The Mass Effect 3/BioWare Thread

[Sòren]

What was the last time we saw something like Mass Effect, anyway? With the sense of wonder, something new to explore, all kinds of different people and places we had never seen before?

Maybe KotOR, but that was related to Star Wars, so the effect is already diminished.

that's what i Mass Effect expected or hoped to be, but it just lacked the content to evoke fascination. no settlements that illustrated alien culture, no good sidequests, no interesting interaction with the environment except combat.
but in retrospect: the game probably had more soul than anything Bioware produced after it.

 

[DalekFlay]

None of this would be so bad if it had solidly written plot and interesting characters that you cared about to back it up (ME2 did better with this), but it was all set in a big plastic world with plastic characters and a bland plot. I never felt I was exploring a "new" world. I was always just trying to overlook how generic the sci fi was and doing my best to larp [renegade] space marine.

You're not wrong that a lot of it was derivative, but then again sci-fi RPGs are extremely rare. There's nothing else like Mass Effect in the RPG space really.

 

[Infinitron]

None of this would be so bad if it had solidly written plot and interesting characters that you cared about to back it up (ME2 did better with this), but it was all set in a big plastic world with plastic characters and a bland plot. I never felt I was exploring a "new" world. I was always just trying to overlook how generic the sci fi was and doing my best to larp [renegade] space marine.

You're not wrong that a lot of it was derivative, but then again sci-fi RPGs are extremely rare. There's nothing else like Mass Effect in the RPG space really.

The continual failure of the video games industry in general to produce space opera games is rather strange.

I mean, space opera is supposed to be one of THE genres. High fantasy and space opera, those are the two "fanboy" genres. There's certainly plenty of the former, but instead of space opera all we have is lots of near-future "gritty" sci-fi.

It's like an entire generation of writers was traumatized by the decline of the Star Trek TV series and doesn't want to go there.

 

[DalekFlay]

The continual failure of the video games industry in general to produce space opera games is rather strange.

I mean, space opera is supposed to be one of THE genres. High fantasy and space opera, the two fanboy genres. There's certainly plenty of the former, but instead of space opera all we have is lots of near-future "gritty" sci-fi.

It's like an entire generation of writers was traumatized by the decline of the Star Trek TV series and doesn't want to go there.

Yeah, it should be something we're completely sick of seeing because there are so many of them, but in fact there are what... two in the 3D era, Mass Effect and KotOR? It's kind of ridiculous. Maybe they're much harder to make than typical Tolkien wankery.

 

[Cool name]

Fuck yeah! Mass Effect was really unique, and I think that's why I hold it in high regard. Being able to land on desolate planets just felt right; it filled a niche for the dreamers who look up at the stars and wonder. As pure gameplay it did kind of suck, but Mass Effect is the type of game where the atmosphere is so thick and well done that it becomes a PART of the gameplay. The synth soundtrack was a part of that atmosphere, as was the art direction. Mass Effect is greater than the sum of its parts.

I wouldn't dare call such a thingie 'unique.'

Hard Nova, Sentinel Worlds, Protostar, and Alien Legacy all did the same thingie. Starflight and Starflight 2 did too, if memory does not betray me. Sundog, Megatraveler, Megatraveler 2 did so in a more limited way in that you were limited to places of importance and the surrounding areas - Which was the exact same way in which Mass Effect did it.

And that's just from the top of mah fluffy eared head.

I would even call Protostar the proto-Mass Effect: Evil and mysterious aliens are fighting their way to Earth. Hummies can't but delay the inevitable. Enter sexy shadow operative sent to secure an alliance with four very different alien races while scouring uncharted planets for resources to support the war effort and upgrade the little ship that could, and along the way recruiting an assortment of chatty characters into her crew. Then little ship that could goes pewpewpew against evil and mysterious aliens' supership while friendly aliens fight the rest of the fleet.

The one difference is that evil and mysterious aliens' supership goes KABOOM instead of whatever the bleep it was happened at the end of the Mass Effect games, and then you go for spacedrinks at the spacebar with your spacefriends.

The one thingie Mass Effect did bring to the table was making the planets actually pwetty.

And wasn't there a weird russian space game where you shoot things on the surface and then shoot thingies in a starfigther and then explore around on spacejeeps and spacerobots?

 

[chestburster]

The continual failure of the video games industry in general to produce space opera games is rather strange.

I mean, space opera is supposed to be one of THE genres. High fantasy and space opera, the two fanboy genres. There's certainly plenty of the former, but instead of space opera all we have is lots of near-future "gritty" sci-fi.

