Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[zapotec]

New patches (5.2) from GrayFace for mm6, 7 and 8.
Looks like grandmaster bow didn't increase bow damage and we can finally have two quickslots for spells!!

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Newbies to the series today are often advised to skip the first game, on the argument that everything it does is done bigger and better by the later ones.

Is that the argument? Perhaps I just have tunnel vision on my own feelings on the game, but it always felt like the first Heroes game was inferior not only to its sequels but its predecessors, King's Bounty and Hammer of the Gods. Not just because those games had more, but because the original Heroes was clunky and unwieldy. It feels slower than it needs to. Its hard to put into words properly because every time I ever sit down and go, I should play Heroes 1 properly, once I get to playing, I start thinking there are better things I could be doing with my time.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I liked Heroes 1. Fuck, I'd play that as a mobile game if they didn't fuck such a thing up. Hammer of the Gods... haven't heard of that in ages and I lament I missed out on King's Bounty. I really wish back in my genesis years I would have picked that up when I found Starflight & Faerie Tale.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Is that the argument? Perhaps I just have tunnel vision on my own feelings on the game, but it always felt like the first Heroes game was inferior not only to its sequels but its predecessors, King's Bounty and Hammer of the Gods. Not just because those games had more, but because the original Heroes was clunky and unwieldy. It feels slower than it needs to. Its hard to put into words properly because every time I ever sit down and go, I should play Heroes 1 properly, once I get to playing, I start thinking there are better things I could be doing with my time.

Heroes 1 is quite good and Cyclops are the most powerful units there, which is quite prestigious, if you ask me.

2 expanded the bestiary but I don't like what 3 did with the Archangels and Demons, not that I dislike those units but this sawyerism is disgusting.
Also, 3 replaced Cyclops by behemoth and i'm not sure which one removed trolls but also a terrible change.
And the swamp units really don't cut it either.

Consistency wise, i liked I & II better and the only one evolving for the better afterwards was V.

 

[Lacrymas]

Black dragons are the most powerful units in Heroes 1. The Heroes franchise peaked with Heroes 1 tbh. Everything after that is either bloat or unnecessary. Well, Heroes 4 is the best Heroes game imo, but it's so radically different from the rest I don't count it in that "the Heroes franchise peaked with Heroes 1" statement. A case can be made that *some* additions like *some* skills and *some* unit upgrades in 2 made for a better game, but it was still unbalanced as all hell, so that's a bit moot.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Black dragons are the most powerful units in Heroes 1. The Heroes franchise peaked with Heroes 1 tbh. Everything after that is either bloat or unnecessary. Well, Heroes 4 is the best Heroes game imo, but it's so radically different from the rest I don't count it in that "the Heroes franchise peaked with Heroes 1" statement. A case can be made that *some* additions like *some* skills and *some* unit upgrades in 2 made for a better game, but it was still unbalanced as all hell, so that's a bit moot.

In characteristics alone, cyclops hitting two units and possibly avoiding retaliation by attacking the weaker one was good, it was my favorite, by far and wasn't so far behind anyway.

Not like in Heroes 2 where best units were Titans, because you could resurrect them with true resurrection, unlike Black Dragons.

And I hate heroes 4.
Heroes 1, 2 and 5 >> 3 > 4

 

[octavius]

I liked the H1 Cyclops. Having a one eye monster as missile troops felt a bit silly in H3.

Overall the graphics of H1 had lots of charm, and I liked that the magic system was different.
But it's not nearly enough to make me want to play any H1 maps.

 

[jackofshadows]

In characteristics alone, cyclops hitting two units and possibly avoiding retaliation by attacking the weaker one was good, it was my favorite, by far and wasn't so far behind anyway.

Why you hate 4 heroes then? You could hit there 9 units with cyclop, theoretically. And to easily avoid retaliation by just selecting... a tile next to enemy.

Not like in Heroes 2 where best units were Titans, because you could resurrect them with true resurrection, unlike Black Dragons.

