Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Wayward Son]

BTW, anyone that wants it, MM (1-9) games are now 67% off on GOG!!

 

[Artyoan]

I finished MM7. Went with a Knight, Thief, Cleric, Sorc. Also went Light side. Might as well do my pros and cons.
Pros:
-Alchemy stayed useful the entire game and was kind of interesting figuring out what makes what.
-Dungeons were definitely shorter than MM6 but felt like a better length overall
-Harden Item potions. Repairing was already done better with having way less stuff break. Now I had an option of hardening the items that consistently broke. Great change.
-I liked the water run to the Lincoln even though the wetsuit unequip ordeal seemed unnecessary.
-More distinct classes is great.
-The story does finally catch on and was decent. I liked seeing Archi return as well as my bro Roland. I'd assumed he was dead.
-I definitely like the MM7 style portraits better. I make no apologies.
-More spells seemed to actually function when I tried them. A lot did nothing in MM6.

Cons:
-Traveling was more annoying than MM6. Even before having the traveling utility spells it just seemed far harder to get around and more necessary to be moving around from zone to zone.
-Some fairly annoying repeated dialogue. "It's just a cut... but I need it fixed!"
-There isn't much of a difference between Master and GM with some of the skills
-Lloyd's Beacon. Could have used a more gimp version for at least some of the game rather than waiting all the way til the end before I could even learn it.
-Dungeon length was better but quality took a hit. Dungeons seemed to lack detail and too many were just plain caves and tunnels.
-The showdown with Xenofex was anticlimactic. It was one of those 'oh, i just killed him...' moments. Considering he was directing so much across MM6 this was a letdown.
-Why is the GM Armsmaster trainer put that far into the near endgame?
-The areas just weren't as memorable. I'm finding it hard to discern primarily why exactly but MM6's areas just felt way more... loved? well-crafted? I don't know.
-No Golden Touch spell. I liked being able to directly turn items into gold when there were too many big ass armors taking way too much space in the inventory.
-Bows are still godlike at the beginning and crap from middle to end.
-The cult of the Baa returns (which I liked) and only resides in one of the shortest and worst dungeons in the game. I would have rather they re-used the MM6 baa sprites here as well.
-I had a 70 day Lloyds Beacon set that I lost after ten seconds of training because it took that long in game time. Training time being a week was odd in MM6 but at least it seemed to be done concurrently. This game rapes the clock with training.

Other Notes:
-I never got the music to loop. This peppered the entire game with awkward feelings as the music would eventually stop and it was uncomfortably silent. I would sometimes save and reload just to restart the music.
-Having my own castle ended up having no real effect. It just didn't matter in the end.
-Money was still a non-issue. I finished with 600k gold and again from the mid-game til the end I was just racking up gold.
-Regeneration's healing per mana spent was pretty insane by the end of the game.
-Melee was way more powerful than the direct damage Magic spells. Buffs made my party into a buzzsaw.
-Seemed odd to me that I was unable to return to the tutorial island. Would have had some good 'revenge' potential on the dragon. I ran from it though I know its possible to kill.
-There aren't really any castle darkmoors in this game. That is to say, there aren't any dungeons filled with super annoying bullshit that makes it both painful and memorable. Closest might be the nighon/thunderfist tunnel stuff I guess.
-There was quite a bit of dungeon content that went unused. As a law abiding citzen and child of the light, I didn't want to mess with the guards at most locations when they told me to bugger off. That left a lot of stuff unexplored.
-How many people figured out where the altar piece was in the Temple of the Dark? I had to look this up. Did anyone legit find that button on their own?
-Dragons weirdly seemed to do no damage. I was standing in the middle of about fifteen of them and nothing was happening to me that Regeneration couldn't handle. Starkly opposed to the nearby Titans.
-Choosing Light or Dark was kind of nice in that it could have some effects on the game but I don't think it added all that much. I suppose it would be nice to choose the other side on a replay but you still explore both areas anyway.
-I ended MM7 in the level 60s while I ended MM6 in the level 90s.

I might skip MM8 and head onto MM9. I know that game seems universally trashed but I want to at least give it a try. If it sucks too hard I'll drop it early.

