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The Master of Magic Thread

MilesBeyond

Cipher
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May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Okay, total n00b moment here, but ever since upgrading to 1.5 I cannot for the life of me beat the game on Hard or higher without resorting to heavy cheese. You just get hammered by mass summons. Chaos wizards are especially bad for this, with massive doomstacks of Hell Hounds pouring over your territory. I recently did 9 Nature books with Conjurer and Nature Mastery and even summoning War Bears every turn (28 mana a pop and 1 upkeep, woot!), Lo Pan's Hell Hounds still outnumbered me. It's at a point where I can't even conceive of something different I could be doing - again, outside of cheesing like 11 booking or Halflings or something.
 

MilesBeyond

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May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Looks like I'm the only one still posting in this thread but I love this game way too much to care.

I'm kind of arriving at the conclusion that Inspirations is the worst spell in the game. At least up there. It seems really, really good but a production bonus that late in the game is totally meh. Earth to Mud has impacted the outcome of a game more than this spell has. Like "Hooray, after you've gotten your entire infrastructure up and produced tons of doomstacks of Paladins, NOW you can get a nice production bonus!" Really?
 

Old One

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...since upgrading to 1.5 I cannot for the life of me beat the game on Hard or higher without resorting to heavy cheese.
Define "heavy cheese."

Not every game will have Lo Pan. You could also fight fire with fire and make an 11 book Chaos summoner. It's one of the most powerful builds because of the hellhound armies.

Have you tried the Artificer/Runemaster combination yet? Those kinds of builds are pretty fun and extremely hard to stop.

Try 11 black books, pick Wraiths as one of your spells, then rush casting it. Wraiths are utterly unstoppable in the early game.

Starting off close to Lo Pan is usually a big PitA though, I'll give you that. Your best hope in that situation is that he goes to war with another neighbor first.
 

Incantatar

Cipher
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
456
Okay, total n00b moment here, but ever since upgrading to 1.5 I cannot for the life of me beat the game on Hard or higher without resorting to heavy cheese. You just get hammered by mass summons. Chaos wizards are especially bad for this, with massive doomstacks of Hell Hounds pouring over your territory. I recently did 9 Nature books with Conjurer and Nature Mastery and even summoning War Bears every turn (28 mana a pop and 1 upkeep, woot!), Lo Pan's Hell Hounds still outnumbered me. It's at a point where I can't even conceive of something different I could be doing - again, outside of cheesing like 11 booking or Halflings or something.
Get gud or play normal. Hard is no big deal most of the time. For every thing there is a counter. You can buff units against HH and obliterate them. Protect against chaos/elemental magic to thwart fire breath and try to not let them attack first. Have a good army mix.

(And install CoM. It's best thing ever happening to MoM. Praise Seravy!)
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
All their games have some countries that are hilariously overpowered, and some that will struggle to even survive. They've never taken the approach of "Well this little OPM in Africa should have as much chance of conquering the world as France because balance."
I think the Paradox reference was supposed to be the Warlock series and not their grand scale strategy game.

(I almost thought they made Fallen Enchantress too but that was Stardock)
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Define "heavy cheese."

Not every game will have Lo Pan. You could also fight fire with fire and make an 11 book Chaos summoner. It's one of the most powerful builds because of the hellhound armies.

Have you tried the Artificer/Runemaster combination yet? Those kinds of builds are pretty fun and extremely hard to stop.

Try 11 black books, pick Wraiths as one of your spells, then rush casting it. Wraiths are utterly unstoppable in the early game.

Starting off close to Lo Pan is usually a big PitA though, I'll give you that. Your best hope in that situation is that he goes to war with another neighbor first.

Personally I define "heavy cheese" as most 11 book strategies, AI exploits, or anything Halfling. Higher difficulties are pretty easy with 11-book Gorgons or Wraiths or Incarnation, or Life Halflings, or whatever. Out of curiosity, what's best for Hell Hound rushes? 11 Chaos, or 10 Chaos and Conjurer/CM?

Get gud or play normal. Hard is no big deal most of the time. For every thing there is a counter. You can buff units against HH and obliterate them. Protect against chaos/elemental magic to thwart fire breath and try to not let them attack first. Have a good army mix.

(And install CoM. It's best thing ever happening to MoM. Praise Seravy!)

Yeah, I think my main problem is a tendency to emphasize peaceful REXing instead of building up my army. I have a bad habit of getting up to like third-tier buildings before getting units. And I know it's wrong, but those bonuses are just so shiny...
 

