Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Draxylon]

They still make money off of the GOG Six-Pack and that might reduce what little they make from it. In return, I have one question for you, what do they have to gain from this from a business standpoint?

I don't think they would lose the very minimal sales m&m six pack is giving for such a big company like Ubi. Also, I think IMHO most of the purchases is from people wanting the VI part (or even WoX). I don't think M&M 1 would sell if it would be offered apart as a single game.
Regarding what they have to gain... think about good press, prestige... SMART MARKETING move. That's what companies pursue when open source any of their assets or when release publicly some ancient software (see Microsoft, for example). I think Ubisoft would obtain a good image if GOG includes M&M1 in their catalog of free games every customer has im their game library, jist amomg the Ultima titles or Akalabeth.

About the remakes... think of an engine like Dark Mesiah but maintaning the essence and playability (even turn based) of M&M1... For example, I think ID software made a good job in the recent Doom remake. It's the same fast paced action experience than the original Doom, but with current technology steroids!

But I"m going off focus of my original post... what I would like is to see, appreciate, enjoy and learn reading a piece of historical code (three years/one man!). Not the code from the DOS version but for such an ancient machine as an Apple II... From my point of view, nothing to lose from Ubi/JVC and much to gain in reputation/publicity (think in the game news worldwide publishing the news of the release of the "mythical" original source code of M&M)

 

[Wayward Son]

But if no one really wants the first one, then how much free press would it actually garner?

And if it garners much free press, then people obviously wanted the first one nullifying your original point.

 

[Draxylon]

But if no one really wants the first one, then how much free press would it actually garner?

And if it garners much free press, then people obviously wanted the first one nullifying your original point.

That's one of the benefits of such a news like releasing the source code of the first game. Much people that ignores even the existence of the game would have curiosity to see/play the original game in the DOS port (via GOG, UbiSteam, torrent download...). Having/playing the binary version for DOS of the game does have nothing to do to have the raw original code openen worldwide

 

[Draxylon]

See how Micro$oft made that smart move a few years ago:

http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/microsoft-word-for-windows-1-1a-source-code/

 

[Draxylon]

And that's and interesting list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_video_games_with_available_source_code

Amazed by the Art of fighting case

Wouldn't be nice to see in that lis M&M and Wizardry? Dreaming is free

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

One of the hard truths I've had to come to accept in recent years is that the current youth generation do not engage with blobbers- and needless to say the industry (perhaps in part due to its youth?) does not give a shit about anyone who is over the age of 25 (unless they're fucking PewDiePie). I keep expecting the sub-genre to make a mobile-driven resurgence (honestly, blobbers are the only crpg variant that I can see easily adapting to a touch-screen control scheme), but it's yet to happen so clearly I am just out of touch. I think that the sales in the current market basically cap out at around LoG2 levels. Sure, a shitload of people bought LoG1, but apparently a shitload of people found they also didn't really enjoy the gameplay enough to buy the sequel. That's a very telling metric to me. And with regards to M&M: potentially further reducing sales from LoG numbers by using TB combat (which, while most of us obviously prefer it, does seem to have a detrimental effect on sales)? Doesn't make good business sense.

Eh. I would love to be proven wrong, and the StarCrawlers release has me excited and hopeful about the future of blobbers, but if I'm pragmatic about it, I have to say that I suspect they are going to be relegated to serving a verrrrrry niche demographic. The upshot of that is that only people who are genuinely passionate about the sub-genre will be willing to sacrifice their blood, sweat, and tears on it.


All that said: BLOBBERZ4LYFE!!!11!

 

[TheGameSquid]

One of the hard truths I've had to come to accept in recent years is that the current youth generation do not engage with blobbers - and needless to say the industry (perhaps in part due to its youth?) does not give a shit about anyone who is over the age of 25.

Well, I'm 26, so maybe I don't EXACTLY qualify as a youth anymore (I even have a whole bunch of gray hairs already ), but I actually finished Isles of Terra a couple of days ago for the very first time! I started playing it a year or two ago, but never finished it, so I gave it another spin when I was home sick a couple of weeks ago, and I basically didn't stop playing.

