Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Jocund]

Day 93 of which year?
I checked my MM2 game, and when I Go To Town with my victorious lvl 64 party it's day 41 of year 906. But there is time travel involved, so it's hard to say how many years were lost due to time travel.
I think CRPG Addict ran away from lots of combats, which will explain his low levels compared to mine. I didn't do any grinding (in fact I teleported over det encounters if I had to return to dungeons), nor did I explore everything.

It sounds to me like you may be a bit too "casual", and not min-max items, spells, fountains and so on.

Oh you're right, he has a video near the end that says year 903.

I think you're right. There are a lot of items I'm not utilizing much. I get maxHP potions, but I don't really know how to make effective use of them. It raises my max HP, but I can't seem to heal without resting, which removes the effects. Can you use temples to heal the new hp? I think I tried that, if I remember right. Skill potions seem like they'd be more useful if my characters could survive (with maxHP potions I'm guessing). Max HP and Skill potions also only last for one fight, right? The spells, I'm not sure what I could be using that I'm not. I use (mostly) lightning bolt, fireball, and fly my sorcerer, and healing and surface with my cleric. The temple buffs seem to be better than the spell buffs.

Once you get gold armor you are set and the jouster does drop it, just checked my old game took me 4 fights, but then I liked the min max and grind aspect, my party 7 archers 1 sorcerer, 255 level, Year 901 Day 23, still hard fights at that level.

Hmm, the best thing he dropped for me so far is an energy blade. I've found the Mist Warrior, and he's a lot easier to kill, for 26k exp rather than 35k, but he seems to drop... bad chests (from the few times I've fought him).

Note that it's not just monster levels that scale with your party's level, but also the quantity. So grinding for XP is rather counter productive. Grinding the Cuisinarts and the Hell Cat for items OTOH, now that is more tempting to me...

I found the Cuisinarts but they killed me pretty quickly. Should I not kill the Mist Warrior then, since it seems like he only gives good exp, not good items?

 

[madrigal]

I found jouster better for items, but the game is probably more fun if you explore on your own, because you can get very powerful very quickly if you know where things are.

 

[octavius]

Hard to say what you should do, as it depends on your playing style and what you think is fun.
Personally I prefer to not grind at all, but take whatever items I get and be satisfied with that, and to develop my characters naturally, while others, like madrigal prefer to grind and max out all those numbers. I also play Iron Man light (only reload on party death).

The max HP potions only give you an extra buffer in combat IIRC. Nice, but not essential. The Hero spell is more effective, as it temporarily raises your characters' levels, which means more APR.

What's the most +es you have found on an item so far? The max in the DOS version is +32 (+64 in Amiga version).
Also, note that items that are +8 (or was it +6?) or better have alignment restrictions, so it can be fun/work to get the best possible configuration for your party when you have dozens of high level items.

 

[Jocund]

I found jouster better for items, but the game is probably more fun if you explore on your own, because you can get very powerful very quickly if you know where things are.

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but he was dropping pretty bad items.

Hard to say what you should do, as it depends on your playing style and what you think is fun.
Personally I prefer to not grind at all, but take whatever items I get and be satisfied with that, and to develop my characters naturally, while others, like madrigal prefer to grind and max out all those numbers. I also play Iron Man light (only reload on party death).

The max HP potions only give you an extra buffer in combat IIRC. Nice, but not essential. The Hero spell is more effective, as it temporarily raises your characters' levels, which means more APR.

What's the most +es you have found on an item so far? The max in the DOS version is +32 (+64 in Amiga version).
Also, note that items that are +8 (or was it +6?) or better have alignment restrictions, so it can be fun/work to get the best possible configuration for your party when you have dozens of high level items.

I got a +8 ancient bow I believe that didn't match the alignment for anyone that could use it. I was trying not to grind, but I was having very little success exploring (I still don't know really what I should be doing, I have a quest to give a lord the four swords of valor I think it is, and I have two of them). Progress is progress, I guess.

 

[madrigal]

I originally played on the amiga and focussed more on exploration and less grinding, but I have played it a lot and wanted to take on the harder fights I didn't do when I was younger, like the mega dragon and devil kings.