Incantatar

Cipher
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
456
Yeah, I think my main problem is a tendency to emphasize peaceful REXing instead of building up my army. I have a bad habit of getting up to like third-tier buildings before getting units. And I know it's wrong, but those bonuses are just so shiny...
You can certainly do this if you have peaceful neighbors or are secluded. Aggressive neighbors will attack you as soon as possible. If you really want to play peaceful early and mid game you can try being charismatic and get all colors. Have a diplomatic relationship with everyone and try to get the blue relationship spell.
My advice is to obliterate chaos and aggressive wizards in the vicinity asap. Use Nomads or something with good early and mid game troops if you struggle with this.
I admit I love to turtle with elves and dark elves and being big in blue the ultimate late game color, but this strategy can get very difficult in the beginning. With strong early investment in casting skill this is viable most of the time. Halberdiers, priests, longbowmen and summons are a great mid game mixture if you play the elves.
 

Old One

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what's best for Hell Hound rushes? 11 Chaos, or 10 Chaos and Conjurer/CM?
That's a good question. It's been a long time since I played a build like that, and I don't remember for sure. I doubt you can go wrong either way, especially if you manage to pick up more Chaos books.

What I remember about full Chaos is that it remains fun through the whole game. Later on you get insanely powerful overland spells that wreak havoc on everyone else.

FWIW, my definition of cheese in MoM is a lot narrower that yours. I think most if not all the powerful builds are there on purpose, just like there are really bad builds that are also there by design.
 
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TigerKnee

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Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Later on you get insanely powerful overland spells that wreak havoc on everyone else.
I was under the impression the offensive Chaos ones are kinda worthless because the computer cheats resources anyway
 

Old One

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I was under the impression the offensive Chaos ones are kinda worthless because the computer cheats resources anyway
That's probably true, but there are some that directly destroy buildings in enemy cities. I'd need to refresh my memory before I start getting into late-game Chaos spells too much, but from what I remember they're very fun.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
The reason settings like "Hard" exist are for you to cheese them. Ah, the power of Cheese.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Oddly enough, since the time I posted that question, Hard has gone from being "Ugh this is bullshit why can't I beat this" to being something I can consistently win, even with subpar wizard configs. This change seems to have happened almost entirely because I started playing on larger maps. I used to play almost exclusively on "Small" and "Fair" because I hated the tedium of cleaning up twenty cities per player once you've clearly won, but larger maps seem to make the game easier. I imagine it's because it gives the AI more room to expand before picking on me, and also because it gives me tons of neutral cities to snipe (on Small maps I'd usually find maybe one or two neutrals per continent).
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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Messages
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The Digital Antiquarian has written an article on Master of Magic:

137807-master-of-magic-dos-front-cover-255x300.jpg


DigitalAntiquarian said:
Steve Barcia started thinking about his second grand-strategy game well before he had finished creating his first one. While he was waiting for his latest iteration of Master of Orion to compile each day in the cramped Austin, Texas, offices of his company SimTex, he sketched in the mental details of a follow-up that would take place in a fantasy rather than science-fictional milieu. As soon as the one game was finished, he wrote up a design document for the next one and shared it with the rest of the SimTex staff. Within two weeks, they were charging full-speed ahead on Master of Magic. It would ship under the MicroProse imprint in time for the Christmas of 1994, only a year after its predecessor, despite being one of the most complex strategy games yet made for a computer. If there’s no rest for the wicked, it would seem that Barcia and company had been very bad indeed.

Given the new game’s title and its short development cycle, one might suspect it to be little more than a reskinned Master of Orion. In reality, though, such could hardly be further from the truth. Master of Magic is a wildly different experience from Master of Orion, enough so that one would scarcely guess it to have come from the same designer. Where Master of Orion is polished to perfection, its every element carefully considered and tested, Master of Magic is a far more ramshackle affair, a pile of diverse ideas thrown together — some more fully realized than others, some literally not working at all if we want to get pedantic about it. Nevertheless, it all comes out okay in the end; the game’s variety, generosity, and sheer chutzpah win through. Master of Magic is simply fun — every bit as much fun as Master of Orion. Just don’t try this at home, budding designers.
...
This, then, is one important aspect of Master of Magic. You start with a single village which you must grow and develop. Meanwhile you send out settlers to found other cities, or armies to conquer ones that already exist. You improve your cities by ordering their populations to build structures that increase their production or otherwise cause them to function more efficiently. All of this will be very familiar indeed to any Civilization veteran. That said, the city-building side of Master of Magic is generally simplified in comparison to Civilization. There is, for example, no tech tree to research in order to unlock new types of buildings. Instead buildings themselves unlock other buildings, as shown by a handy chart included in the manual: constructing a builder’s hall unlocks the granary, shrine, library, miner’s guild, and city walls; constructing a granary unlocks the farmer’s market; etc., etc. Steve Barcia, who was eager for understandable reasons to ensure that the similarities to Civilization weren’t overstated, explained the simplifications by noting that the two games had fundamentally different design goals: “Civilization focuses on internal problems. In Master of Magic, it’s the external; it’s conquest.”
...
In the context of its own day, Master of Magic thus joined Julian Gollop’s X-COM, which was released about six months before it, as one of the foremost exemplars of a new trend in strategy games, that of using CRPG elements to forge a more personal, even emotional bond between the player and the figures she commands. It works brilliantly here, just as it does in X-COM. You come to identify deeply with your units and especially your heroes as you nurture their development, and come to mourn the loss of one of them almost like that of a real friend.