Not that anyone's interested I suppose, but here are some of the totally random pros and cons that come to my mind right now, without any rose-tinted glasses:

Pros:

• Gameplay: I never thoughts I was going to say this, but I actually really think the somewhat "streamlined" gameplay has helped the game age really well. It's a pretty fast paced game for its time. Combat is fast and snappy, movement and exploration is quick, most dungeons don't take days to get through. It rarely feels tedious.
• No respawns/random encounters: this was such a nice surprise. I usually find that random encounters and/or trash mobs usually make games too tedious to finish them, so I really liked this. When I cleared a map, I could move on to the next. Bam. Done.
• On a similar note, I do like the mechanic of clearing out the monster nests. Nothing shocking, but I liked that whenever I entered a new zone, the first priority was finding the nests, and only then would I begin lawn-mowing the entire area.
• It was pretty impressive to see that the game actually had a quest-log of sorts, that even tracked how many orbs you've given to each of the kings! I definitely wasn't expecting that!
• The graphics may be super cheesy, but I really like them. They're nice, vibrant, colorful, detailed and come packed with some over-the-top animations. The game holds up really, really well. I think it has aged SO much better than, say, MM6. Don't get me wrong, MM6 is 3D blobber heaven, but it looks like fucking shit.
• Roland MT-32 sound support is ace. There are some nice extra sound effects, and I really like the MT-32 versions most of the tracks.
• While a little bit too much like the standard "Collect the Maguffins" plot, I did like the collecting of the orbs, more specifically, I liked that there were 31 in total but you only needed 11 to move to the endgame. I collected them all, obviously, but if you don't want too, more power to you!
• Outdoor environments and overworld: I realize this may sound stupid, but I LOVE blobbers where there's an outdoor environment and non-linear exploration. There's so many of them that don't feature an actual overworld, and I think that's a shame, cause it's one of my favorite aspects of all the MM games.
• The cheesy Science-Fantasy nonsense. It may all be a little silly, but I like this stuff.
• Like all the Might and Magic games, it excels at the feeling of party growth. It's great at making you feel like a terrible neophyte at first, and an absolute bunch of gods by the end. I can't think of another series of games that does this so well.

Cons:

• Music is way too repetitive
  
• Terrible item management: why the hell do I need to go to a store to "identify" an item every time I want to know what it does? Playing without an item list is incredibly tedious.
• Another thing about item management: equipment slots basically take up inventory space, and things become a little cramped at the end. I dumped most of the stuff in the final hours of the game because I couldn't be arsed anymore.
• I liked most of the puzzles/riddles, but a couple of them are retarded, or plain annoying, like in the Arachnoid Cave. I admit, I had to look up a bunch of them.
• As opposed to the Orbs, collecting the Sequencing Cards is not all that fun, because you need to trudge through every square inch to make sure you didn't miss a single one. Also, I only found out in the last hour of game or so what the hell they were even for. You learn about the Orbs at the very start of the game at least.
• Difficulty: It's overall a pretty damn easy game. I found that the latter half of the game can mostly be cleared by spamming attack all the time.
• Lockpicking: You can start without a Ninja/Robber and thus have no lockpicking skill. That's all fine and stuff, but a lockpicking trainer is introduced way too late in the game.
• Lack of feedback is pretty classic for older games. One thing that I find especially baffling is that there never is a way to determine damage output? Your character screens doesn't tell you anything about your equipped weapon, and there's no combat log or info on enemy health, so that sucks too. This leaves some of the underlying mechanics rather vague IMO.
• Choice: Choosing one of the three Kings doesn't matter one bit. Neither could I find any purpose for the the alignment of the party members?
• Shit ending: you get into the final pyramid, delve a little deeper, a message pops-up that basically says "Look over there: Corak is fighting Sheltem!", you enter a tube and BOOM, the game is done. No final boss, no credits, no nothing. Just a 10 second long video of a spaceship flying away.
• Controls: like other games from the era, these seem to have been designed for either keyboard or mouse. Not keyboard AND mouse. I hate that. It does control just fine with just the keyboard though.

Overall, yeah it's pretty ace. It's not a super-deep cRPG experience trying to compete with the likes of Wizardry 6/7, but that's okay, cause that makes it a very solid game for people trying to get into this genre. In short, the perfect way to catch the blobber-fever!

Might and Magic III: Isles Of Terra deserves a solid stamp of approval

Spoiler

 

[Wayward Son]

I engage with blobbers. I'm 16. Thesis disproven.
TheGameSquid I already have a few grey hairs myself.

 

[Sizzle]

I'm 16.

For legal and moral reasons, I hope you never browse GD :D

 

[Wayward Son]

I'm 16.