 

[Dzupakazul]

SWEET JESUS PEOPLE I PLAYED MM3 THE WHOLE DAY AND NOW IT'S LATE NIGHT AND I JUST SAW THE ERADICATED STATUS FACE FOR THE FIRST TIME

More importantly I couldn't figure out the Cathedral of Carnage puzzle on my own. Note to self: take more and better notes.

(How the hell do I spend 1 million gold?)

EDIT: Seriously though MM3 is really freaking me out ;_;

 

[octavius]

EDIT: Seriously though MM3 is really freaking me out ;_;

MM3 is like a console version of MM2.

 

[Jocund]

I completed a quest, turning in the 3 swords for 100k exp. That's.... 3 quests total I think. Goblet. Save the sons. Swords. And it only took me 165 days.

 

[Humppaleka]

Played some M&M 1 after a long break. As always, mapping out areas is fun and seems like the most natural way of progressing in the game, seeing as it it really doesn't have a neat and tidy structure with it's quests or plot. I'm finding most encounters comfortably easy except a few set ones that I've stumbled upon on my merry travels. The default party is working fine and I'm thinking of exporting it to 2 once I get that far 2015-2099. Will it serve me in 2 also or will I have to switch out classes?

 

[Sceptic]

Took the default party for a spin in a virgin playthrough of M&M3. The soundtrack is good but kinda monotonous (turned it off at this point), the exploration is awesome, and I somehow managed to miss Baywatch and Wildabar and go to Swamp Town as my second town of choice. Bought Gold items there, died a lot, tried to leave the town without the assistance of a portal (and died for that), did a couple arena fights, finally found Baywatch, slapped myself silly for this oversight, dropped a couple of mud huts on my head (greatest TPK ever), keep running to temples to cure that godforsaken Insane status and/or death...

Amazing isn't it, how hard it is to pinpoint exactly why MM3 is so great despite being easy and having so many obvious flaws. There's something to be said when the exploration design is so strong that it trumps any and all elements that could otherwise put you off the game. MM1 and MM3 are the games I generally credit into turning me into a total explorationfag, though the entire series is an explorationfag's heaven really.

Kastore's spells have been kinda underwhelming (even the strongest I can find)

That's because you haven't found Implosion. It's the strongest attack in the game and IIRC some enemies in the pyramid are immune to physical damage (are the Iron Wizards also in this game?) so you'll be using it quite a bit. Otherwise, this bring MM3-5, AAAAing is the way to go in early to midgame.

MM2 is wrecking my face, is this game just inherently designed to drain your hopes and aspirations?

Yes.

MM2 kinda assumes you're importing from MM1 - the early game is otherwise a non-stop grind to at least level 5, because there's absolutely nothing you'll be able to do before that (imported parties start at level 7). There are many reasons I consider this to be one of the weakest MM games (second only to 9), and that initial mountain hump is one of them. You're not doing anything wrong, it's just the way the game is designed. Octavius gave some good advice in his post, but otherwise you'll just have to tough it out. You could always use DOSBox save states - yes it's cheating, but not as onerous as hex editing IMO, and if it'll help you get past the hump faster, and not give up, then go ahead and do it. The game does have some good aspects in its exploration (it IS MM after all) and it's worth at least one playthrough.

I'm currently playing through MM1, I'm a newbie to the series. It's super tough and somewhat unforgiving. But I guess that's just the oldies.

I hope you stick it out, once you get past the slow and grindy early game MM1 is great. The beginner party has on average higher stats than what you can roll, so they're a more-than-good party.

True, you fight a lot of monsters but once you get 255 level you get unlimited hitpoints and if you are going to grind the Cusinarts for items you are going to get a high level naturally and the hardest fights in the game have a fixed amount of monsters so the more levels the better.

None of the fixed fights are hard IMO, and being level 255 means all the fixed-square random encounters become against 255 of this or that, and they're bloody tedious to go through, especially when there are a dozen in a row (*cough* Square Lake Cavern *cough*).

(How the hell do I spend 1 million gold?)

I usually run around with both hireling slots filled, once the hirelings are high level they actually drain quite a lot of gold every day.
And no looking at walkthroughs if you get stuck! Ask here, we'll provide a gentle nudge in the right direction if you missed something. Don't spoil the puzzles, MM3's are among the best in the series.