Cool reasoning right there, mate. You don't count that black dragons are immune to opponent's magic, right?

But I agree with you that the 3rd, beloved by most game was sorta too balanced. 2rd was too unbalanced but that was part of the charm.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Why you hate 4 heroes then? You could hit there 9 units with cyclop, theoretically. And to easily avoid retaliation by just selecting... a tile next to enemy.

Cool reasoning right there, mate. You don't count that black dragons are immune to opponent's magic, right?

But I agree with you that the 3rd, beloved by most game was sorta too balanced. 2rd was too unbalanced but that was part of the charm.

Most units are invisible on HoMM IV's maps, it's my first grippe.
Also, Hero dies and it's game over so you can't attack powerful enemies anymore because they can just OS your main hero...

About Cyclops, are they not ranged AoE?
I prefer HoMM I close combat version better, particularly because they hit 2 tiles in front of them.
It was also nice, in HoMM II to have Crusaders hitting 2 times.

As for the Black Dragons immune to magic, sure but they're not a low magic Castle unit and you pay dearly their immunity, you can't heal them in battle, you can't resurrect them, you can't buff them...

If I was in charge of the future of the franchise, I'd come back to nice 2D graphics, would keep Barbarians units from 1, knights units from 2, wizards from 2 with titans and halfings.

Most of all, I'd render the hit & run tactics useless:

• Mines depend on a castle, once you get them from neutral units, the only way to steal them is to take the castle from their influence area first.
• No damage spells on turn one or only with high level heroes and prevents from fleeing.
• Reduced movement in enemy controlled areas up to 50% you could reduce with the pathfinder skill to 75%

And so on to improve the gameplay making it more like a wargame on the worldmap.

 

[jackofshadows]

Most units are invisible on HoMM IV's maps, it's my first grippe.
Also, Hero dies and it's game over so you can't attack powerful enemies anymore because they can just OS your main hero...

Wha? Are you talking about fog of war? I think it was a cool change considering that units could move on their own now. As for heroes I'm not sure what you mean - you can always resurrect them in any castle or temple. Or via spell. Then there're op potions of (auto) resurrection.

About Cyclops, are they not ranged AoE?
I prefer HoMM I close combat version better, particularly because they hit 2 tiles in front of them.
It was also nice, in HoMM II to have Crusaders hitting 2 times.

Yes. AoE ranged, 9 tiles per shot. I mean, how cool is that? In H2 I beleive cyclops also had splash damage. Crusaders work same in 3 and 4, hardly unique feature. Only if compared to h1?

As for the Black Dragons immune to magic, sure but they're not a low magic Castle unit and you pay dearly their immunity, you can't heal them in battle, you can't resurrect them, you can't buff them...

Yes but they have insane speed and can attack 2 units per hit so imo that beats any potential buffs/ress later on. Also you can absolutely dominate with them by spamming armageddon. Best. Unit.

And so on to improve the gameplay making it more like a wargame on the worldmap.

Have you played h6? That's what was it about: a strategy game. Auto-taking mines, streamlined resources, you can convert castles ala AoW and much more except it turns out to be boring, at least to me. I'd better play Civ or something for that. Nah, it was cool that heroes of might and magic series was rather about you know, heroes and not castles.

As for 2D - it was inevitable switch in times where h5 were in development but I can easily see now turn back to 2D if it comes to the next game or some spiritual successor. Hipsters like their pixel art, after all

 

[lukaszek]

Black dragons are the most powerful units in Heroes 1

please dont bring racism into homm1, there were no black dragons

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Just cuddly purple dragons. From Dragontales.

 

[octavius]

Well, the HoMM artists were women...

 

[BruceVC]

Well, the HoMM artists were women...

You make me laugh, is that true? I dont mind what the sex of the artists are but I do like to see dragons that are scary and intimidating....do you know like dragons are suppose to be ?

