Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The Outer Worlds: Spacer's Choice Edition - Obsidian's first-person sci-fi RPG set in a corporate space colony

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
26,148
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
Een0tX1WAAYrOPv.jpg



Trudoden (Russian: Трудодень, portmanteau literally meaning labourday) was a unit of value and type of accounting of quantity and quality of labor (as a factor of production) in collective farms (kolkhozes) of the Soviet Union in 1930 – 1966. It literally means a day of labor. It also was a form of wage payments.

Members of collective farms were paid based on the amount of trudodni (plural form) earned. Payments to the collective farm members were made with natural products such as grain when and if they were able to realize their products.


Oh, the sweet irony!
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,629
I just had a vision of the near future. I see companies paying extra work with virtual currency that can be spent to acquire virtual gadgets in online games (that are being developed by the employers of the same companies).
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,353
"They must work 800 hours a week to produce more fun video games!"

Lord Executor Shackleford, writing from his desk while slaving away at his masterpiece, the Accumulated RPG Codex Posts of Lord Executor Shackleford
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
How many great artists(of all fields) do you think worked only 40 hours a week on their masterpieces?
Self-imposed overworking and overworking forced by the management are two different things.
Nobody is forcing them to do it, they can quit when they want.
You can't be serious. Maybe with companies outside of America, but within it, in this industry? You'll be jobless within a week if you try to just work what you're legally required to, and don't even think about getting compensation for all your extra work, you get good boy points only.
Een0tX1WAAYrOPv.jpg
Who is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to work at a video game development company?
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/370220/Directing_The_Outer_Worlds_DLC_The_Peril_on_Gorgon.php

Directing The Outer Worlds' first narrative expansion The Peril on Gorgon

While Obsidian gears up on new games like Grounded and Avowed, it hasn't turned away from last year's standout hit The Outer Worlds. This month saw the release of Peril on Gorgon, a new DLC adventure for the developer's capitalistic dystopian RPG.

To lead up this DLC, Obsidian tapped lead narrative designer Carrie Patel, who took over game directing duties from Leonard Boyarsky and Tim Cain. It's a huge task for any game developer to take the role, since it often involves a move into leadership over departments they weren't previously involved in.

What do players want in narrative DLC?
Peril on Gorgon is structured similar to some of the DLC content you might have seen in BioWare's RPG games from the 2009-2014 period, or what Gearbox has used to fill out its Borderlands releases. They're specific stories sequestered away in a new area of the game, meant to be experienced by players who've reached the endgame or new players attracted to the title with the release of new content.

Peril on Gorgon takes place on the sequestered Gorgon asteroid, home of a mysterious research facility. Patel credited the post-release development of Gorgon for giving Obsidian time to look closely at what players responded positively to in the original game, which helped her team hone the vision for the DLC.


PD_The_Outer_Worlds_Peril_On_Gorgon_Screenshot_Moonman.jpg


She said this led Obsidian to look closely at the game's Marauder enemy types and the in-game drug called Adrena-Time as sources of inspiration, since both go somewhat unexplored in the main game. Unlike most of the other games' areas, Gorgon draws players into a noir-type adventure by way of a package containing a severed arm, where a mysterious heiress tasks them with tracking down her missing mother.

Patel credited lead narrative designer Kate Dollarhyde with helping shape Peril on Gorgon's overall thematic direction. "One thing that Kate specifically brought up was the idea of the Manhattan Project and the notion of these people who work together on something terrible and destructive, and then they sort of split up and fell apart from each other," Patel said.

She said the team looked at the problem as "how you tell a story where someone's personal experience is very much what grounds a much larger epic, world altering experience?"

What's neat about Patel's described approach is this storytelling focus centers on the game's non-playable characters, rather than the player character. She compared it to The Outer Worlds' other planet-driven arcs, which focused on local disputes informed by a system-wide crisis, and drift away from the game's main quest.