It's like an entire generation of writers was traumatized by the decline of the Star Trek TV series and doesn't want to go there.

It's probably because space opera requires guns, and guns don't mix well with RPG stat progression system.

Also, a space opera game requires designing various alien races from ground up, and that's hard unlike in "high fantasy" game where any half-brained "designer" can draw some generic half-nude elf chick and call it a day.

Also, high fantasy RPG storylines seem to primarily fit into two stereotypes: (a) gathering your allies and defeating the primary evil; and (b) witnessing the backstabbing politics of several warring kingdoms, --AKA, either ripping off LOTR or Game of Throne. However, for a space opera, what are you going to rip off? A Deepness in the Sky? The Forever War?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Shame they didn't continue to develop the advent rising story, that had some potential as a space opera

 

[chestburster]

Shame they didn't continue to develop the advent rising story, that had some potential as a space opera

Just go play Halo.

 

[DalekFlay]

It's probably because space opera requires guns, and guns don't mix well with RPG stat progression system.

Even with turn-based or RTwP games though, developers tend to shy away from sci-fi. Honestly though it's only been the last 20 years, in the early days there were a bunch of sci-fi RPG games. That makes me believe it's a cost of assets issue, or something of that sort, that makes them go other directions in the planning phase.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

None of this would be so bad if it had solidly written plot and interesting characters that you cared about to back it up (ME2 did better with this), but it was all set in a big plastic world with plastic characters and a bland plot. I never felt I was exploring a "new" world. I was always just trying to overlook how generic the sci fi was and doing my best to larp [renegade] space marine.

You're not wrong that a lot of it was derivative

It wasn't just that it was derivative, it was that the situations, characters and plot were so bland - especially in ME1.

I mean, it had some cool ideas. I liked the Krogan/Salarian backstory (which it didn't really go into until the second game). I liked the idea of the Salarians being short lived and the general effect on their personalities. I liked Tali's race and their backstory (Again, not really delved into until 2). It's about a lack of interesting writing beyond that. Nothing was delved into deep enough or in a way that emotionally engaged (no, seriously) the player. A lot of the concepts were good, but we never really had an opportunity to view things from a more engaging angle than, "Here's the race and their backstory delivered in a few lines of expository monolog, hope that satisfies you, sucker. Now get back to fighting the same 10 enemies over and over in slightly different situations or doing random fetch quests." - mainly talking about ME1 here, but ME2 and 3 were hardly perfect. :/

Mass Effect 2 seemed to right this to a degree at times: Did we learn about the Salarian/Krogan conflict? Yes. But more than that, we talked to Mordin about it and eventually had to help him with the painful discovery that his former student was now doing horrific experiments on them. We got to explore the guilt they both felt over the genophage and had to decide whether or not we thought it was right. That's engaging sci fi quest writing.

Compare that to Wrex in ME1: You talk to him and get some expository dialog on the genophage, sure you can come to a decision on it, but does it matter? Do you really feel anything? You have an argument about the clones. You either convince him to fall in line or kill him. (I had Ash shoot him. Then I reloaded and had her shoot him again. And again. I didn't like Wrex. )

Or what about Liara? "I'm a blue alien elf that you can have sex with. I have mommy issues. Listen to my bland ass expository dialog and then help me kill my mom." Makes me want to vomit.

VS say, Legion in ME2: The geth were boring in ME1, but Legion helps flesh them out. We get to see things from their perspective, learn that there is a war between the reaper worshiping geth and the other geth, learn about the conflict that occurred with tali's race and also make a decision that affects that war. Not my favorite quest in the game, but my point is that it had the elements of discovery, getting the player to feel something about what he's discovering and challenging the player to analyze it and come to a conclusion/decision. That's the entire point of science fiction. ME as a series (and even these decent quests I've mentioned) needed WAY more of this and less of shooting boring enemies in boring land.

The closest thing ME1 had to this was the Rachni choice. That's it and it had a crapton of filler combat to get to it. Every other choice was Renegade vs Paragon banality. "Do you kill the council because you don't like them and want humans to rule or let them live because you are good and stuff? Ash vs Kaidan, which is better and why? Discuss." or almost as bad: space politics, space crime, space racism with zero twist to add some of the elements I underlined (ie, we ran out of ideas, so filler).

, but then again sci-fi RPGs are extremely rare. There's nothing else like Mass Effect in the RPG space really.

