscenes in first hour as possible') are causing the story & gameplay aspects of these games less and less of the total budget in comparison, which definitely hurts when you want to make a 60 hour game that is demanded to be as pretty as an 8 hour game. Thankfully the handheld games development is spared this for the moment... well, maybe just the NDS & 3DS were/are, as a lot of the PSP's catalog was console-wannabe made crap, and the Vita's not looking much better.


TL;DR - New user, low post count. Move along, nothing to see here.


*(I'm not an advocate of violence, but I will fucking strangle the English Voice Director should we ever meet)

 

[laclongquan]

Yeah, I actually liked FF8 quite a bit when I was younger but I could never bring myself to replay it. It was too long and that draw system was retarded. You'd sit there and draw the spells out of whatever, especially if it was a rare one and then just bind it to an attribute to pump it and that was it. I don't understand how they didn't see that that particular mechanic was boring as hell, especially since it was the bulk of the game system.

You say no to free loot? (It's not a bash per se, just putting things in perspective).

 

[Whisky]

I actually thought junction could have been more interesting, but I'm not exactly sure how I would improve it. The problem with Draw is that if you remove it and replace it with another system for gaining spells, it makes the stat boosts gained from junctions even more easy to get. It didn't help that FF8 was incredibly easy (Though most FF games past FF6 were easy, and even FF6 wasn't very hard.). I actually did like FF8 when I was young too, but I like it less and less the older I get.

If you don't mind cute lesbians as your protagonists and have a PS3, Atelier Totori and Atelier Meruru are great.

You've been pushing them so hard lately I'm starting to feel curious, but for the life of me I can't go up to the store and ask them to hand over that loli game without feeling the need to purge myself through cleansing fire.

Technology is incredible! You can now order games off the internet and have them shipped to your mailbox in packaging that hides their contents! (Plus it's cheaper: Totori is down to about $25 right now. In fact, I can only name... 3 games I've gotten cheaper from a physical store all year, 2 of which were from a literal bargain bin and the last was getting a retailer offering a gift card with purchase to match a discount another store gave, not list price)

I've only pushed them because they really are some of the best jRPGs this gen and there have been a few jRPG/PS3 threads.

Sigh...I've got a copy of Atelier Iris 3 sitting around my house unplayed. I bought it after playing Disgaea for the first time and wanting to grab as much Nippon Ichi as I could. Do you know if that one is good? I don't really want to be spending much money on new games, especially ones that might put me on a sex offender list. At the same time though, I don't want to judge the series based on a potentially shitty game in it.

 

[Tehdagah]

-Agree, the "decline" happened during the PS2 era IMHO. PSX had some very cool and creative games (and a ton of generic but decent titles)- But the Super nintendo was the "peak" of JRPG goodness.

I enjoyed FF7, hated 8 and just recently played X on the PS3 and it was horrible- I mean really bad. Totally linear, 1 dungeon, no shops, really annoying Anime "stereotype" toons... Yeah.

Even Zelda (and other action/platformers) peaked on the SNES/Genesis. I need to get me an emulator.

What?

 

[felipepepe]

Would they have been the same games had they been produced for home consoles?

No doubt, they would've been completly different games. Having glorious hardware to explore is great and everything, but there are games that simply don't work in 3D. Castlevania is a great example, ever since the N64, all attempts at making a console castlevania wielded weird 3D titles that little had in common with the usual castlevania games. Now the 3D & 2D castlevania games live side-by-side, one does not replace the other.

In fact, I would say that handhelds are one of the main reason why jRPGs didn't suffered from a great decline as PC games; when the 3D consoles became "The New Shit™", handhels were still getting classic 2D games; Zelda, the classic FF (incluiding Tactics), Harvest Moon, Fire Emblem, Megamen, Pokemon, Donkey Kong, Tactics Ogre, Mario, Advanced Wars, Breath of Fire... all of them where on the GBA, in full 2D glory, almost as a follow up to the Snes era.