"This is one of the thing that I think that I think is very interesting about RPGs in general is that this genre has a reputation for being all about the the survival of kingdoms the conquest of world...but I think what many players really attached to are stories that feel personal."

Building a language to lead around
When it came to taking over the role of game director, Patel said there wasn't necessarily pressure to live up to Cain and Boyarski's original vision, and that the main challenge was in learning to provide vision for other, non-narrative departments that were outside her previous purview.

The DLC's noir-focused vision meant the team had to figure out how a far-off asteroid could resemble the classic look of '40s crime flicks, and how character and story could be filled out without an area filled with bustling NPCs.

"The pulp noir version of The Outer Worlds had really big implications for environment art and area lighting," she explained. "[As a director,] it's really helpful to just say 'here's the vision we want to create, and as a cross-disciplinary team, if we're all on the same page about this, what are the different tools that we have from our disciplines to do that?"


PD_The_Outer_Worlds_Peril_On_Gorgon_Screenshot_Dialogue_Parvati_3.jpg


Laying the foundation for making that shared vision meant learning how to ask questions over her seven years with the studio. "I think doing well in that transition is very much about learning how to ask the questions that you need to ask," she said. "I will never be an expert programmer or an accomplished artist. But I do need to be able to talk to the programming and the art teams to understand what their processes and concerns are and how that affects the content we're gonna make."

Patel's narrative designer background gave her a new perspective on a classic RPG problem--what happens when you make great content, only for the player to speed right by it, or ignore it, on their choice-drive adventure? She explained that Obsidian's procedure by this point is to test and build around the possibility of any NPC in a questline being killed, but part of the process means adopting a mentality that players may not be approaching your game for the same moments you enjoyed in maknig it.

"Part of the beauty of an RPG, I think, is having a structure that is open and flexible enough to give all of those players enough room to make their story the way they want it," Patel said. "I think as a designer, you just have to accept that like, 'okay, I put this thing here, not everyone's gonna see it, but the people who are interested in it, who do look for it and find it like they're gonna I love it.'"

"In a way that makes it even more meaningful because you kind of know who you're creating those moments for."

Patel's leadership rise comes with one particular complication--the COVID-19 pandemic that moved the team to remote work. Any leader has particular challenges in uniting the team, but without face-to-face interactions, the normal tools of team unity aren't available to her. This led Obsidian to push for some creative teambuilding efforts.

One of them was Peril on Gorgon bingo. "[What] we actually did as a team that was that was pretty fun is have [Twitch streamer] Cohh Carnage play through the DLC over the last few days, and we set up an office bingo," Patel said with a laugh. The boards were specifically built to cover Peril on Gorgon's wilder moments, to see what he'd find in his run.

"It was something we could do to remotely just to connect around the stuff we worked on in a really light hearted social manner."
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,629
Would pyramids be a good counter-example willy?
Regarding slavery one can argue that, given a specific work, slaves tend to have less crunch than "free" laborers. The difference is based on the fact that in slavery, the employer own the slaves, he has spent money for them, hence if he broke them or too much crunch renders them too exhausted to work in his next projects, he is actually loosing manpower and money. Hence the employer is also motivated to invest for the health of the slave and for his well being. In the modern free market, the workers are not owned, they are rented. There is no need to reduce the crunch or to invest in the well being of the workers. If you break them, you can easily switch them with fresh new ones with zero additional cost.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
Would pyramids be a good counter-example willy?
Regarding slavery one can argue that, given a specific work, slaves tend to have less crunch than "free" laborers. The difference is based on the fact that in slavery, the employer own the slaves, he has spent money for them, hence if he broke them or too much crunch renders them too exhausted to work in his next projects, he is actually loosing manpower and money. Hence the employer is also motivated to invest for the health of the slave and for his well being. In the modern free market, the workers are not owned, they are rented. There is no need to reduce the crunch or to invest in the well being of the workers. If you break them, you can easily switch them with fresh new ones with zero additional cost.
I would expect that a new employee needs some training=investment before he can work efficiently. Is game development so simple that you can switch out people on a whim ?
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,629
Would pyramids be a good counter-example willy?
Regarding slavery one can argue that, given a specific work, slaves tend to have less crunch than "free" laborers. The difference is based on the fact that in slavery, the employer own the slaves, he has spent money for them, hence if he broke them or too much crunch renders them too exhausted to work in his next projects, he is actually loosing manpower and money. Hence the employer is also motivated to invest for the health of the slave and for his well being. In the modern free market, the workers are not owned, they are rented. There is no need to reduce the crunch or to invest in the well being of the workers. If you break them, you can easily switch them with fresh new ones with zero additional cost.
I would expect that a new employee needs some training=investment before he can work efficiently. Is game development so simple that you can switch out people on a whim ?
Intern are made for this reason...