For legal and moral reasons, I hope you never browse GD :D

Too late. Far too late

 

[Dorateen]

• Choice: Choosing one of the three Kings doesn't matter one bit.

It matters to the two kings who's castles get vanquished!

But seriously, excellent write-up and summary. I agree, the overworld exploration is where Might & Magic truly shines. I actually enjoyed creating a separate reference list of identified items. And regarding difficulty, Moose Rats can ruin a beginning party's day. It is easier to go out of Fountainhead first, and then take on the rats.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

why the hell do I need to go to a store to "identify" an item every time I want to know what it does?

And lose a whole fucking day by just entering the store on top of it !

Damn, that was annoying.

 

[Average Manatee]

And regarding difficulty, Moose Rats can ruin a beginning party's day. It is easier to go out of Fountainhead first, and then take on the rats.

One of the most enjoyable parts of M&M3 is figuring out that all you need to do is get the temple blessing and then go around back of the city to the AC shrine to get early game god mode.

 

[pippin]

why the hell do I need to go to a store to "identify" an item every time I want to know what it does?

And lose a whole fucking day by just entering the store on top of it !

Damn, that was annoying.

I keep expecting the sub-genre to make a mobile-driven resurgence (honestly, blobbers are the only crpg variant that I can see easily adapting to a touch-screen control scheme), but it's yet to happen so clearly I am just out of touch.

Explore the japanese games then. Yeah, they do have anime art style, but if you can tolerate that, you'll find that more often than not they do respect the original idea of blobbers. I've been told The Dark Spire, in the Nintendo 3ds, is a quite good example of a japanese blobber. And you have Elminage games, which were made by devs of the japanese Wizardry games. I'd say if you haven't tried at least some of those jap games you're actually missing out on quality stuff.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Explore the japanese games then. Yeah, they do have anime art style, but if you can tolerate that, you'll find that more often than not they do respect the original idea of blobbers. I've been told The Dark Spire, in the Nintendo 3ds, is a quite good example of a japanese blobber. And you have Elminage games, which were made by devs of the japanese Wizardry games. I'd say if you haven't tried at least some of those jap games you're actually missing out on quality stuff.

Yeah I've heard good things about Dark Spire, and have wanted to check it out for a long time, but my 3ds has a dead pixel (stupidly took it out bouldering in my pocket) and I just can't fucking stand to play the thing. I should see about it getting it repaired. I did play Etrian Odyssey 1 before my 3ds' accident, and really enjoyed that, despite it's weeaboo graphics. I also picked up Elminage: Gothic for PC, but my backlog is looooooooooong, and I've actually been replaying MM3 over the past two months so it's been ticking my blobber itch. I also might have to D1P Starcrawlers next month because a sci-fi blobber is something I feel compelled to vote with my wallet for.

But to your original statement, you make a valid point; there are plenty of blobbers coming out of Japan.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

I played Dark Spire a bit and felt like it was an uninspired Proving Grounds clone. The most fun Proving Grounds clone I've ever played was Etrian Odyssey 4. With that one they added an overworld, lots of mini dungeons, interesting quests and other things that keep it from being a repetitive "go to dungeon, go to town, rinse, repeat" affair.

 

[Finn Willoughby]

I will go with MM3. I loved that game, it was so drastically different in art style, sound and interface from the first 2 games. I fell in love with it and played it to death.

 

[Mightmagic]

• Lack of feedback is pretty classic for older games. One thing that I find especially baffling is that there never is a way to determine damage output? Your character screens doesn't tell you anything about your equipped weapon, and there's no combat log or info on enemy health, so that sucks too. This leaves some of the underlying mechanics rather vague IMO.

You have a spell that indicates the health point. You can determine the damage with this spell. I don't know the english name of this spell.

I love M&M 3 even if I love also world of xeen and I like M&MX. It's my favorite might&magic and my favorite rpg.