Played some M&M 1 after a long break. As always, mapping out areas is fun and seems like the most natural way of progressing in the game, seeing as it it really doesn't have a neat and tidy structure with it's quests or plot. I'm finding most encounters comfortably easy except a few set ones that I've stumbled upon on my merry travels. The default party is working fine and I'm thinking of exporting it to 2 once I get that far 2015-2099. Will it serve me in 2 also or will I have to switch out classes?

I usually import the MM1 party into MM2 and pick up a Barbarian and Ninja hirelings to fill up, having one of each class is always fun. Doesn't matter that much though, since you'll be juggling the party composition a lot in MM2 for the + quests. As for the game flow, mapping randomly is one way to do it (it is MM after all) but the Lords' quests are also designed to take you to all the plot-critical areas, so completing these is a good way to see the world.

 

[Jocund]

A few MM2 questions:

1) Is there any way to tell which map section (e.g. A1) I'm on? Bringing up the auto-map gives me coordinates, like (5,3), but doesn't tell me which map section I'm in. I know a few off the top of my head now from using fly, but some times I walk around for a while without looking at the map for a bit, and I bring up the auto-map and have no idea where I've ended up.

2) I've stumbled across a few situations where I've saved people randomly. Afterwards, it says they're available in the inn, but they never are. I'm thinking back to the rescuing the sons quest (still the only two hirelings I have access to) -- do I have to "have" these quests before I can actually complete them, and if I do, will I have to re-do them, or will the game remember that I rescued them already?

3) Speaking of hirelings, are they worth using?

4) I found Corak's soul, so I've been trying to do what the statue in Atlantium said about re-uniting it with his body in the cavern. I figured out I can only bring my Cleric and Robber down, but the fight seems impossible. Magic doesn't work, and every single of the 8 or so enemies using the instant death touch on both of my characters the first round. If I had access to cleric hirelings, would I be able to bring them along for this? (not that I know that I'd be able to survive still, but...)

 

[Dorateen]

Regarding the hirelings, each pair that you find will appear in different Inns across the five towns. One of the things I made sure to do at some point, was to gather them all up when they were available, and bring them to one Inn (Middlegate) and dump them in the roster there, for future access. Yes, you can bring along the hirelings (of the appropriate class) on the class-specific quests. The cleric quest is probably the most involved one, and you might need to come back and try when you are higher level.

Generally, I kept Sir Hyron, but rotated the other spot with different hirelings. Always kept the party size at eight.

 

[octavius]

Isn't there a Locate spell? Or was that only in MM1?

In Corak's Cave, do the enemies act before your own guys?
I don't remember the details of the Cleric quest anymore, but if you had a full roster of Clerics and Robbers that act before the enemies things should be easier.

 

[Jocund]

Regarding the hirelings, each pair that you find will appear in different Inns across the five towns.

I didn't even think of this. You're absolutely right, thank you.

Isn't there a Locate spell? Or was that only in MM1?

There is, but there's no discernible difference between using it and pressing the 'm' key to bring up the auto-map, so far as I can tell.

In Corak's Cave, do the enemies act before your own guys?
I don't remember the details of the Cleric quest anymore, but if you had a full roster of Clerics and Robbers that act before the enemies things should be easier.

I'm almost positive they do. Cleric has 11 speed, Robber 15. Would a full roster of Clerics and Robbers mean rolling some and leveling them up?

 

[Humppaleka]

The Lord's Quests are fine and dandy but when all they say is "Bring me the head of a medusa" or "Go to the Warrior's Stronghold" I find it really hard to know where to even start looking. I find it easier to map stuff out in a broad fashion and check the actual dungeon location (usually just the map sector, after that I check my own maps) from a website. Minor cheating, but being such a "prototype"-feeling game I don't feel bad for it at all.

 

[octavius]

Cleric has 11 speed, Robber 15. Would a full roster of Clerics and Robbers mean rolling some and leveling them up?

No, a full roster means supplementing with hirelings.
When I did the Class Quests I waited until I could send 8 man parties (two of my own + 6 hirelings), so that as many characters as possible got the XP. By that time your stats should be higher as well. Improving the Speed stat is especially important in the beginning.
Have you visited the other towns than Middlegate? There should be trainers in all or most of them, teaching various skills, including one that gives +5 Speed and one that gives +1 to all stats.