More seriously, obviously there is an amount of training=investment to change personell. This is the main currency through which working people have still some way to negotiate with the employer. How much it cost to train new people depends on the specific kind of work. If the work is very non standard and high level, it could cost a lot to change people. This is the main reason why usually you don't see too much imposed crunch on these kind of high level works.

However consider this: In slavery, the education of the slaves was payed entirely by the employer. It was an huge investment. In modern times companies look directly for people with the best hyperspecialized CV. Basically these people are already trained with an education that already match 99% or more of the needs of the companies (you have to put in "education" everything, from basic school to PhD, working experiences, courses, etc.). The cost of this education is huge, immense, and in almost all the cases it is completely self-funded by the workers themselves (through direct payment, taxes, insurances, loans, etc.) and then exploited by companies with very minimal investment.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
Would pyramids be a good counter-example willy?
Regarding slavery one can argue that, given a specific work, slaves tend to have less crunch than "free" laborers. The difference is based on the fact that in slavery, the employer own the slaves, he has spent money for them, hence if he broke them or too much crunch renders them too exhausted to work in his next projects, he is actually loosing manpower and money. Hence the employer is also motivated to invest for the health of the slave and for his well being. In the modern free market, the workers are not owned, they are rented. There is no need to reduce the crunch or to invest in the well being of the workers. If you break them, you can easily switch them with fresh new ones with zero additional cost.
I would expect that a new employee needs some training=investment before he can work efficiently. Is game development so simple that you can switch out people on a whim ?
Intern are made for this reason...

More seriously, obviously there is an amount of training=investment to change personell. This is the main currency through which working people have still some way to negotiate with the employer. How much it cost to train new people depends on the specific kind of work. If the work is very non standard and high level, it could cost a lot to change people. This is the main reason why usually you don't see too much imposed crunch on these kind of high level works.

However consider this: In slavery, the education of the slaves was payed entirely by the employer. It was an huge investment. In modern times companies look directly for people with the best hyperspecialized CV. Basically these people are already trained with an education that already match 99% or more of the needs of the companies (you have to put in "education" everything, from basic school to PhD, working experiences, courses, etc.). The cost of this education is huge, immense, and in almost all the cases it is completely self-funded by the workers themselves (through direct payment, taxes, insurances, loans, etc.) and then exploited by companies with very minimal investment.

