Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[octavius]

I'm playing WoX, and I just finished the Clouds part, with only a small incursion to Darkside's Castleview for early XP and training over level 15. It took me a little over two in-game years (~210 days) to defeat Lord Xeen. Now I'm heading to the Darkside. Is the final score based only on time needed to finish the game or is it a more complex formula like in MM7 ?

I think it's based on both game days spent and how much of the game you completed (there are some optional dungeons).

 

[Sceptic]

The manual in the GOG version is ugly. I found the original Apple II manual which looks pretty. Here it is

Oh my GOD I love you SO much. I was convinced this PDF did not exist anywhere on the internet after so many years of searching.

Btw, Anyone knows how to save state in the Dosbox GOG version? I saved in the Inn but I would like to have the option on saving/loading whenever I want.
And btw, I don't understand why since the third game JVC and the designers got rid of much of the tacticals rules/options of the game like the party members positioning, etc...

I don't think the regular DOSBox supports save states, the CVS does though, as well as a host of other improvements and features. http://ykhwong.x-y.net/
Even if you use save states be sure to save at an inn when you can, just in case.

I'm one of these weirdos who like all the various "stages" of Might and Magic, so much as I like the tactical layers in MM1-2 I also like the fast flow in MM3-5. Not sure what made JVC change it though, I guess he wanted to try something faster-flowing considering the enemies were now all visible and "there" instead of triggered by stepping on the square. There's still some kind of formation at least in MM3 - you go from front to back row from left to right, you can notice this when you get flanked or attacked from behind.

Seriously though: The various ways how you'd approach problems in MM3 was pretty cool (and in MM in general I guess). Even if it felt like breaking the game - and perhaps it actually did.
I actually wish more games would give you that kind of freedom, but devs are too scared that their work is perceived as bugged.

"Freedom" is pretty much the defining feature of Might and Magic, whether to go where you want and when you want, or to break things like this. Many consider the games' breaking potential to be a highlight, just ask Darth Roxor.

 

[octavius]

Even if you use save states be sure to save at an inn when you can, just in case.

Definitely.
MM1 is one of two games (the other being Knights of Legend) for which I've used Save States, and the save game got corrupted right before or during the last dungeon.

 

[Average Manatee]

I'm playing WoX, and I just finished the Clouds part, with only a small incursion to Darkside's Castleview for early XP and training over level 15. It took me a little over two in-game years (~210 days) to defeat Lord Xeen. Now I'm heading to the Darkside. Is the final score based only on time needed to finish the game or is it a more complex formula like in MM7 ?

I think it's based on both game days spent and how much of the game you completed (there are some optional dungeons).

Party level (or maybe total experience) should be a big contributing factor as well.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

For those who have played World of Xeen, what's the best order for playing the two games? I feel like if you play one of the games completely through to the end and then go to the next one you'll have a super powerful party and be going through all the beginning and mid-tier dungeons which won't be any fun.

 

[Great Deceiver]

There is no best order, but you can begin exploring Castleview around level 7-8 for a good challenge. I recently played through WoX and I completely finished Clouds before Darkside, and although I felt strong early on in Darkside, difficulty ramps up pretty quickly. Don't worry about it and play it in a natural way - if you feel bored with one side, go to the other.

 

[Average Manatee]

For those who have played World of Xeen, what's the best order for playing the two games? I feel like if you play one of the games completely through to the end and then go to the next one you'll have a super powerful party and be going through all the beginning and mid-tier dungeons which won't be any fun.

No, you're basically supposed to play Clouds then Darkside. It's impossible to stay more than 10 minutes in Darkside without gaining enough XP to trivialize the next 5 hours of Clouds. One of my major complaints about how merging of the two games was handled. Clouds will cap out at about level 20 if you finish everything 100% while Darkside's starter town and immediate surroundings basically cover level 1-15.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

No, you're basically supposed to play Clouds then Darkside. It's impossible to stay more than 10 minutes in Darkside without gaining enough XP to trivialize the next 5 hours of Clouds. One of my major complaints about how merging of the two games was handled. Clouds will cap out at about level 20 if you finish everything 100% while Darkside's starter town and immediate surroundings basically cover level 1-15.