BTW, I seem to recall having to compare in-game map with the paper map to find out my current sector.

 

[Humppaleka]

Figuring out from your discussions it seems that M&M 2 is already a very different beast. Looking forward to that.

 

[Jocund]

Have you visited the other towns than Middlegate? There should be trainers in all or most of them, teaching various skills, including one that gives +5 Speed and one that gives +1 to all stats.

Yes, I have a few of them, but I could probably utilize the brain detoxification and optimize them better.

BTW, I seem to recall having to compare in-game map with the paper map to find out my current sector.

I think you're right. I was more wondering for the times I wander a bit, but I guess in those cases I should just fly back to town if I'm feeling too lost. I initially didn't realize how necessary/useful the map was, so I didn't even look at it until madrigal mentioned being able to find the jouster on it. I forget sometimes how useful the manuals/maps were for these old games.

Figuring out from your discussions it seems that M&M 2 is already a very different beast. Looking forward to that.

I definitely had similar difficulties in both games in the beginning, but I feel like it eased up sooner in MM1, and I feel like I figured out much quicker in MM1 the sort of sense of direction/what to do through the quests. I could be remembering it through rose-tinted glasses, though.

 

[Nael]

Amazing isn't it, how hard it is to pinpoint exactly why MM3 is so great despite being easy and having so many obvious flaws.

For me it was the intangible "character" of the game from the artwork to the writing to the unique setting. There are certainly better RPGs from the same era in a technical sense but MM3 literally hit all the right notes and that made it much more memorable than the rest.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Just finished MM1 and am starting on MM2.

 

[Sceptic]

1) Is there any way to tell which map section (e.g. A1) I'm on?

S1.6: Location should do it. I think. Otherwise just use the world map to find features that you see around and look up which area they're in (the world map has A-E and 1-4 at the edges).

2) I've stumbled across a few situations where I've saved people randomly. Afterwards, it says they're available in the inn, but they never are.

As others have pointed out they go to different towns - the same happens in MM3 BTW.

3) Speaking of hirelings, are they worth using?

You probably will have to use some for the + quests (unless you powerlevel, at which point your class and your robber can solo the quest itself). I like using a ninja and a barbarian as permanent fixtures since they're the classes I lack from importing, and on + quests I fill up with as many NPCs as possible, just for the hell of it. Gold is never an issue in this game anyway and the NPCs only take their cut when you rest (not every morning like in MM3).

4) I found Corak's soul, so I've been trying to do what the statue in Atlantium said about re-uniting it with his body in the cavern. I figured out I can only bring my Cleric and Robber down, but the fight seems impossible. Magic doesn't work, and every single of the 8 or so enemies using the instant death touch on both of my characters the first round. If I had access to cleric hirelings, would I be able to bring them along for this?

This is where hirelings are useful, you'd bring all the cleric hirelings, your own cleric and robber, and fill up with the highest level robber hirelings you can find. It's a pretty tough quest, one of the most difficult of the + quests, so I wouldn't attempt it until later in the game. By then your own cleric and robber will be higher level, and you'll have some pretty powerful hirelings you can bring along as well (the higher level hirelings are in tougher areas, as expected).

There is, but there's no discernible difference between using it and pressing the 'm' key to bring up the auto-map, so far as I can tell.

Ah, it seems to work differently from MM1 then. Refer to my advice about area features above. Also, after you've played the game a bit, you'll learn what's where quickly and can recognize areas at a glance. The structure of the world (4 elements at the 4 corners) should also help orient yourself. Keep in mind the world wraps around torus-style.

I'm almost positive they do. Cleric has 11 speed, Robber 15. Would a full roster of Clerics and Robbers mean rolling some and leveling them up?

You don't need to roll any, just keep playing and find the hirelings. I just looked it up, there are 3 cleric and 3 robber hirelings, so you can fill up the party entirely to tackle this once you've found them all. The highest level is 19 and can therefore learn the most powerful spells. Stats are a big thing here - there is one per stat that raises it to around 64, and another spot that swaps stats around, so you can technically get your primary stats extremely high in this game. You don't need to cheese it and get them to 250 (in fact do NOT get them this high, because if an item adds stats and causes them to go over 255, they'll roll back to 1) but getting all your party's stats to 60+ will make the game MUCH easier in parts. Keep exploring - this solves all known problems in MM.