To be honest i don't have a good notion what crunching actually implies, what kind of work is done by whom. I thought it encompasses pretty much the whole developer studio except management. I was under the impression that hierarchies are rather flat/shallow in game dev, but i could be entirely wrong about that.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
662
I ended up playing the DLC. I'm surprised to say that the review posted a couple of pages ago wasn't entirely off the mark, this place depicts some of the worst and most vile shit any corp in the game has tried to pull off. The problem with that is that the dlc, like the main game, never actually gives you any reason at all to side with them or even try to justify such actions anyway. If I'm not playing a lawful evil character (and even then not really, the shit the board pulls is everything but and it'd go against my character regardless since they'd come from the Hope) why would I EVER side with the people that tried making cocaine and failed so spectacularly that
THEY CREATED EVERY SINGLE MARAUDER IN THE GAME BECAUSE OF IT AND PUT THE REST INTO MEAT CUBES
?? The writers themselves couldn't come up with ONE good excuse for my character to do that or to even justify their actions, it was all "No they must've had a good reason" or "oh I just did it for the lulz haha".
It's not even worth it for the money because I checked out the other ending on youtube and you get MORE money for choosing the right thing instead of helping your contractor, without any reason given why. At the start of the DLC I was told I'd get enough to buy me a mansion and several hours later I get... 3000 bits.
I had 7000 from loot alone right then.
It's a shame because even if the main plot twists were super obvious and the reason for everything is
the drugs made them crazy/they were greedy lol
the backstory for the asteroid was pretty cool and I overall enjoyed it more than the base game even. It just doesn't work for a RPG game where I have to choose sides, because again, why would I even side with the bad guys who WILL fuck me over, and when money is worthless given what is happening not only within the story, but in the very gameplay itself?
At least Caesar's Legion had proven themselves competent over every other faction on the west coast (bar NCR) and their way of life somewhat fitted what the times demanded. You could see why they were the way they were, even if the game recognized their faults and admited it was doomed to fail. I just can't see any reason why The Board would do any of the extreme shit that it does in this game and even less in this DLC.
 

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,737
You can't be serious. Maybe with companies outside of America, but within it, in this industry? You'll be jobless within a week if you try to just work what you're legally required to, and don't even think about getting compensation for all your extra work, you get good boy points only.
Een0tX1WAAYrOPv.jpg

They can choose to work at McDonalds with you instead.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
662
You can't be serious. Maybe with companies outside of America, but within it, in this industry? You'll be jobless within a week if you try to just work what you're legally required to, and don't even think about getting compensation for all your extra work, you get good boy points only.
Een0tX1WAAYrOPv.jpg

They can choose to work at McDonalds with you instead.
Oh I wish I could have a job at McDonalds, I could use the human interaction. No, I do something much worse instead.
Drawing porn for a living.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
662
Oh I wish I could have a job at McDonalds, I could use the human interaction. No, I do something much worse instead.
Drawing porn for a living.
Porn for a living
Furry porn is the only thing profitable enough
On 3:20
https://www.facebook.com/Renegad3Angel/videos/376807636067705/

Also someone wants to seriously ask, how much money do you make?
More than I thought I'd make, less than what you'd think. I don't draw furry though so maybe that's the problem
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
3,281
More than I thought I'd make, less than what you'd think. I don't draw furry though so maybe that's the problem

I recently read about a guy who claimed that doing furry animated porn allowed him to move up to UK and make around 3k pound per month.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,578
Location
Bulgaria
Oh I wish I could have a job at McDonalds, I could use the human interaction. No, I do something much worse instead.
Drawing porn for a living.
Porn for a living
Furry porn is the only thing profitable enough
On 3:20
https://www.facebook.com/Renegad3Angel/videos/376807636067705/

Also someone wants to seriously ask, how much money do you make?
More than I thought I'd make, less than what you'd think. I don't draw furry though so maybe that's the problem
Is that many furry degenerate out there? Any shit on e-hentai to check out?
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
I ended up playing the DLC. I'm surprised to say that the review posted a couple of pages ago wasn't entirely off the mark, this place depicts some of the worst and most vile shit any corp in the game has tried to pull off. The problem with that is that the dlc, like the main game, never actually gives you any reason at all to side with them or even try to justify such actions anyway. If I'm not playing a lawful evil character (and even then not really, the shit the board pulls is everything but and it'd go against my character regardless since they'd come from the Hope) why would I EVER side with the people that tried making cocaine and failed so spectacularly