 

[octavius]

-Seemed odd to me that I was unable to return to the tutorial island. Would have had some good 'revenge' potential on the dragon. I ran from it though I know its possible to kill.

I really disliked that tutorial island, and that dragon is one of the reasons. "Realistically" lvl 1 adventurers should not be able to defeat it, but it turns out it's not so difficult.

 

[Artyoan]

MM6 dropped you right into New Sorpigal that not only let you learn by exploring but also by running into the dangers out in the open. It also held immersion by actually being like a town within a world instead of an obvious training wheels course.

I also thought the same thing that a low level party shouldn't be able to realistically kill this thing yet. It seemed like a good delayed opportunity to let the player come back at a more appropriate level and handle it with some good feelings about making returns to the beginning of the game. But they didn't do it.

Might have been better to just start the player right in Harmondale but even then that town still feels lacking compared to New Sorpigal in much the same way the entire game felt like a step behind MM6. It's just oddly plain.

 

[Storyfag]

I might skip MM8 and head onto MM9.

Don't. MM8 is charming.

 

[Snorkack]

I might skip MM9 and head onto MMX

Trust me, that's what you really wanna do.

 

[octavius]

There is a HoMM 2 map called Starfire made by Timothy Duncan, who also made Nosferatu and THUNK. It takes place on CRON 300 years after the events in MM2.
The map is absolutely brutal. On first try I was harassed by a Knight hero with 13 in Defense, but managed to repulse him. When he returned I had the Paralyze spell and a bigger army. He had one big stack and two small ones, but he also he had the anti-Paralyze artifact.
So I tried to run past him to his home castle instead, but ran afoul of a Warlock with 15 Spell Power and Chain Lightning...which is pretty much the worst thing a fresh Knight army can face.

On second try I tried a different position (there are four Knight positions, corresponding to the castles in MM2) and lowered difficulty to Expert, but surrounded by Swamp, and with no ore and no mines, and nearest town defended by Dragons, it soon became an uphill struggle.

Anyone played this map?

 

[logrus]

I started M&M6 after World of Xeen and was very impressed by the battle against the skeletons at the temple of Baa. Very, very impressed, it was a jaw-dropping moment and I certainly thought they had gone out of their minds. Destroying them was a matter of shooting arrows until breaking my finger, but still is a really memorable fights if only for the preposterous number of enemies.

Seriously? I considered that fight totally lame, one of the most stupid fights I have ever encountred in any cRPG. It was pathetic, just go up and shoot everything from above. 100-200 skeletons? It was not a challenge at all, just dumb clicking same button thousand times for 20 minutes.
I think some people are really blinded by nostalgia factor. Maybe you played it as a kid and have fond memories about it, but that's definition of shitty encounter in my book.

To be honest, M&M VI is totally overrated, battling hundreds of identical monsters over and over was so boooooring after a couple of levels when your party become capable of nuking armies. A lot of codexers shit on "modern games with too much filler combat", and I guess none of them (except MMORPGs) can match number of thrash monster in VI-VII M&M's.

 

[Baron Dupek]

I might skip MM8 and head onto MM9.

MM8=swimming in money, no difficulty after few hours
MM9=buttfuck ugly, BUT if finally have some decent dungeons. But even with fan made patched it can be random with bugs. At least it nice to play M&M like FPS with crosshair in the middle and mouse camera control...

 

[Artyoan]

After starting MM9 it would take roughly twenty seconds to load the inventory screen or the menu. Found a patch for that.

After patching that, it would then hang onto loading screens to where I could hear myself able to move and attack but all I could see is a loading screen. Found a patch for that.

It was also stuck in a borked windowed mode. Found a patch for that too.

I think I'm ready to move on from the first room now.