I definitely had similar difficulties in both games in the beginning, but I feel like it eased up sooner in MM1, and I feel like I figured out much quicker in MM1 the sort of sense of direction/what to do through the quests. I could be remembering it through rose-tinted glasses, though.

I don't think so, I do think MM1 is better structured. Most of MM2's main quest has in fact nothing to do with the main quest (you'll see what I mean).

Just finished MM1 and am starting on MM2.

Don't be a miser, share some of your impressions

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Well, my thoughts for MM1:
It was like a roller-coaster. It was really tough and grindy at the beginning especially when doing some of the lord's quests. The gold management was really frustrating too, especially when dealing with poison and eventually dead characters. Sometimes you'd get lucky and get some good treasure, but then only end up running into an encounter that completely fucks you.

Things got better after I learned how to fly to places. I didn't do all of the side-quests, but I did quite a few, I'm sure there's a lot more. I found a neat spot where I could grind of wyverns and got to a point where I felt pretty powerful. I still died in the forest dungeon the first time I went, but I got past that eventually with some matter of luck (and praying to RNGesus). Castle Doom wasn't as bad as getting to castle doom (got decimated by lots of dragons, petrified by lots of gorgons, etc.). Then mapping that one area with the guy's name, it was a pain, but was a cool way to progress the story. Then getting eradicated completely by answering all the wrong questions the first time was fun.

Then... I had to grind... and grind... and grind... to get my sorcerer to the level 7 spells to cast the astral spell. That was super boring as I only got like ~15k exp per wyvern (+hydra lair) run. There might have been a better way to do this, but I was kind of lost.

The end reward was useless tho since you get down-leveled immediately upon importing characters into MM2.

 

[madrigal]

None of the fixed fights are hard IMO, and being level 255 means all the fixed-square random encounters become against 255 of this or that, and they're bloody tedious to go through, especially when there are a dozen in a row (*cough* Square Lake Cavern *cough*).

You don't find fighting 66 Devil Kings hard?

 

[Jocund]

Stats are a big thing here - there is one per stat that raises it to around 64, and another spot that swaps stats around, so you can technically get your primary stats extremely high in this game.

Sorry, what do you mean here? One what per stat?

I don't think so, I do think MM1 is better structured. Most of MM2's main quest has in fact nothing to do with the main quest (you'll see what I mean).

So some things have happened in my game....

Spoiler

I ended up wandering into the Hell Cat spawn, and, surprisingly, I won the fight. I got a good equipment upgrade from this, not to mention the ridiculous amount of experience you get for winning (over 1.5 million??), so I decided to fight him a few more times. Then, I got ballsy and decided to try the Cuisinarts (who I'd already found earlier). To my surprise, again, I won (with a dead character or two). My surviving characters got.... 12 million experience points.

I don't know how I feel about the balance of this game. It was a grueling trudge gaining experience before these two things. Now, it seems trivial. I feel like I've cheated, but I really didn't do anything the game didn't allow me to do.

With that in mind, I don't know what the incentive is to gain experience in any other way. The last quest I turned in (which was the highest grade quest from a castle) gave me 100k exp as a reward.

 

[Sceptic]

Then... I had to grind... and grind... and grind... to get my sorcerer to the level 7 spells to cast the astral spell. That was super boring as I only got like ~15k exp per wyvern (+hydra lair) run. There might have been a better way to do this, but I was kind of lost.

This is what happens to those who rely on other people's maps and don't do their own exploration

E3 (1,4) has the portal to the Astral Plane. Needs the Diamond Key to open. No Sorcerer required.

I hope you enjoyed the game though, and grats on completing it.

You don't find fighting 66 Devil Kings hard?

More tedious than hard, and besides, you don't have to and gain nothing from it.

Sorry, what do you mean here? One what per stat?

One place in the world (usually in a dungeon) where the stat can be increased, IIRC to around 64.

With that in mind, I don't know what the incentive is to gain experience in any other way. The last quest I turned in (which was the highest grade quest from a castle) gave me 100k exp as a reward.

You definitely want to do the highest-tier quests for each lord, including the one from the Queen (Triple Crown in the arenas). The latter is required to beat the game.