The debt which Master of Magic owes to the CRPG genre extends to other areas as well. Its randomly generated maps are seeded not just with neutral and enemy towns but with “fallen temples,” “abandoned keeps,” and “mysterious caves.” You can send your units and heroes to confront what is found within, if you dare; your reward for doing so is booty and the experience they earn, assuming they survive. Just exploring the world, revealing and clearing out more and more of the map, is thoroughly enjoyable even before you meet any of the computer players who are doing the same thing.
...
The thoroughgoing watchword of Master of Magic is variety, applying not only to the list of spells but to every aspect of the game. The sheer amount of stuff here would be impressive in a modern game, and was well-nigh unprecedented at the time of this one’s release. In addition to choosing one of fourteen starting wizards, you choose a starting race for her to command from another fourteen possibilities; each of these races comes with its own unique set of units to be unlocked and raised, as well as a unique mix of buildings that it can erect in its towns. You can choose a world with small, medium, or large land masses, with weak, normal or powerful magic. All these possible starting parameters alone ensure that the game will take a long time indeed to get old. Then, once you actually begin to play, you find an absurdly wide array of monsters to contend with, heroes to recruit, and magical arms and armor to dredge up. And then there are all those spells: spells to buff your units and heroes and to nerf your enemies’, to summon fantastical creatures to join your ranks, to disrupt your foes’ own magic. Eventually your powers become downright Biblical, as you control the winds and blight your enemies’ fields and forests — but be aware that they can potentially do the same things to you. By way of a final touch, you have not one but two complete worlds to explore and conquer; there are two separate dimensions in the game, the relatively mundane Arcanus and the magic-rich realm of Myrror. You can move between them by means of special portals on the landscape which you must discover and secure — or, inevitably, via yet another spell you can research. It will take you a long, long time to see everything that Master of Magic has to offer.
...
Although its overall reception was gravely impacted by its unconscionable state at the time of its release, a small group of players fell in love with the game for its crazy multitudinousness and kept its memory alive for years, then decades. They did so not least because Master of Magic became the opposite of Master of Orion in one final, supremely ironic way: whereas Master of Orion spawned about a thousand 4X rule-the-galaxy copycats of varying degrees of quality, nobody else has ever done a game quite like Master of Magic. The year after it appeared, New World Computing released Heroes of Might and Magic, a superficially similar blending of strategy and CRPG elements, but one that was dramatically different in the details: it was a more tightly focused effort, with pre-crafted maps in place of randomly generated worlds, a modest but carefully tuned suite of spells and creatures in place of a decadent cornucopia of same, and a multi-mission story-oriented campaign in place of a wide-open sandbox to play in. When Heroes of Might and Magic — admittedly, a superb game in its own right — became the hit that Master of Magic had not, it became the model for fantasy strategy games going forward.

So, Master of Magic remains a unique experience to this day. While it’s definitely no paragon of balanced game design, its rambunctious riot of possibility ensures that it stays interesting over the long term; this is one quality that it certainly does share with Master of Orion. In fact, I like to play Master of Magic just like I play that game: I throw the dice to set up the parameters of my world, my wizard, and my minions, and then have at it, assured that, whatever awaits me, it will be completely different from the last time I played. That’s the kind of variety that can keep you playing a game forever.
 

Blake00

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Oct 1, 2020
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Australia
After decades of nothing official it's a good time for Master of Magic fans. Slitherine acquired the MoM license in 2019 and all sorts of stuff has happened since!

A small hint was given that they're working on either a Master of Magic 2 sequel or full remake when they asked Seravy to ask the MoM community whether they'd prefer squares or hexes presumably in a new MoM game. To help I started putting together a giant MoM sequel/remake wishlist on the official Slitherine MoM forum gathering responses from communities all over the net (I missed here cause I suck, so if you want your voice heard hop over there lol!)

They then made a deal with Seravy to sell his Caster of Magic mod as an 'official DLC' for MoM on Steam and GoG. CoM has it's own thread here at RPG Codex where more info can be found.

Then Implode returned from his self imposed exile and started working on his old Master of Magic HD Multiplayer rebuild project again which until recently had got far further than any other fan rebuild! He'd stopped due to hitting walls with creating the AI however he returned reinvigorated and create a functioning AI that is actually quite good now at expanding and trying to kill you. I need to make a new video about the project as my old one was back when Implode was AWOL and there was no global AI (just a combat one) however if you skip to the gameplay stuff you can see how it looks in HD (don't recommend you view on a phone or something else with a tiny screen lol). As well as modern resolutions and multiplayer his engine also supports big 14 Wizard slaughterfest games!