 

[Baron Dupek]

You played with 1.3 patch?
edit: weird, all patches have less than megabyte? No wonder game is still bugged.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

Why are all the Japanese Wizardry clones using engines that are less good than MM3, from way back in 1991? I mean in every Wizardry clone I've ever played, any kind of encounters, people, objects, etc. are completely invisible until you step on that space. Or the Elminage games show a silhouette of a person to mean that there is a person on that space. The world of MM3 was populated with people, events, towns, day/night patterns and tons of things that make the world feel alive. And the Japanese Wizardry clones that are even made TODAY are nothing but empty dungeons with invisible encounters and tons of grinding. I have no idea why they keep making them.

Is there really that much of a hardcore following that wants to repeatedly play games that are virtually indistinguishable from the very first Wizardry from 1981??? If you're going to copy a game, copy MM3 or MM6 or at least add something of your own. I mean most of these Wizardry clones are such dumb copies that they carry over things like losing stats upon level up, characters getting turned to ash upon resurrection, having the option to stay in the stables for free at the inn in town, etc.

 

[Artyoan]

You played with 1.3 patch?
edit: weird, all patches have less than megabyte? No wonder game is still bugged.

Yep. It's 1.3

No bug issues so far after that. Pleasantly surprised with the game so far. I know I put my expectations very low but I'm enjoying myself in the first town. The sewers were actually a decent dungeon.

There was a lot of potential here.

 

[Parsifarka]

Destroying them was a matter of shooting arrows until breaking my finger, but still is a really memorable fights if only for the preposterous number of enemies.

Seriously? I considered that fight totally lame, one of the most stupid fights I have ever encountred in any cRPG. It was pathetic, just go up and shoot everything from above. 100-200 skeletons? It was not a challenge at all, just dumb clicking same button thousand times for 20 minutes.

What you say is true and I already acknowledged it in the post you yourself quoted -still, the battle is impressive because of the size of the enemy army.

As for M&M9, I tried to get into it several times but in my last try I got lost when reaching the second town. I don't think the game is THAT bad, fights can be quite tough and aesthetically still holds some charm in a completely silly way. Also, it has nice things, like having to pay for broken windows if you shoot at a temple. I wonder what will we get sooner, Grimoire or TELP patch 1.4.

 

[RuySan]

Why are all the Japanese Wizardry clones using engines that are less good than MM3, from way back in 1991? I mean in every Wizardry clone I've ever played, any kind of encounters, people, objects, etc. are completely invisible until you step on that space. Or the Elminage games show a silhouette of a person to mean that there is a person on that space. The world of MM3 was populated with people, events, towns, day/night patterns and tons of things that make the world feel alive. And the Japanese Wizardry clones that are even made TODAY are nothing but empty dungeons with invisible encounters and tons of grinding. I have no idea why they keep making them.

Is there really that much of a hardcore following that wants to repeatedly play games that are virtually indistinguishable from the very first Wizardry from 1981??? If you're going to copy a game, copy MM3 or MM6 or at least add something of your own. I mean most of these Wizardry clones are such dumb copies that they carry over things like losing stats upon level up, characters getting turned to ash upon resurrection, having the option to stay in the stables for free at the inn in town, etc.

I would brofist you one hundred times if I wasn't on tapatalk.

I still like these Japanese wizardry clones, but they're definitely not a patch on the best m&m's.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

Yeah I actually am enjoying Etrian Odyssey 4 right now. There's an overworld, lots of dungeons, miniquests and other things to do. But some of them are literally just Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord version 2016. It boggles my mind how they keep getting made year, after year.

 

[Great Deceiver]

From a pure dungeon crawling perspective, the best Wizardries and the best Wizclones are just vastly superior to Might and Magic in general (and I'm a huge M&M fan). They're not very similar types of games, to be honest. The best dungeon crawlers depend on tension and resource management whereas M&M is a more freeform game based on exploration and getting utterly and completely overpowered. The dungeon crawling experience in M&M games is usually very tame and simplistic.

Not really comparable and it shouldn't surprise anyone why people who like Wizardry-style dungeon crawling still play games like Wizardry.

 

[RuySan]

From a pure dungeon crawling perspective, the best Wizardries and the best Wizclones are just vastly superior to Might and Magic in general (and I'm a huge M&M fan). They're not very similar types of games, to be honest. The best dungeon crawlers depend on tension and resource management whereas M&M is a more freeform game based on exploration and getting utterly and completely overpowered. The dungeon crawling experience in M&M games is usually very tame and simplistic.