Next thing we going to see a choice where " you have to consider the feelings and emotional state of the dragon before you stop it from slaughtering the entire town and razing it to the ground "

 

[octavius]

HoMM is not supposed to be edgy, scary or realistic. It's a fun, light hearted and, for a strategy game, abstract game.
So I have no problems with pink dragons. It's part of the charm of the game, IMO.

I don't know if a woman actually drew them, though. But the art director and one of the three credited artists are women.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

There has to be more artists than this:
Heroes 1
Artist(s) Julia Ulano

Heroes 2
Artist(s) Julia Ulano

Heroes 3
Artist(s) Phelan Sykes

Heroes 4
Artist(s) Joseph McGuffin
Fernando Castillo

Heroes 5
Artist(s). Andrey Supryaga
Kirill Naumov
Victor Surkov

Heroes 6
Artist(s) Tamás Sándor

Heroes 7
Artist(s) fuck if i know


Bah I should have checked mobygames

Heroes 1
Art Director Julia Ulano
Artist Joel Payne, Bonita Long-Hemsath, Michael J. Winterbauer

Heroes 2 - Succession Wars
Art Director Julia Ulano
Assistant Art Director Bonita Long-Hemsath
Artists Julie Bateman, Rebecca Riel, Shelly Dremann, Sam Hasson, Louis Henderson, Tracy Iwata, Steve Jasper, April Lee, Lieu Pham, Phelan Sykes, Steve Wasaff, Scott White

Heroes 2 - Price of Loyalty
Art Director Seth Spaulding
Art Lead Thomas Gale
Artists Julie Airoldi, Michael Baker, Michael Clarke

etc etc

 

[BruceVC]

HoMM is not supposed to be edgy, scary or realistic. It's a fun, light hearted and, for a strategy game, abstract game.
So I have no problems with pink dragons. It's part of the charm of the game, IMO.

I don't know if a woman actually drew them, though. But the art director and of the three credited artists are women.

Okay I see what you mean and good points raised, I dont know much about HoMM so I just assumed dragons would be " dragons "

 

[BruceVC]

There has to be more artists than this:
Heroes 1
Artist(s) Julia Ulano

Heroes 2
Artist(s) Julia Ulano

Heroes 3
Artist(s) Phelan Sykes

Heroes 4
Artist(s) Joseph McGuffin
Fernando Castillo

Heroes 5
Artist(s). Andrey Supryaga
Kirill Naumov
Victor Surkov

Heroes 6
Artist(s) Tamás Sándor

Heroes 7
Artist(s) fuck if i know


Bah I should have checked mobygames

Heroes 1
Art Director Julia Ulano
Artist Joel Payne, Bonita Long-Hemsath, Michael J. Winterbauer

Heroes 2 - Succession Wars
Art Director Julia Ulano
Assistant Art Director Bonita Long-Hemsath
Artists Julie Bateman, Rebecca Riel, Shelly Dremann, Sam Hasson, Louis Henderson, Tracy Iwata, Steve Jasper, April Lee, Lieu Pham, Phelan Sykes, Steve Wasaff, Scott White

Heroes 2 - Price of Loyalty
Art Director Seth Spaulding
Art Lead Thomas Gale
Artists Julie Airoldi, Michael Baker, Michael Clarke

etc etc

I just wanted to add how you often provide a wealth of information especially around CRPG, I appreciate the effort you put in to share things and stories

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

My sister loved the game. Naturally she took the leader that had unicorns. In fact she kept bugging me to fix the game because she liked purple and certain things. I said I ain't a programmer so choose a leader. Sorceress it was.

She didn't care for the dwarf because she didn't like the one in labyrinth. She liked TROLLS like the toys (i heard she was elated with the later movies where i went "meh."

She wanted centaurs swapping out dwarves, trolls swapping out druids, dragons swapping out the phoenix. Just conquer a warlock and a barbarian and you can have em. I think i rolled randomly but on what was left.

In MULE, I can't recall what she chose but she preferred the NES. Lordy, we played the hell out of that game.