While I agree, look at it this way: What other games merge gameplay together in the same way as WoX does?

...

Exactly. It may not get the balance right, but it deserves mad respect for not only trying, but succeeding as well as it does.

 

[Alex]

It has been a while, but I think you could go way past level 20 in Clouds alone. I used to own Clouds but not Darkside, and while I don't remember at what level I finished the game, I am pretty sure it was past level 50.

 

[Average Manatee]

It has been a while, but I think you could go way past level 20 in Clouds alone. I used to own Clouds but not Darkside, and while I don't remember at what level I finished the game, I am pretty sure it was past level 50.

Don't think you can even find trainers that go that high in Clouds. Gamefaqs backs me up and says trainers cap at 20. There's a few permanent level boosters, if you leveled to 20 then went back you could probably get to level 23 or something, and then stack on up to (I think) +15 temporary levels from fountains to max out at level 38ish.

No, you're basically supposed to play Clouds then Darkside. It's impossible to stay more than 10 minutes in Darkside without gaining enough XP to trivialize the next 5 hours of Clouds. One of my major complaints about how merging of the two games was handled. Clouds will cap out at about level 20 if you finish everything 100% while Darkside's starter town and immediate surroundings basically cover level 1-15.

While I agree, look at it this way: What other games merge gameplay together in the same way as WoX does?

...

Exactly. It may not get the balance right, but it deserves mad respect for not only trying, but succeeding as well as it does.

I dunno, does it really do that much? Both games are still basically independent except you get a few post-game quests with them merged. Would e.g. Morrowind be so much improved if Solstheim had a bunch of random teleporters between it and the mainland? Bearing in mind that they are either suicidal to take (if you were underleveled and going to the harder area) or useless (if you already finished the easy area and have little reason to go back).

I'll give it credit for trying, but I'd say the reason no one else tried is because its not a good idea. M&M games tend to have a fairly steep level curve, and if you throw separate leveling curves from two different games into the same game while still balancing them to be played individually, it's going to mess up. If you want to combine separate games that can be played both individually or in tandem you need to have a system less based around leveling. Guild Wars 1 does this well and stays playable even if you are fast traveling back and forth from one game world to the next at any point because there's a strict level cap in place.

 

[Alex]

Well, I must be remembering it wrong then. Apologies.

 

[kmonster]

If you want the challenge try to do everything you can on the cloud side before entering the dark side.

After you've finished WoX you can get a new challenge by playing a dark side only game.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

I played all the M&M games except 8 and 9. All were good but my personal favorites were 2, 3 and 6. 1 was difficult to play with no automap, sparse graphics, getting lost a lot, kind of boring dungeons. 2 took everything from 1 and made it better. Better graphics, automap, freedom to do whatever you want but the way to progress isn't too vague, lots of jokes and especially interesting dungeons. 3 was a big improvement on 2 with the VGA graphics, soundblaster and mouse support and still the same classic gameplay from the first 2 games. 4 and 5 were good but more of the same. 6 was the next leap forward with 3d graphics, great soundtrack and still same gameplay. 7 was more of 6. 10 was good as well but a bit disappointing that they focused so heavily on combat.

I guess what separates the good ones from the great ones are that the great ones had technical and QoL advancements. But JVC basically stuck with the same formula for the entire run of the series, which was very fun and based on adventure, exploration, and puzzles. Only with 10 did they stray from the formula and make the combat more complex.

 

[pippin]

No automap is not a valid complaint imo. Maps aren't really huge, and the only problem would be teleporters (at least in dungeon crawlers without automap), but still, your mage has a Location spell in 1, and it only uses 1 SP, so it's not a huge risk.