And now Seravy has just released his Caster of Magic 2 project which is a full rebuild of the Master of Magic engine with CoM built in already. Slitherine have renamed it to Caster of Magic for Windows and made it a DLC again for Mo"M just to confuse the s*** out everyone again lol. Free from the shackles of the original MoM engine Seravy has been able to do all sorts of things including adding support for 14 Wizard slaugherfest games like Implodes rebuild does above. I tried to talk Seravy into supporting modern resolutions instead of just stretching 320x200 but failed sadly! His rebuild has allowed for all sorts of other stuff though but I'll go post about it in the Caster of Magic thread as that's probably the better place for it!

I know some people aren't huge fans of CoM's changes but maybe Slitherine will take Seravy's new engine source and do a 'MoM for Windows' one day too. Probably wishful thinking but you never know! If it never happens then hopefully Implode will finish his rebuild in the coming years.

Caster of Magic for Windows
ss_f9549511e095de9fe84f7ecf6482e767554d4900.jpg
 

Blake00

Learned
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Oct 1, 2020
Messages
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Australia
Well I said above it was a good time for Master of Magic fans and that we'd gotten hints of a new MoM game on the way and sure enough the day has come haha! :)

I run the Master of Magic fan Facebook and Discord communities and everyone is already going bananas in them lol! I hope Slitherine shared with MuHa the super MoM sequel/remake wishlist thread I and the communities put together on the Slitherine MoM classic forum. Cause if those guys are doing this without listening to the MoM fans I think we know from history how things will go lol.

People can find the announcement videos (they've remade the old intro!), some nice pictures (of both worlds), and game info on their new steam page.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1623070/Master_of_Magic/

Anyway I see someone has already made a new dedicated Master of Magic Remake thread here at the Codex so I guess we should head over there to join the debate on whether it's looking good or not haha!
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...e-from-thea-developers-and-slitherine.138491/

.
 
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Blake00

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Australia
Anyway I see someone has already made a new dedicated Master of Magic Remake thread here at the Codex so I guess we should head over there to join the debate on whether it's looking good or not haha!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=590&t=94518
.

Facepalm.. posted the wishlist link again instead of the codex thread.. yup.. as Zed says.. go here lol:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...e-from-thea-developers-and-slitherine.138491/

God I wish this place didn't have a Edit time out...

EDIT: Yay I hit the one year mark got an edit button lol. Fixed my post above!

.
 
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Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,757
There are no good MoM-likes. AoW is obviously inspired by MoM in a lot of its mechanics, but it feels like a completely different game.
 

Blake00

Learned
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
292
Location
Australia
What's the best MoM-alike? AoW?

I made a big list of 'similar to MoM' games on my old retro MoM tribute site a while back.. although due to a recent hosting issue (that I haven't got off my lazy ass to fix yet) none of the screenshots will load atm sorry.

https://blakessanctum.x10.mx/Games/MoM/

(Note: site is super retro 90s, you've been warned lol)

.
 
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Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
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May 14, 2020
Messages
2,686
I thought the PSX version was just a simple port, kind of like the Civilization and other various strategy games on the PSX. Strange to think its actually a remake. Does it play any differently?
 

Blake00

Learned
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
292
Location
Australia
Awesome site, man! I think screenshots have loaded with no problems. I can see them, lol. Later, I'm gonna check some of the games from the lists. Thanks!

Thanks! Yeah the thumbnails work fine, I mean if you click on them to see the full screenshot then you'll end up on some stupid photobucket "this guy isn't paying us any money to host his pics" error page haha. I gotta move everything over to imgur but there's like thousands of pics on my site so the motivation isn't huge atm lol.

I thought the PSX version was just a simple port, kind of like the Civilization and other various strategy games on the PSX. Strange to think its actually a remake. Does it play any differently?

Yeah Civizard it's not really a full MoM remake, probably more of a remaster. I just thought it sounded good at the time on my site to get peoples attention since so few know about it, but now that there's an official remake on the way I'll probably need to change that wording to avoid confusion haha. The backend of the game is the same as the PC version however the frontend is completely remade though as they obviously redid the interface for console and the language to Japanese, but interestingly they also made an entire new world rendering engine. So basically the world map seems to be made out of a grid of tile textures being displayed on a giant 3D floor in a kind of 'SNES mode 7' style at a bit of an angle (so not 2D top down but not 2.5D isometric either). All tiles, units, spells, wizards, city buildings etc all appear to be redrawn with more colours and a wee bit more detail despite being at a similar low resolution.

file.php
 

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