The Errant Signal Thread

[JarlFrank]

100$ isn't much. It's an investment worth doing, and if you've programmed a game and want to sell it, you probably already have invested much larger amounts of money. It's definitely a reasonable price to get your game published on a large and popular sales platform like Steam.

You actually have to pay more if you wish to publish a book on your own or with a book-on-demand publisher, for example.

 

[Infinitron]

According to his Twitter feed, Chris is planning to make a video about the mid-90's Dork Age of FMV games at some point.

 

[Sceptic]

It's definitely a reasonable price to get your game published on a large and popular sales platform like Steam.

It definitely is.

Except it's NOT what those $100 will buy you.

Which everyone seems to be ignoring, even after it's been repeatedly pointed out.

 

[Redlands]

It's definitely a reasonable price to get your game published on a large and popular sales platform like Steam.

It definitely is.

Except it's NOT what those $100 will buy you.

Which everyone seems to be ignoring, even after it's been repeatedly pointed out.

While I definitely do agree with this - it seems like a fairly risky way of potentially just throwing $100 away - I guess you could also make the argument that it gets you at least some attention on Steam so even if it's not hosted you might be able to get Steam users to pick up a copy of your game. That might be worth the $100; but as I said in the other thread the whole thing needs more data to be able to determine whether it's worthwhile or not.

 

[evdk]

Skyway
Sep 9, 2012

Indie games suck it’s nothing new.

Many retards here just support them because in their minds liking indie games means opposing mainstream despite them playing every single AAA game that’s coming out.

But it’s impossible to find as much shit in mainstream as in indie gaming.

In other words – fuck indies, fuck AAAs, support good developers.

Oh yes.

 

[Sceptic]

I guess you could also make the argument that it gets you at least some attention on Steam so even if it's not hosted you might be able to get Steam users to pick up a copy of your game.

True. My problem with the whole thing, from the start, is that Valve just can't seem to actually decide what they want Greenlight to be. That was fine when the service was just there, not so much when it has a price tag attached. And so it basically amounts to "give us $100 while we decide exactly what those $100 will get you; if anything; maybe; don't call us we'll call you." While it may have the benefit of exposing people to your game irrespective of what Valve's criteria and plan for Greenlight actually turn out to be, it still doesn't excuse what, if the company was called anything but "Valve", would be a rather pedestrian fraud.

But since the company is Valve it all turns into "lol if you can't afford $100 then your game sucks." Which may be true, but that's not the point.

 

[Redlands]

But since the company is Valve it all turns into "lol if you can't afford $100 then your game sucks." Which may be true, but that's not the point.

Yeah, I don't get this myself; I mean, I can understand wanting to maybe stump up $100 or possibly even more to ensure it was on a platform, but that's not what it is at the moment and there may be better uses of that money than trying to gamble it on Greenlight.

Honestly, probably one of the biggest problems I have is that it's given to Child's Play. From their official website.

Since 2003, we’ve set up and organized Child’s Play, a game industry charity dedicated to improving the lives of children with toys and games in our network of over 70 hospitals worldwide. Over the years, you as a community have answered the call and come together to raise millions of dollars.
Child’s Play works in two ways. With the help of hospital staff, we set up gift wish lists full of video games, toys, books, and other fun stuff for kids. By clicking on a hospital location on our map, you can view that hospital’s wish list and send a gift.
Child’s Play also receives cash donations throughout the year. With those cash donations, we purchase new consoles, peripherals, games, and more for hospitals and therapy facilities. These donations allow for children to enjoy age-appropriate entertainment, interact with their peers, friends, and family, and can provide vital distraction from an otherwise generally unpleasant experience.

In other words, money from indie developers using Greenlight to get on to Steam will (at least in part) be used to help purchase more consoles and (most likely) AAA titles. In other words, helping to fund the competition.

 

[Infinitron]

Discussion about Errant Signal's video here: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=17196

 

[Infinitron]

New video: http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=392

This'll be the last Errant Signal for a month or so - gotta run off and do all that personal life junk. In the mean time, I leave you with this short video where I philosophize and make up stuff about what it means to win and lose a game.