In the order
"love" : M&M III > World of xeen (M&M V > M&M IV) > M&M X >> M&M VII > M&M 6 >>> M&M IX and M&M VIII :"don't love"
I have never played M&M I and II

 

[Valky]

One of the hard truths I've had to come to accept in recent years is that the current youth generation do not engage with blobbers- and needless to say the industry (perhaps in part due to its youth?) does not give a shit about anyone who is over the age of 25 (unless they're fucking PewDiePie). I keep expecting the sub-genre to make a mobile-driven resurgence (honestly, blobbers are the only crpg variant that I can see easily adapting to a touch-screen control scheme), but it's yet to happen so clearly I am just out of touch. I think that the sales in the current market basically cap out at around LoG2 levels. Sure, a shitload of people bought LoG1, but apparently a shitload of people found they also didn't really enjoy the gameplay enough to buy the sequel. That's a very telling metric to me. And with regards to M&M: potentially further reducing sales from LoG numbers by using TB combat (which, while most of us obviously prefer it, does seem to have a detrimental effect on sales)? Doesn't make good business sense.

Eh. I would love to be proven wrong, and the StarCrawlers release has me excited and hopeful about the future of blobbers, but if I'm pragmatic about it, I have to say that I suspect they are going to be relegated to serving a verrrrrry niche demographic. The upshot of that is that only people who are genuinely passionate about the sub-genre will be willing to sacrifice their blood, sweat, and tears on it.


All that said: BLOBBERZ4LYFE!!!11!

The sad truth to this is that people like you and I, people who actually like video games, who play them for the reward of being able to play them, who started playing games before the 2000's, our video games were stolen from us by mass market appeal normalizing it to be another time sink for normalfags. Those fuckers came in and trampled all over our things and got away with it.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

Can't tell if the post above me is being ironic or not.

 

[Valky]

Can't tell if the post above me is being ironic or not.

Entirely serious. Casuals ruined video games.

 

[Sceptic]

In the order
"love" : M&M III > World of xeen (M&M V > M&M IV) > M&M X >> M&M VII > M&M 6 >>> M&M IX and M&M VIII :"don't love"
I have never played M&M I and II

I completely disagree with your order (and I like MM8 even if it's nowhere near my favourite) but you really should play MM1-2, especially MM1. It's not only the one that started it all, it started it all really well. It's still one of my favourites in terms of exploration and how the world is laid out, probably MM1 and MM6 are the best at having the world not feel like a theme park with conveniently-spaced and well-defined attractions at each corner. Not saying I don't love MM3's elemental-themed corners of course.

 

[Draxylon]

I gave a new try with m&m 1, predefined party, no mapping... wandered a while and survived the first two random encounters without problem! Enjoyed the experience a lot and finally I went into the game.

The manual in the GOG version is ugly. I found the original Apple II manual which looks pretty. Here it is

Btw, Anyone knows how to save state in the Dosbox GOG version? I saved in the Inn but I would like to have the option on saving/loading whenever I want.
And btw, I don't understand why since the third game JVC and the designers got rid of much of the tacticals rules/options of the game like the party members positioning, etc...

 

[RatTower]

I like MM3 the best.
It feels like a retro skyrim!

Spoiler

Seriously though: The various ways how you'd approach problems in MM3 was pretty cool (and in MM in general I guess). Even if it felt like breaking the game - and perhaps it actually did.
I remember finding one of those pyramids on the first island, but I couldn't get it open. So I cast some spells and quickly got a strength buff from a nearby shrine and just smashed in the door like some madman with roid rage.

Gotta say I was pretty surprised by what I found in there.
Not to mention that I got my ass handed to me on a silver plate.

That was pretty fun.
It felt a lot like going to some forbidden place.
I actually wish more games would give you that kind of freedom, but devs are too scared that their work is perceived as bugged. Which is understandable I guess.

 

[gunman]

I'm playing WoX, and I just finished the Clouds part, with only a small incursion to Darkside's Castleview for early XP and training over level 15. It took me a little over two in-game years (~210 days) to defeat Lord Xeen. Now I'm heading to the Darkside. Is the final score based only on time needed to finish the game or is it a more complex formula like in MM7 ?

Anyway, if anyone is interested, I configured the GoG version of WoX to sound much better by the using BASSMIDI driver. The steps are detailed below:

Spoiler

- Click on "Settings (Full Speech)" shortcut in start menu, and choose for sound effect Sound Blaster 16, and for music Roland Canvas. Use default settings.
- Download and install BASSMIDI, then download the following sound fonts: Weeds General MIDI and Fluid R3 GS+SFX (the later is for sound effects)
- In BASSMIDI Driver Configuration, on port A, add both of the sound fonts, and then in Advanced select port A as default MIDI Synth
- Open in Notepad++ dosboxMM4-5.conf and change the entries under [midi] section to look like:
mpu401=intelligent
mididevice=default
midiconfig=0