 

[Invictus]

One of the hard truths I've had to come to accept in recent years is that the current youth generation do not engage with blobbers - and needless to say the industry (perhaps in part due to its youth?) does not give a shit about anyone who is over the age of 25.

Well, I'm 26, so maybe I don't EXACTLY qualify as a youth anymore (I even have a whole bunch of gray hairs already ), but I actually finished Isles of Terra a couple of days ago for the very first time! I started playing it a year or two ago, but never finished it, so I gave it another spin when I was home sick a couple of weeks ago, and I basically didn't stop playing.

Not that anyone's interested I suppose, but here are some of the totally random pros and cons that come to my mind right now, without any rose-tinted glasses:

Pros:

• Gameplay: I never thoughts I was going to say this, but I actually really think the somewhat "streamlined" gameplay has helped the game age really well. It's a pretty fast paced game for its time. Combat is fast and snappy, movement and exploration is quick, most dungeons don't take days to get through. It rarely feels tedious.
• No respawns/random encounters: this was such a nice surprise. I usually find that random encounters and/or trash mobs usually make games too tedious to finish them, so I really liked this. When I cleared a map, I could move on to the next. Bam. Done.
• On a similar note, I do like the mechanic of clearing out the monster nests. Nothing shocking, but I liked that whenever I entered a new zone, the first priority was finding the nests, and only then would I begin lawn-mowing the entire area.
• It was pretty impressive to see that the game actually had a quest-log of sorts, that even tracked how many orbs you've given to each of the kings! I definitely wasn't expecting that!
• The graphics may be super cheesy, but I really like them. They're nice, vibrant, colorful, detailed and come packed with some over-the-top animations. The game holds up really, really well. I think it has aged SO much better than, say, MM6. Don't get me wrong, MM6 is 3D blobber heaven, but it looks like fucking shit.
• Roland MT-32 sound support is ace. There are some nice extra sound effects, and I really like the MT-32 versions most of the tracks.
• While a little bit too much like the standard "Collect the Maguffins" plot, I did like the collecting of the orbs, more specifically, I liked that there were 31 in total but you only needed 11 to move to the endgame. I collected them all, obviously, but if you don't want too, more power to you!
• Outdoor environments and overworld: I realize this may sound stupid, but I LOVE blobbers where there's an outdoor environment and non-linear exploration. There's so many of them that don't feature an actual overworld, and I think that's a shame, cause it's one of my favorite aspects of all the MM games.
• The cheesy Science-Fantasy nonsense. It may all be a little silly, but I like this stuff.
• Like all the Might and Magic games, it excels at the feeling of party growth. It's great at making you feel like a terrible neophyte at first, and an absolute bunch of gods by the end. I can't think of another series of games that does this so well.

Cons:

• Music is way too repetitive
  
• Terrible item management: why the hell do I need to go to a store to "identify" an item every time I want to know what it does? Playing without an item list is incredibly tedious.
• Another thing about item management: equipment slots basically take up inventory space, and things become a little cramped at the end. I dumped most of the stuff in the final hours of the game because I couldn't be arsed anymore.
• I liked most of the puzzles/riddles, but a couple of them are retarded, or plain annoying, like in the Arachnoid Cave. I admit, I had to look up a bunch of them.
• As opposed to the Orbs, collecting the Sequencing Cards is not all that fun, because you need to trudge through every square inch to make sure you didn't miss a single one. Also, I only found out in the last hour of game or so what the hell they were even for. You learn about the Orbs at the very start of the game at least.
• Difficulty: It's overall a pretty damn easy game. I found that the latter half of the game can mostly be cleared by spamming attack all the time.
• Lockpicking: You can start without a Ninja/Robber and thus have no lockpicking skill. That's all fine and stuff, but a lockpicking trainer is introduced way too late in the game.
• Lack of feedback is pretty classic for older games. One thing that I find especially baffling is that there never is a way to determine damage output? Your character screens doesn't tell you anything about your equipped weapon, and there's no combat log or info on enemy health, so that sucks too. This leaves some of the underlying mechanics rather vague IMO.
• Choice: Choosing one of the three Kings doesn't matter one bit. Neither could I find any purpose for the the alignment of the party members?
• Shit ending: you get into the final pyramid, delve a little deeper, a message pops-up that basically says "Look over there: Corak is fighting Sheltem!", you enter a tube and BOOM, the game is done. No final boss, no credits, no nothing. Just a 10 second long video of a spaceship flying away.
• Controls: like other games from the era, these seem to have been designed for either keyboard or mouse. Not keyboard AND mouse. I hate that. It does control just fine with just the keyboard though.