Dude's getting married!

 

[Infinitron]

He's back!

Errant signal on Photorealism: http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=399

I made a video about photorealism. Really, I’m somewhat surprised how strong the response to this as been – I felt the stance I took in the episode was rather milquetoast/middle of the road, not really outright condemning photorealism nor singing its praises. *shrug*

 

[Lyric Suite]

He's back!

And as wrong as ever.

To wit, this:

Versus any of his weaboo crap he thinks is so "original". Which one would you rather be exited about?

Hipsters, hipsters never change.

 

[Weierstraß]

Did you even watch the video? Wait, do you actually think Eternity is going to be photorealistic?

 

[Machocruz]

That scene isn't exactly Bruegel either. It's pretty drab and generic stock realism that any halfway competent...artist...can do. And I don't see it how contradicts his argument. Would that visual 'style' be appropriate for a light, comedic point and click adventure? Is that all game art can aspire to? And how will the character models look?

And I believe he mentioned Japan or Japanese games only a few times.

 

[Lyric Suite]

That scene isn't exactly Bruegel either. It's pretty drab and generic stock realism that any halfway competent...artist...can do.

Sure, sure. That's why every Codexer and their mothers are fapping to it.

And I don't see it how contradicts his argument.

How many pledges do you think the game would have garnered if the screenshot looked like Torchlight?

Would that visual 'style' be appropriate for a light, comedic point and click adventure?

A genre which was famous because it used to push the boundaries of computer hardware, among other things?

And I believe he mentioned Japan or Japanese games only a few times.

Sure, and every time he did he implied they were superior to western games because of their fanciful art designs.

Fucking hipsters polluting everything with their crappy "artistic" pretensions. Remind me again why the indie scene is mostly shit.

 

[Infinitron]

Lyric Suite
I think Campster's video is really only applicable to immersive 3D photorealism, not photorealism in general.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Then he is building his argument upon a fallacy of his own making.

 

[Infinitron]

He's put it on his blog now. Feel free to comment: http://www.errantsignal.com/blog/?p=399

 

[Machocruz]

Sure, sure. That's why every Codexer and their mothers are fapping to it.

And a good reason I don't use the Codex as a standard for taste in visual art.

How many pledges do you think the game would have garnered if the screenshot looked like Torchlight?

Our options are either utilitarian realism or horrible cartooning? Actually, I would go with the former for this game. But that still doesn't contradict the point that there are other avenues besides photorealism. I mentioned Pietr Bruegel because his style is a manner of realism, with immense detail, but has artistic flourishes/quirks which make his work more interesting than a photo-realist.

A genre which was famous because it used to push the boundaries of computer hardware, among other things?

But not pushing boundaries for the sake of photo-realism. Visual charm was the strength of many classic adventures.

Sure, and every time he did he implied they were superior to western games because of their fanciful art designs.

Seemed like he was holding both eastern and western games with fanciful art styles higher. Maybe not then.

Fucking hipsters polluting everything with their crappy "artistic" pretensions. Remind me again why the indie scene is mostly shit.

I feel ya. "Art style" is the bastion of meager artists. It's a cover up for not having fundamental skills or a developed aesthetic sense. It's the cart before the horse. An artist doesn't have an "art style," they have an interpretation of nature, shaped by their personality, culture, region. Developed through years of work, but not something calculated. Sometimes, like say, a Looney Tunes cartoonist form the golden age, the art style is influenced by function, which is to make a funny drawing. But what is Torchlight saying? It's neither funny nor observant of nature. It's "art style."

 

[Reject_666_6]

LS turning into skyway, it seems. And just when I thought he couldn't get any dumber.

 

[tuluse]

I just found this thread so I'm going to bring up something ancient.

Gordon Freeman is not a Mary Sue. He is a player avatar. He has no personality of his own. His only thoughts and motivations are what the player is thinking at that time. He has no life and his entire backstory is "went to MIT, got job at Black Mesa". He doesn't have any flaws because there is nothing there.

 

[Machocruz]

There is an idea of a Gordon Freeman, some kind of abstraction. But there is no real he -only an entity, something illusory. And though he can hide his cold gaze, and you can shake his hand and feel glove gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense your lifestyles are somewhat comparable....he simply is not there.