 

[deuxhero]

Sigh...I've got a copy of Atelier Iris 3 sitting around my house unplayed. I bought it after playing Disgaea for the first time and wanting to grab as much Nippon Ichi as I could. Do you know if that one is good? I don't really want to be spending much money on new games, especially ones that might put me on a sex offender list. At the same time though, I don't want to judge the series based on a potentially shitty game in it.

No clue on Iris 3's quality, but alchemy (which differs greatly in the pre-Iris and Arland games) aside, the Iris trilogy is more of a "traditional" jRPG than the rest of the Atelier series (including a male protag and hetrosexual love story and I think linear structure). I know Iris 1 is supposedly pretty bad though.

As you are a Canadian, I can't say your fears are entirely unfounded, it being one of the few "first world" countries that both bans images of fictional characters the government decides are both 1: under 18 2: in pornography AND seriously enforces this ban. That said, Disgaea would be far more likely to get you there (the main character artist is notorious for being an utterly shameless lolicon), and you may be safe if it doesn't go through Customs, but I'm not qualifyed to give you advice.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

-Agree, the "decline" happened during the PS2 era IMHO. PSX had some very cool and creative games (and a ton of generic but decent titles)- But the Super nintendo was the "peak" of JRPG goodness.

I enjoyed FF7, hated 8 and just recently played X on the PS3 and it was horrible- I mean really bad. Totally linear, 1 dungeon, no shops, really annoying Anime "stereotype" toons... Yeah.

Even Zelda (and other action/platformers) peaked on the SNES/Genesis. I need to get me an emulator.

What?

I talked about the wrong FF- It was 13, just didnt realize that when I posted (not sure why I thought 10)

 

[Severian Silk]

Did the emulation scene contribute to the decline? I mean, why buy a new JRPG when you can download a bunch of older ones for free?

I mean, emulation is how I got started in RPGs, and I haven't bought very many new RPGs at full list price since.

 

[laclongquan]

That sounds like the usual talk of game developers: just blame it all on the pirates. Or the secondhand market. Oh noes, it's never their faults/incompetences.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yeah, I actually liked FF8 quite a bit when I was younger but I could never bring myself to replay it. It was too long and that draw system was retarded. You'd sit there and draw the spells out of whatever, especially if it was a rare one and then just bind it to an attribute to pump it and that was it. I don't understand how they didn't see that that particular mechanic was boring as hell, especially since it was the bulk of the game system.

You say no to free loot? (It's not a bash per se, just putting things in perspective).

Is "loot" free when you sit there and hit draw every turn for 30 turns or so? What's more valuable, your time or some virtual spells? I suppose if a person is easily amused by sparklies flying out of the monster they could find that time entertaining but I suspect most people see it more like watching paint dry.

 

[laclongquan]

??? You trying to be funny or something? Even grindaddict wouldnt do shit like that. If they want to grind a Draw point, the logical way is to find something to do to fill the time.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Don't forget that the best draw points were invisible, and that without a guide drawing from bosses (good thing they're completely trivial huh!) was generally your first introduction to a lot of spells, which as far as you knew wouldn't be available any other way for a very long time to come, and may very well be massive upgrades.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I don't see such a decline on jRPGs, the DS had a nice library of great jRPGs: Etrian Odissey, Infinite Space, Shiren the Wanderer, Radiant Historia, SMT:Strange Journey, SMT:Devil Survivor, Dark Spire, etc...

The real problem here is that we don't get even half of what's being made; I went to some stores in Japan and the PS3 & DS sections had walls of jRPGs that were never translated... there just ins't enough fans in the west anymore, the same reason we only got 2 "conservative" jap Wizardry games, we never got a lot of the wilder titles they release there... it's a genre that moved away from cookie-cutter FF clones into some wild shit, and no one believes they are aver gonna sell well here...

Damn straight. Way of the Samurai 4 came out a year later outside of Japan and needed a goddamn customer petition before the publisher decided to let the gaijin bask in Jet Jenkins' coolness.