Overall, yeah it's pretty ace. It's not a super-deep cRPG experience trying to compete with the likes of Wizardry 6/7, but that's okay, cause that makes it a very solid game for people trying to get into this genre. In short, the perfect way to catch the blobber-fever!

Might and Magic III: Isles Of Terra deserves a solid stamp of approval

Spoiler

Isles of Terra is my favorite M&M game, yeah they polished up most of the issues on the sequels but it felt so fresh and lively and not having an endgame boss and that cliffhanger lead me to actually play the first games to see what was that alk about hehe
A heck of an experience

 

[Eggs is eggs]

Anyone have recommendations for Might and Magic-like games? Basically what IMO separates M&M from most other RPGs (especially the Wizardry-likes) is that they focus more on adventure and exploration and don't have too much grinding, map making, min-maxing for combats, etc. The classic Ultimas I would consider in the same vein as the M&M games (though the worlds in Ultima tended to be realistic, while the M&M worlds tended to be "gamey"), and I would consider Lands of Lore 1 to be another one that excels in these areas. Any other recommendations for games like these?

 

[octavius]

Yendorian Tales, maybe. Three shareware games, out of which two are M&M clones, IIRC.

 

[Dorateen]

Anyone have recommendations for Might and Magic-like games?

Swords & Sorcery: Underworld

 

[Maggot]

You could check out The Quest but it's single character instead of party based.

 

[Invictus]

You could check out The Quest but it's single character instead of party based.

The Quest is damn excellent; a great mix between the early Elder Scrolls like Daggerfall and Might and Magic

 

[Kahr]

MM3 had this nice little feature with Coraks notes describing the area you're in, how it's named and how the dungeons are named and other little tips.
Do 4/5 still have it? I can't find it for the mother of god and there's exactly no cause to remove it from a developer side.
It isn't even that much work.

Edit: This i mean:

 

[ore clover]

MM3 had this nice little feature with Coraks notes describing the area you're in, how it's named and how the dungeons are named and other little tips.
Do 4/5 still have it? I can't find it for the mother of god and there's exactly no cause to remove it from a developer side.
It isn't even that much work.

No, they dropped the feature after Isles of Terra. Which is a shame; I always enjoyed the lore-dump when entering new locations.

The closest substitute in World of Xeen is descriptions from quest givers, but they're not as detailed usually.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Anyone have recommendations for Might and Magic-like games? Basically what IMO separates M&M from most other RPGs (especially the Wizardry-likes) is that they focus more on adventure and exploration and don't have too much grinding, map making, min-maxing for combats, etc. The classic Ultimas I would consider in the same vein as the M&M games (though the worlds in Ultima tended to be realistic, while the M&M worlds tended to be "gamey"), and I would consider Lands of Lore 1 to be another one that excels in these areas. Any other recommendations for games like these?

Star Control II

Edit: I'm serious.

 

[Luzur]

New updates to
MMExtension v2.1 + MMEditor v2.1 Level Editor

https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/10/10423?start=440

too damn much to copy-click in here, like several pages, educate the mind over at their forums.

 

[Wayward Son]

Which is a good starting point?

Best starting point is 1. Hands down.