Yeah, and that's why I bought it anyway. Sci fi junkie in me couldn't do otherwise. But it'd be nice if they didn't try to ride on that alone. I have a feeling that if there was a bit more competent competition in this genre (and some press with integrity and taste), Mass Effect wouldn't have been rated so highly.

 

[DalekFlay]

It wasn't just that it was derivative, it was that the situations, characters and plot were so bland - especially in ME1.

Eh... I can agree on plot, it's all pretty standard shit done without much spice. Can't agree on characters though, characters are the thing Bioware continue to do rather well as everything else crumbles around them. Garrus, Wrex, Space Racist Chick, etc... they're all pretty well done. Turning Garrus into the Dirty Harry he was meant to be is fun. Also the lore was pretty good, a lot of it you pointed out yourself.

I think they had a good setup, but didn't go anywhere good with it, basically.

 

[Lhynn]

It wasn't just that it was derivative, it was that the situations, characters and plot were so bland - especially in ME1.

I mean, it had some cool ideas. I liked the Krogan/Salarian backstory (which it didn't really go into until the second game). I liked the idea of the Salarians being short lived and the general effect on their personalities. I liked Tali's race and their backstory (Again, not really delved into until 2). It's about a lack of interesting writing beyond that. Nothing was delved into deep enough or in a way that emotionally engaged (no, seriously) the player. A lot of the concepts were good, but we never really had an opportunity to view things from a more engaging angle than, "Here's the race and their backstory delivered in a few lines of expository monolog, hope that satisfies you, sucker. Now get back to fighting the same 10 enemies over and over in slightly different situations or doing random fetch quests." - mainly talking about ME1 here, but ME2 and 3 were hardly perfect. :/

Mass Effect 2 seemed to right this to a degree at times: Did we learn about the Salarian/Krogan conflict? Yes. But more than that, we talked to Mordin about it and eventually had to help him with the painful discovery that his former student was now doing horrific experiments on them. We got to explore the guilt they both felt over the genophage and had to decide whether or not we thought it was right. That's engaging sci fi quest writing.

Compare that to Wrex in ME1: You talk to him and get some expository dialog on the genophage, sure you can come to a decision on it, but does it matter? Do you really feel anything? You have an argument about the clones. You either convince him to fall in line or kill him. (I had Ash shoot him. Then I reloaded and had her shoot him again. And again. I didn't like Wrex. )

im sorry mass effect1 wasnt emotionally engaging enough for you.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

It wasn't just that it was derivative, it was that the situations, characters and plot were so bland - especially in ME1.

Eh... I can agree on plot, it's all pretty standard shit done without much spice. Can't agree on characters though, characters are the thing Bioware continue to do rather well as everything else crumbles around them. Garrus, Wrex, Space Racist Chick, etc... they're all pretty well done. Turning Garrus into the Dirty Harry he was meant to be is fun. Also the lore was pretty good, a lot of it you pointed out yourself.

Guess we just have different tastes. I'd say the characters were tolerable, but a lot of them felt like the same Bioware chracters I've been dealing with for years or else just 2 dimensional. Space racist chick was tolerable. Kaiden was Carth. Wrex was typical fighter/dwarf/klingon with not much else to him. Joker had a decent backstory, but wasn't really utilized well until ME2 (like almost everything else) and the same is true of Tali (though space elf detected). Liara was about as 2 dimensional as you can get. Garrus, while a likeable enough character, was a typical space cop like I was talking about. We didn't learn much about what makes turrians unique or explore their culture beyond some expository dialog, instead it's renegade vs paragon crime and punishment in space hack writing.

I think they had a good setup, but didn't go anywhere good with it, basically.

Bioware®

edit: I mean Wrex, not Grunt. Grunt was awesome.

 

[Xeon]

I didn't like Grunt, he was too homicidal for my taste I think. Wrex I let him live just because I could and I liked him as I went along.

Don't remember the Rachni choice doing anything great.

Spoiler

ME2 you could run into a woman who the Rachni queen run into and thanks you, and in ME3 you could add the Rachni among the forces by doing the quest to kill or spare the Rachni queen or kill the clone, I think that's about it.

 

[Cadmus]

http://forum.bioware.com/topic/399000-the-dai-twitter-thread-oh-hi-character-profiles/page-1409

It seems these sorts of discussions erupt fairly regularly on the Bioware forums, going by the reactions of the forum members.

rofl I found this in the Witcher debate:

Spoiler

I could not bring myself to continue to play the game after Dethmold's death scene. I felt like they spat in my face. I was shaking all over. They may be awesome for other fans, but to me they were downright threatening.