 

[DraQ]

Lyric Suite
I think Campster's video is really only applicable to immersive 3D photorealism, not photorealism in general.

This. 2D photorealism is easy.

So, after all, the industry *is* currently crashing against the photorealism barrier.
A bit differently, and earlier than I have envisioned it, but it still does.
Good.

I may finally see some suicidal execs splattered on the pavement.

I just found this thread so I'm going to bring up something ancient.

Gordon Freeman is not a Mary Sue. He is a player avatar. He has no personality of his own. His only thoughts and motivations are what the player is thinking at that time. He has no life and his entire backstory is "went to MIT, got job at Black Mesa". He doesn't have any flaws because there is nothing there.

Well, we do know his Ph.D thesis title as well and can assume hime knowing a lot about quantum physics unlike most of the players.

But other than that it's true - more so, Valve went to great lengths "hollowing out" this character. Not only he doesn't say anything, he is literally voiceless, doesn't even grunt when he gets shot in the ass, dipped in corrosive liquid or fractures a few bones after falling from a building.

It worked pretty well, actually.

I feel ya. "Art style" is the bastion of meager artists. It's a cover up for not having fundamental skills or a developed aesthetic sense. It's the cart before the horse. An artist doesn't have an "art style," they have an interpretation of nature, shaped by their personality, culture, region. Developed through years of work, but not something calculated. Sometimes, like say, a Looney Tunes cartoonist form the golden age, the art style is influenced by function, which is to make a funny drawing. But what is Torchlight saying? It's neither funny nor observant of nature. It's "art style."

'd for this.

Art style for the sake of art style is usually another way to say "trying too hard". Proper art style is a result of a purpose. It might be based on limitation (older games or games not focused that much on graphics), or attempt to focus on something, or the way artist sees the world, or his tools.

It isn't result of 'will make some squigglies to be cool and shit'.

Still, the author of the vid is right about photorealism despite the examples used. Trying to work around limitations may also create an artstyle, and it will still be better than another cowaduty.

Take as much resources as you need to show what you want to show, not more.

 

[Metro]

Not that I disagree but don't think he needed twelve minutes to say gameplay > graphics and that the graphical arms race is what is currently destroying the AAA (and to some extent the indie) gaming markets. Pretty much obvious stuff most people here have known for years.

I feel ya. "Art style" is the bastion of meager artists. It's a cover up for not having fundamental skills or a developed aesthetic sense. It's the cart before the horse. An artist doesn't have an "art style," they have an interpretation of nature, shaped by their personality, culture, region. Developed through years of work, but not something calculated. Sometimes, like say, a Looney Tunes cartoonist form the golden age, the art style is influenced by function, which is to make a funny drawing. But what is Torchlight saying? It's neither funny nor observant of nature. It's "art style."

Since when does an art style choice have to have meaning? Runic is pretty up front with the fact they are a small studio that can't afford more elaborate graphics so they just choose something they could do reasonably well versus trying for something more costly/involved. That aside, trying to explain art is absurd.

 

[tuluse]

Not that I disagree but don't think he needed twelve minutes to say gameplay > graphics and that the graphical arms race is what is currently destroying the AAA (and to some extent the indie) gaming markets. Pretty much obvious stuff most people here have known for years.

There is no more graphical arms race. AAA games are content to make games that look like they were released in 2006. There has literally been < 5 games in the past 5 years that have pushed the graphical envelope. Everything is just UE3 designed for hardware from 2006.

 

[Infinitron]

Not that I disagree but don't think he needed twelve minutes to say gameplay > graphics and that the graphical arms race is what is currently destroying the AAA (and to some extent the indie) gaming markets. Pretty much obvious stuff most people here have known for years.

There is no more graphical arms race. AAA games are content to make games that look like they were released in 2006. There has literally been < 5 games in the past 5 years that have pushed the graphical envelope. Everything is just UE3 designed for hardware from 2006.

True. Campster's video isn't really about graphical quality per se, though. It's about "life-likeness" in general - which includes cinematic animations, etc.