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Decline The decline of JRPGS

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
23,025
2. Over-reliance on anime artstyle. This one should be self-explanatory.

You mean like this:
http://www.giantbomb.com/lunatic-dawn-odyssey/61-33580/all-images/52-517539/ldoscreen2/51-2255903/
and this:
http://www.giantbomb.com/lunatic-dawn-iii/61-33579/all-images/52-517534/ld3screen2/51-2255913/

You'd need to explain it, because both above games were JRPGs, doesn't matter what that term means.
 

aris

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
11,613
The thing was, some (most tbh, like anything) of that innovation was shit, and it was the shit parts that stuck for some reason. I had a post somewhere else detailing this stuff before, but I'll reiterate some here. Using FF series as an example:

FF7 was the first of the series to cut equipment slots down to 4. (2 if you're not counting accessories.) Materia somewhat made up for this, but materia was interchangeable between any characters and any slots, so it wasn't really the same. FF8 took this even further and nuked equipment entirely, leaving only a weapon slot that did basically nothing. Even the ancient FF1 had 5 slots + vancianish magic. Huge decline in party customization here, where before all sorts of cool shit was possible and the exploration aspect was more exciting because of the prospect of finding unique equipment with some effect that couldn't otherwise be acquired.

FF7 also marked the end of significant differences between characters aside from limit breaks. FF9 and 10 gave them back some stuff, but generally speaking having a party comprised of disctinct characters vanished into a blob of interchangable characters that could each do everything. This was a massive decline compared to the differences between characters in FF6, or the massive set in stone differences one would create in FF5 by building characters along certain paths. You could honestly strip any character in FF7, dump their materia on another character, and it would almost never matter at all.

Spoony touched on this in his FFX review, and though I never thought of it before, FF7 was the point where they stopped giving a fuck about making remotely plausible characters and equipment. Cait Sith's weapons are fucking megaphones. Red XIII wields fucking HAIR CLIPS. Even Setzer at least used darts and implied his dice were some sort of magic attack.

FF7 also began some traditions I'd have happily seen quickly disappear that instead stayed around forever, including chocobo raising minigames and limit breaks shamelessly stolen from Lufia 2. FF6 had a pseudo limit break system, but it was so rare and unreliable it was more like an easter egg. Limit breaks are actually some of the better parts of some later FF games, but it's being used as an obvious crutch and at the cost of other potential ways to differentiate characters.

FF8 actually nuked the idea of equipment stores. They've never really come back properly. Actually, FF8 didn't even have a proper money system, instead having some weird and unexplained 'salary' system, which amounted to a set amount of money over a period of time based on doing quizes and finishing battles without summoning GFs. Not that you needed money for anything ever.

FF7 marked the first use of cinematic time wasting at the beginning and end of each battle. Because moving the camera around is SO COOL and people's time is not valuable, and nothing could be done in a game that would be more interesting than panning the camera over the same terrain every minute. It also marked a sharp increase in animation lengths of various spells and battle effects, particularly summons. God only knows how much more interesting materia they could have added if they didn't have to animate THIS.

FF8 marked the end of secret/optional party members. Everyone in and after FF8 is a mandatory party member.

Haven't played through FF12 or 13, but to my knowledge, FF7 was the last in which a party member ever died. People make fun of the aeris thing, but at least they had the balls to kill people off back then. FF4-7 all killed off party members. Dunno about earlier ones.