Its funny she rubs my face in the fact she beat the Genesis ver of Lunar: the Silver Star before me. I was playing The Terminator CD over and over again, so no wonder. I breathed and ate termination. You get to where you have to play the game on the hardest and still you end up with extra lives in surplus. Ah, loved that game. I did beat Lunar eventually and then grinded each alt to lvl 99 and tried to find those damn stat raising fruit/nuts. The end boss was such a pushover at that point.

 

[BruceVC]

My sister loved the game. Naturally she took the leader that had unicorns. In fact she kept bugging me to fix the game because she liked purple and certain things. I said I ain't a programmer so choose a leader. Sorceress it was.

She didn't care for the dwarf because she didn't like the one in labyrinth. She liked TROLLS like the toys (i heard she was elated with the later movies where i went "meh."

She wanted centaurs swapping out dwarves, trolls swapping out druids, dragons swapping out the phoenix. Just conquer a warlock and a barbarian and you can have em. I think i rolled randomly but on what was left.

In MULE, I can't recall what she chose but she preferred the NES. Lordy, we played the hell out of that game.

Its funny she rubs my face in the fact she beat the Genesis ver of Lunar: the Silver Star before me. I was playing The Terminator CD over and over again, so no wonder. I breathed and ate termination. You get to where you have to play the game on the hardest and still you end up with extra lives in surplus. Ah, loved that game. I did beat Lunar eventually and then grinded each alt to lvl 99 and tried to find those damn stat raising fruit/nuts. The end boss was such a pushover at that point.

I like this story about your sister, it reminds me of the choices my sister and other ladies I know would make. I love many of the obvious differences between the sexes like when you mention " Naturally she took the leader that had unicorns"

And especially when she beat Genesis before you, nice one sister. The world would be a sad and lonely place without the various ladies in our lives

 

[octavius]

I like this story about your sister,

I have a feeling you don't know that

is not a positive rating.

 

[BruceVC]

I like this story about your sister,

I have a feeling you don't know that

is not a positive rating.

Oh, I didnt. I assumed it was because it means " great contribution\participation ". Thanks for letting me know because I would have continued to use it thinking it was a positive rating

 

[Darth Canoli]

Have you played h6? That's what was it about: a strategy game. Auto-taking mines, streamlined resources, you can convert castles ala AoW and much more except it turns out to be boring, at least to me. I'd better play Civ or something for that. Nah, it was cool that heroes of might and magic series was rather about you know, heroes and not castles.

I'm pretty sure my autistic neighbor can come up with something better than HoMM 6.

Crusaders work same in 3 and 4, hardly unique feature. Only if compared to h1?

H2 Crusaders were top tier unit so they were stronger and could tank somewhat where H3+ Crusaders are canon fodder.

Wha? Are you talking about fog of war?

Nope, about how how most units sprites are about the same colors as the dirt and you can barely see what's what.
Even get ambushed sometimes if you're not careful.
It's just plain ugly.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I still love the modding community at heroescommunity.com. That's where I found out about Wake of the Gods and Forgetown for Heroes 3.

 

[jackofshadows]

I'm pretty sure my autistic neighbor can come up with something better than HoMM 6.

H6 was quite boring to me but it's still made by relatively competent people. The end product is not terrible at all. Its main problem that it's called HoMM 6. Anyway, my point was that lets not turn series into something else entirely by your own example h4 get huge hate wave for exactly that.

H2 Crusaders were top tier unit so they were stronger and could tank somewhat where H3+ Crusaders are canon fodder.

Nope. That's the fun thing about h2 - top tier of human castle is a fucking joke, has 50 hp and low stats. Something something like minotaur.

Nope, about how how most units sprites are about the same colors as the dirt and you can barely see what's what.
Even get ambushed sometimes if you're not careful.
It's just plain ugly.

Well, thay had shoestring budget. I think global map looks fine. Perhaps you need to spend some time to be able to distinguish what's what. Playing with "moving mobs" should also help