 

[Caim]

http://forum.bioware.com/topic/399000-the-dai-twitter-thread-oh-hi-character-profiles/page-1409

It seems these sorts of discussions erupt fairly regularly on the Bioware forums, going by the reactions of the forum members.

rofl I found this in the Witcher debate:

Spoiler

I could not bring myself to continue to play the game after Dethmold's death scene. I felt like they spat in my face. I was shaking all over. They may be awesome for other fans, but to me they were downright threatening.

I prefer this one:

I agree. I'd love to finish the game but I hated the fan service. Though as I said I've read a quote of the author who commented unflatteringly on dudes who want to see women dress up in bikini armour while such armour would never provide any defense even against weather. How despite such opinion of the author we got what we got is beyond me

Bioware fans complaining about too much fanservice.

 

[Cadmus]

I like how these people stand between the poor gamers and the evil mysoginistic pigs who degrade womans. Our saviours and knechts. Oh lordy lord. What a shitfest. I find that quoting their posts and laughing out loud at them relieves my suffering. How do these people come to be? I don't understand this charade.

 

[Valestein]

It's comical how the SJW Biodrones genuinely believe Bioware is somehow "progressive" about the portrayal of women and other things versus other video games.

BW's not even better than Dead or Alive in that regard.

 

[Delterius]

Those hot women come with 30+ hours of gameplay which consist of talking about their childhood issues. After all, BioWare protagonists are the Therapistborn. Apparently, that makes for character depht.

 

[DalekFlay]

They're pretty much built the Asari into a sex puppet race at this point.

 

[Caim]

It's comical how the SJW Biodrones genuinely believe Bioware is somehow "progressive" about the portrayal of women and other things versus other video games.

BW's not even better than Dead or Alive in that regard.

Honestly, I respect the DOA guys more than I do Bioware when it comes to this: DOA knows fully well why its customers buy their games and makes zero pretenses when it comes to this. And in the meantime, Namco's Project Soul keeps working on their list of fetish characters to keep the Soul Calibur fans satisfied.

 

[tuluse]

Honestly, I respect the DOA guys more than I do Bioware when it comes to this: DOA knows fully well why its customers buy their games and makes zero pretenses when it comes to this. And in the meantime, Namco's Project Soul keeps working on their list of fetish characters to keep the Soul Calibur fans satisfied.

Bioware also knows why their customers buy their games and make zero pretenses when it comes to that.

 

[Valestein]

Honestly, I respect the DOA guys more than I do Bioware when it comes to this: DOA knows fully well why its customers buy their games and makes zero pretenses when it comes to this. And in the meantime, Namco's Project Soul keeps working on their list of fetish characters to keep the Soul Calibur fans satisfied.

Bioware also knows why their customers buy their games and make zero pretenses when it comes to that.

Nah, Bioware is more focused in pretending their d-list writers are writing something akin to a decent film or tv show. There'd be much more "romance" content and even actual DLCs related to it if they were to really embrace it.

 

[Valestein]

It's comical how the SJW Biodrones genuinely believe Bioware is somehow "progressive" about the portrayal of women and other things versus other video games.

BW's not even better than Dead or Alive in that regard.

Honestly, I respect the DOA guys more than I do Bioware when it comes to this: DOA knows fully well why its customers buy their games and makes zero pretenses when it comes to this. And in the meantime, Namco's Project Soul keeps working on their list of fetish characters to keep the Soul Calibur fans satisfied.

I'd argue that the DOA girls are better portrayed than the ME/DA ones. They don't need their daddy/mommy issues or other emotional issues solved by the player self-insert.

 

[Caim]

It's comical how the SJW Biodrones genuinely believe Bioware is somehow "progressive" about the portrayal of women and other things versus other video games.

BW's not even better than Dead or Alive in that regard.

Honestly, I respect the DOA guys more than I do Bioware when it comes to this: DOA knows fully well why its customers buy their games and makes zero pretenses when it comes to this. And in the meantime, Namco's Project Soul keeps working on their list of fetish characters to keep the Soul Calibur fans satisfied.

I'd argue that the DOA girls are better portrayed than the ME/DA ones. They don't need their daddy/mommy issues or other emotional issues solved by the player self-insert.

Yep, they're just having fun playing volleyball and giggling like schoolgirls instead of pursuing the creator/created conflict central to Mass Effect.