There was tons of good stuff back then too, a lot of my favourite jrpgs are on the PSX. It was a time of both incline and decline, but sadly only the decline lingered on.
Well, you have FFIX which has almost none of that shit, except for your paragraph on cinematic time wasting, and which is in my opinion one of the best FFs.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Well, you have FFIX which has almost none of that shit, except for your paragraph on cinematic time wasting, and which is in my opinion one of the best FFs.
Not a fan myself. Copy pasted from what I wrote about the top 10 jrpg list:

Now this one I'm actually kind of pissed made it to the top ten. I can only assume a large number of people (at least 11 apparently) haven't even played console rpgs before the PSX era, or played less than 10 console rpgs ever. The game was clearly an attempt to return to the roots of the series after FF8. However, it bungled things in many respects. First of all, the combat was tedious as hell, since just like FF8, everything was vastly over animated and the intro and outro of every combat had to include a few seconds of panning around the backdrop. Characters didn't even feel that different since, although they had unique skills, almost all of these skills were utterly useless. You were almost always better off using a plain melee attack. They were also cartoony and goofy as hell, which made the atmosphere something akin to a disney themepark- as an employee. Steiner and Quina in particular were huge eyesores. Equipment was brought back, but it's effects were so minor it felt pointless, which in turn made exploration pointless since there was nothing worthwhile to find. And the story was really nonsensical shit that didn't get much explanation and culminated in a boss you've never heard of appearing out of nowhere for no reason. The whole game feels like a tribute to people who liked FF1-6 by people who never played FF1-6.

So yeah, it has equipment/shops and the party members are different (though still all mandatory) but the differences between equipment and party members are often so trivial as to be meaningless. I mean what is the difference between Zidane and Steiner and Freya? The all just bop things for physical damage all day long. It's not like Steiner gets some massive armor bonuses or shield evasion or Zidane is twice as fast or evasive or anything. Garnet and Eiko and Vivi at least had some spells, and Amarant had some random abilities (though he shows up super late and has basically zero character development, on par with Umaro) but by and large none of this really mattered (Also FF9 still had some stupid chocobo minigame iirc, along with a cardgame that was probably better than FF8's but lacked any decent payoff). By comparison, if you have Sabin in your party in FF6, he's going to be spamming blitzes, and you're going to notice when he's gone. Same with most of the other characters in FF6. In FF5 that character builds are wildly different, with Berserkers having totally different equipment options and damage output compared to monks or hunters or thieves or ninjas, let alone mages. And that equipment actually mattered, since back then you got stuff like shields that completely absorbed certain elements, or armor that nulled status effects or weapons that caused them (and caused them frequently, good effects too, not irrelevant crap like poison or silence.) FF4 went even further, with spellcasters being radically different from the others, and even among melee fighters, Cecil was a lot different than Yang (who admittedly sucked) or Kain, who did a lot more damage and could do it from the back row.

I'd love to see another FF game (or jrpg in general) that had as much character differentiation as any of the 16 bit FF games with 8+ characters.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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I doubt we'll see something like that, trend nowadays is more on massive customization, liek the Zodiac Job System in FF XII. Which is cool, but makes that the characters and how they play have no realtion whatsoever... watch 10 minutes of moe girl crying she is hurt and fragile, then spend 1 hour in battles using her as a tank...
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Well, I don't mind customization too much either. It worked well enough in FF5 and Tactics. I never got too far in FFXII, I got bored because all the normal combat was irrelevant auto attacking and all the boss fights were just limit break spam (which often one shot the bosses). But it felt like the characters didn't differentiate much there either, since the differences between wielding a spear or sword or dagger were utterly neglible and there were no significant passive abilities to speak of. I don't really recall how magic worked either, except that it was massively underwhelming.
 

Lightknight

Liturgist
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Nov 26, 2008
Messages
705
FF7 was the last in which a party member ever died.
Alyyyyyys !!!!!
Cant believe anyone gave a shit about Aeris even then.

Etrian Odissey, Infinite Space, Shiren the Wanderer, Radiant Historia, SMT:Strange Journey, SMT:Devil Survivor, Dark Spire, etc...
Radiant Historia is the only JRPG in this list. So...
 

felipepepe

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I think you're being too harsh... there were skills like that lance guy that would jump, Zidane stealing, the ninja guy throwing itens for MASSIVE damage, Quina's stealing monster skills and the two summoners. Even the knight guy would be unique due being able to enchant his sword with offensive magic. Besides, you would learn skills from itens, and characters were limited to what itens they could equip/learn...

It may not be like pre-VII FF's, but is still a great game, IMHO definetly superior to FF VII and VIII.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

Scholar
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Jul 16, 2011
Messages
502
Something like like Live-A-Evil needs to be done again. Each "episode" of the story is only vaguely connected to the others until things are revealed awesomely in the end. There are credits for the designers and mangakas (who directed the sprite team and writing of their own episodes) at the beginning of each episode so it ends up feeling like one of those anime theme compilations like The Animatrix, Batman : Gotham Knight, and Halo Legends (see all of them and play this game /mind-blown). If it can be done in modern times with Dragon Quest 8 style cell- shading to bring each artist's individual style to life then it should be done!
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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Something like like Live-A-Evil needs to be done again. Each "episode" of the story is only vaguely connected to the others until things are revealed awesomely in the end. There are credits for the designers and mangakas (who directed the sprite team and writing of their own episodes) at the beginning of each episode so it ends up feeling like one of those anime theme compilations like The Animatrix, Batman : Gotham Knight, and Halo Legends (see all of them and play this game /mind-blown). If it can be done in modern times with Dragon Quest 8 style cell- shading to bring each artist's individual style to life then it should be done!

I kinda hoped that's what Guild01 for 3DS would be until they announced it would be four separate games simply put in a compilation. And yes, Live-a-Live was amazing. Such a shame it never saw international release and we only got to play it thanks to a fan translation.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

Scholar
Joined
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Messages
502
Live-A-Evil
Live-A-Live, you mean?

Yes, that was a cool game.

livealive.jpg
 

Giauz Ragnacock

Scholar
Joined
Jul 16, 2011
Messages
502
For me it's a toss-up between the fun scenario of Sundown Kid and the funny (later sad) episode of the aging martial artist. Both were really fun for me, but the villain of this game, I think we can all agree, is the real heart and soul of it. When the revelation hit me. I. WAS. FLOORED.
 

Whisky

The Solution
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Live a Live was so cool. When I think about it, all the scenarios were pretty awesome, except for the Wrestler one and perhaps the Caveman one.

Though yes, the medieval one is by far the best.
 

Delterius

Arcane
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Entre a serra e o mar.
2. Over-reliance on anime artstyle. This one should be self-explanatory. It's not that it doesn't have its place, it's just overused far too often. I don't even know if this is entirely last generation's fault, as it was the first generation that could easily translate anime design to character models. If the PS1 had the PS2's power, I think we might have seen this earlier.
I'm just skimming over the thread, but I always found this a weird point to make. Over-reliance on how things are actually drawn in Japan? Better to say that the improved graphics better evidenced the aesthetic that many may just not like.
 

aris

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
11,613
Well, you have FFIX which has almost none of that shit, except for your paragraph on cinematic time wasting, and which is in my opinion one of the best FFs.
Not a fan myself. Copy pasted from what I wrote about the top 10 jrpg list:

Now this one I'm actually kind of pissed made it to the top ten. I can only assume a large number of people (at least 11 apparently) haven't even played console rpgs before the PSX era, or played less than 10 console rpgs ever. The game was clearly an attempt to return to the roots of the series after FF8. However, it bungled things in many respects. First of all, the combat was tedious as hell, since just like FF8, everything was vastly over animated and the intro and outro of every combat had to include a few seconds of panning around the backdrop. Characters didn't even feel that different since, although they had unique skills, almost all of these skills were utterly useless. You were almost always better off using a plain melee attack. They were also cartoony and goofy as hell, which made the atmosphere something akin to a disney themepark- as an employee. Steiner and Quina in particular were huge eyesores. Equipment was brought back, but it's effects were so minor it felt pointless, which in turn made exploration pointless since there was nothing worthwhile to find. And the story was really nonsensical shit that didn't get much explanation and culminated in a boss you've never heard of appearing out of nowhere for no reason. The whole game feels like a tribute to people who liked FF1-6 by people who never played FF1-6.

So yeah, it has equipment/shops and the party members are different (though still all mandatory) but the differences between equipment and party members are often so trivial as to be meaningless. I mean what is the difference between Zidane and Steiner and Freya? The all just bop things for physical damage all day long. It's not like Steiner gets some massive armor bonuses or shield evasion or Zidane is twice as fast or evasive or anything. Garnet and Eiko and Vivi at least had some spells, and Amarant had some random abilities (though he shows up super late and has basically zero character development, on par with Umaro) but by and large none of this really mattered (Also FF9 still had some stupid chocobo minigame iirc, along with a cardgame that was probably better than FF8's but lacked any decent payoff). By comparison, if you have Sabin in your party in FF6, he's going to be spamming blitzes, and you're going to notice when he's gone. Same with most of the other characters in FF6. In FF5 that character builds are wildly different, with Berserkers having totally different equipment options and damage output compared to monks or hunters or thieves or ninjas, let alone mages. And that equipment actually mattered, since back then you got stuff like shields that completely absorbed certain elements, or armor that nulled status effects or weapons that caused them (and caused them frequently, good effects too, not irrelevant crap like poison or silence.) FF4 went even further, with spellcasters being radically different from the others, and even among melee fighters, Cecil was a lot different than Yang (who admittedly sucked) or Kain, who did a lot more damage and could do it from the back row.

I'd love to see another FF game (or jrpg in general) that had as much character differentiation as any of the 16 bit FF games with 8+ characters.
I don't mind party members filling similar roles. All of the characters in FFIX did have a completely different set of abilities though, and if you look at it that way, there's not much of a difference between goku, robo, ayla and frog/glenn in chrono trigger either, and that made up half of the characters in chrono trigger, not just 1/3. As for Steiner, he is silly, but I like him; FFIX is above all else clearly a homage to the time Final Fantasy didn't take itself so seriously clear from characters like zan and zon (if I remember those names correctly) queen brahne and so forth. FF stared to be all gritty with FFVII, culminated in FFVIII and was unfortunately carried on from there (with som exceptions in FFX).

The only part I really agree with you on, is the combat: It's hellishly slow, everything from the fadeout while entering the combat, the several seconds spent watching the same cinematic intro that gets old after the first time and the insane amount of time it takes to fill up barriers, the combat animations and the time it takes from assigning action to execution. On top of this, it has random encounters, which I've come to realise that I really dislike: It's the very antithesis of a guy that likes to explore and check every nook and canny for hidden treasures, like me, it inevitably forces you to grind while you explore. And to top it all of, FFIX is the only game in the entire series, that does not allow you to get items/abilities to avoid/reduce random encounters. There are two JRPGs I've played that I consider to have implemented combat very well; chrono trigger and persona4, chrono trigger for not having random encounter and combat taking place on the same screen, with cinematic, but not overly long combat animations. Persona4 for its amazing fluidity, the fact that it remembers previous commands, and the ability to autofight when you're facing pissweak trash mobs. FFIX is extremely weak in this regard.

As for story, I can't comment, as it has been so long that I can't even remember it. I remember enjoying it though... I'm currently replaying it, so we'll see.

I think FFIX deserves kudos for its OST though, in addition to having many of the most memorable songs in the entire series, I think that its also the one (of the ones I've played) with the most consistently good soundtrack. Also, it has my favorite battle theme of all the FFs, which makes the frequent trash mob battles a little less painful.
 

yes plz

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath
I remember liking FFIX's plot for the most part. It's setting had charm and an actual sense of wonder (I remember my younger self being pretty impressed upon first exploring the Black Mage Village, the Summoner Tribe/Mog place, and a few other places) that really seems to be lacking in pretty much all the titles that came after it, replacing charm and wonder with poor attempts at faux realism and being GRIMDARK. My two major problems with it were characters being or becoming useless in terms of plot (Quinn or whatever its name was is the obvious example, but then there's Fraya who just sorta fades into the background and the dude with the red afro who just sorta... existed; this is pretty much my number one pet peeve when it comes to JRPGs, being a storyfag and all and so many JRPGs do it) and how the vast majority of the game spends its time on knights, mages, kingdoms, monsters, summons, thieves, and the like the last fifth or so of the game suddenly introduces aliens and fucking robots.

Oh, and that last fucking boss battle. The game builds up to a final show down with Kuja but he ends up being only the penultimate boss. The actual final boss is an entity that's introduced literally only minutes before you fight him which is only minutes away from the game ending.
 

nihil

Augur
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Project: Eternity
JRPGs truly have declined. The most recent one I played and liked is probably FFX, which is already a decline from the PSX FFs, in some ways. I'm not counting Japanese dungeon crawlers and strategy RPGs.

Another point that could be added to the list from OP is 5) battle/skill systems that try to hard, or just suck. I can see so many ways to evolve the good ideas from games like Chrono Trigger (no separate battle screen, position matters, combos), FFVII (materia), FFVIII (GFs), etc, to incline command based ATB or TB combat. Instead, everyone is spewing out real time crap where you don't even control all the characters, or just contrived things that feel like underdeveloped gimmicks. GFs get a lot of shit for the bad balance, but at least that system had depth, and tied together all parts of advancement and combat.

I've tried a fair number of PS2 era and later JRPGs, where I just couldn't take it anymore after 5-10 hours because battles simply weren't fun, and it felt like there were no surprises left in the "systems".

Btw, is Lost Odyssey any good? It's one of my last hopes for a good, current gen JRPG.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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JRPGs truly have declined. The most recent one I played and liked is probably FFX, which is already a decline from the PSX FFs, in some ways. I'm not counting Japanese dungeon crawlers and strategy RPGs.

Another point that could be added to the list from OP is 5) battle/skill systems that try to hard, or just suck. I can see so many ways to evolve the good ideas from games like Chrono Trigger (no separate battle screen, position matters, combos), FFVII (materia), FFVIII (GFs), etc, to incline command based ATB or TB combat. Instead, everyone is spewing out real time crap where you don't even control all the characters, or just contrived things that feel like underdeveloped gimmicks. GFs get a lot of shit for the bad balance, but at least that system had depth, and tied together all parts of advancement and combat.

I've tried a fair number of PS2 era and later JRPGs, where I just couldn't take it anymore after 5-10 hours because battles simply weren't fun, and it felt like there were no surprises left in the "systems".

Btw, is Lost Odyssey any good? It's one of my last hopes for a good, current gen JRPG.

Lost Odyssey is kind of weird in that it basically feels like someone updated a 16bit JRPG to current generation, but kept it intact otherwise. This lead to a lot of people saying it's archaic, but I guess that might be a good thing if you're looking for some of that old flavor. Only serious problem I had with the game was that a Thousand Years of Dream parts were infinitely better written and had a greater impact than the main story itself, so much so that I suspect they were written by completely different people.

Speaking of combat systems I kinda wish SE refined the FF12 system instead of lobotomizing it for FF13. I felt it had potential what with Gambits and all, but the game never properly utilized it because you could basically go through the game if you just set someone to cast healing spells when health went <50%. Some Hunts being the exception, of course.

DzbOzLD.jpg
 

nihil

Augur
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Project: Eternity
I'm not really interested in programming my own AI in a JRPG. I'd rather pick specific actions on a moment-to-moment basis. It's still easy for me to see how FFXII is infinitely better than FFXIII, though.

And the crystalis-bullshit or whatever it was called. Sphere Grid, but completely linear, and you run into the cap all the time. Ugh.

I guess I should give Lost Odyssey a shot next time I feel for a JRPG.
 

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