Not really comparable and it shouldn't surprise anyone why people who like Wizardry-style dungeon crawling still play games like Wizardry.

I beg to differ.... There's loads of dungeons that I do remember from m&m games, while I don't remember much from wizardries or many Japanese clones. And I did play wiz8 three times.

While my coding skills are rudimentary, I suspect that making menu driven RPGs like the Japanese do is easier and cheaper, and because there's already an audience for those games it's a zero risk endeavour

 

[Great Deceiver]

You can have played Wizardry 8 an infinite number of times and still not know what the fuck it is that makes Wizardry a great series, because Wizardry 8 isn't representative of that at all.

When I say " best Wizardries" I mean Wiz 3-7. Mostly 4 and 5.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but my point still stands that - irrespective of your reminiscence of this vs. that - floor plans and mechanics in M&M dungeons in general simply do not compare.

Your logic of "there's an audience for x type of game, so making them carries zero risk" is also very faulty - especially when you're considering an extremely niche type of game such as the first person dungeon crawler - but I think that's self-evident so I won't bother explaining why.

 

[RuySan]

I know very well what are the strengths of the Wizardry series (you just said so what those are), it's just that in some cases i disagree, and in others I value other things most, like puzzle design and atmosphere.

For example, even though i don't like the grid dance of real time blobbers, give me Grimrock 1 & 2 compared to early wizardries and its japanese clones. Love those puzzles, and how they're integrated into the environments.

Still, M&M and Albion above everything else.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Have you played Dark Heart of Uukrul? If you like puzzles and atmosphere in your dungeons...

I like Grimrock too, but the combat puts me off. I never finished the second one.

edit: just to clarify, what M&M would you consider the best in terms of dungeon design?

Finished my playthrough of WoX today. Can't be arsed to finish the Dungeon of Death. Overall a fantastic game and every bit as good as I remembered. Lategame is kind of boring because of lack of progression but that's a common theme with these games. Lategame dungeons are pretty fun, especially Dungeon of Death.

 

[RuySan]

Yes, i do remember playing Ukruul and enjoying it, but that was more than 20 years ago. What I remember mostly is that it was very slick and crispy.

As for M&M, probably VI is the one I have the most memories regarding dungeons since I replayed it not long ago, but objectively it might be DoX, even though it's ages since I played it.

I have a very soft spot for III though. It's like a theme park. I should play it again soon.

 

[Great Deceiver]

6 has great dungeons for sure, I'm starting a new playthrough of that game just after finishing WoX. It makes me sad that this sort of game wasn't really improved on. I feel like great things could be accomplished with modern tech and the same care and great ideas that went into it.

I've never actually completed MM3. I remember loving the MT 32 soundtrack, but that was so long ago.

 

[Dorateen]

The Dragon Pharaoh remains one of the most imaginative central NPC's introduced to any computer role-playing game. I still enjoy the backstory log from Xeen's manual, and especially get a kick out of this sequence of entries:

Spoiler

Log Entry: 4/5/850

An emissary from the rebel army demands my surrender to his master- Alamar. I refused, of course. He cannot possibly have the key to the pyramid.

Log Entry 4/6/850

Alamar has the key.

 

[Siobhan]

Speaking of DoX, it probably has the best video game intro ever, next to Syndicate Wars and Diablo 1. The three are very, very different, but they all capture the tone of their respective games brilliantly. A giant dragon with glasses and a purple cape that walks like a granny, plus the Saturday morning cartoon voice acting, it is so delightfully weird and over the top, and at the same time it is very moody and gets your blood pumping. And it does all of that in under 2 minutes. Other games from that era (including the otherwise excellent Albion, RoA3, and Settlers 2) often had pretty bland intros --- even the ones for Crusader No Remorse, Deus Ex and Diablo 2 are pretty meh, and those games are very atmospheric otherwise. Diablo 2's intro cinematic is actually more like what you find in modern games, where it is less about setting the mood and instead sets up the story, like the typical opening scene of a movie..