Yeah I don't think this is unique to the DLC. Going with the corporations sucks either way. My first playthrough I did a corporate merc kind of character, and it was a super bleh experience story wise. Playing as a Han Solo type freedom guy the second time around fit the setting ten times better. In an ideal world the game would have New Vegas' scope and the corporations would be an evil lark playthrough like the Legion but still leave 3-4 other routes to take. Unfortunately it only has two real factions, making for a lame alternative to the obvious default. I sort of lump this in with all the other budget/scope related issues, but like having 300 lockpicks it doesn't explain it all away. At some point the design was flawed.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
662
More than I thought I'd make, less than what you'd think. I don't draw furry though so maybe that's the problem

I recently read about a guy who claimed that doing furry animated porn allowed him to move up to UK and make around 3k pound per month.
sounds about right honestly, there's definetly a market for this stuff alright

Is that many furry degenerate out there? Any shit on e-hentai to check out?
Mine? Pretty much all of the commissions I do are private to the individual.
Furries seem to either have a lot of money or be willing to spend lots on their hobby so that's where the "if you want to go big pander to furrys" comes from

Yeah I don't think this is unique to the DLC. Going with the corporations sucks either way. My first playthrough I did a corporate merc kind of character, and it was a super bleh experience story wise. Playing as a Han Solo type freedom guy the second time around fit the setting ten times better. In an ideal world the game would have New Vegas' scope and the corporations would be an evil lark playthrough like the Legion but still leave 3-4 other routes to take. Unfortunately it only has two real factions, making for a lame alternative to the obvious default. I sort of lump this in with all the other budget/scope related issues, but like having 300 lockpicks it doesn't explain it all away. At some point the design was flawed.
When I saw the trailers for the game before release I thought every company would be their own entity and you could side with each one if you wanted, and while there's a reputation system in the game it turned out everyone's represented by the Board, making them basically a monopoly and diluting them all into one big entity. Even if this wasn't the case they barely have any actual differences between eachother, the only one I can recall is Spacer's Choice being the one that makes china-tier products.

The only ones that aren't like this are the ones on Monarch and imo those aren't very good at all - their leadership and most of the people you meet from there are wayyy too cheerful and quirky for a settlement set in a god forsaken alien jungle where they even mention it's common place for people to be dragged out at night by the big acid lizards.

Maybe it is the scope like you mention, they did say that they made an awful lot of feature cuts to meet the deadline and Boyarsky even said the last one was a bit too much. We can only wait and see if they get it right for the secuel now that Microsoft is sure of this IP's potential.
 

Smerlus

Educated
Joined
Mar 29, 2020
Messages
141
I usually dont mind DLC but this one really bothered me and it is hard to explain why. It's almost like the bench warmers at Obsidian tried to copy the New Vegas DLC and that is what my main gripe was.

They tried to explain something that took place over the main game like it was a big reveal and it was something so asinine that I didn't really care.

The ending I got also didn't offer an over-all resolution to the issue, it just patched up a relationship and leaves things hanging a lot like the ending of the main game did.

Also I think the level designers blow compared to Bethesda. Bethesda actually does some good story telling the way they set up areas and leave props/items laying around. Obsidian's crew is "oh we will show you guys these people are addicted to drugs. We will put drugs on everyone, in every box and throw 40 of them around a building."

It's so ham fisted.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
When I saw the trailers for the game before release I thought every company would be their own entity and you could side with each one if you wanted, and while there's a reputation system in the game it turned out everyone's represented by the Board, making them basically a monopoly and diluting them all into one big entity. Even if this wasn't the case they barely have any actual differences between eachother, the only one I can recall is Spacer's Choice being the one that makes china-tier products.

Yeah, the only impact the factions had at all outside of Board approval/disapproval that I could really see was the vendor prices. I'm sure there are some other little things here and there, but nothing really impactful.
 

jungl

Augur
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
1,478
is the codex even the market for outer worlds? Its such a on rails casual shooter/rpg hybrid checking all the boxes for casual gamer. My hype for this franchise is non existent. A lot of indie games are better.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom