The problem with turn-based games is the only "tactics" are the builds.

[SkiNNyBane]

I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead. Usually, the very first area in a game is the most difficult before you figure out what works and repeat it ad nauseum. Essentially you abuse the very predictable AI, and the actual tactical puzzles are very few.

They give you movement limitations as if the game ever truly takes advantage of them. Increasing difficulty only limits viable builds and game styles without doing much of anything to improve on the puzzles because the only real puzzle is builds and repeating the same tactic over and over once you figure it out.

Peak of gaming are games like doom eternal and dark souls series. Yes, the adventures in codex beloved games like fallout, bg2, etc... are great but the gameplay is basically witcher 3. You are all hypocrites. Nearly all the top 100 rpg codex games suffer exact same problem as Witcher 3 and just because the game is "turn-based" does not make it any less braindead. Instead of spamming left click, you spam the same "tactic" in turns as if it makes any meaningful difference.

I am sure turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle at every turn exists (like chess), I just haven't found it. I am not saying real time are much better (Witcher 3 says hello), but at least I've played quite a few well-designed gameplay loops in RT games. Perhaps forcing quick decision making in a real time fight makes for a much easier puzzle design set up for meaningful combat.

Cope in comments to your hearts content.

 

[Artyoan]

I like both but real time games tend to emphasize reflexes and memorization, often with increasing difficulty by simply speeding up the fights. Demon Souls went from slow and deliberate to Elden Ring's onslaught of attacks. Still good but burnout occurs when the answer to all things is the same routine with small variations.

Turn based games are better when they avert strictly predictive outcomes via chance based spells/abilities. A fight where spells have 70% chance to land can play out quite differently each time it is tried, even under the same circumstances.

Solution: Play multiple game types and when burnout occurs, switch it up.

 

[sser]

It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead. Usually, the very first area in a game is the most difficult before you figure out what works and repeat it ad nauseum.

You could apply that logic to almost everything, actually (games, movies, sex, drugs, life, etc.). You're describing the reason "roguelites" have grown in popularity, as they insert gambling mechanics (finding item combos, namely) to juice up the gameplay and give variation to every playthrough. That said, I would point out that many games you referenced (top 100 yadda yadda) can often be played with party variations that radically change how the games are played, especially if it's solo vs. with a party. A long time to exhaust potentialities is usually a sign of a game with solid depth. Pointing out that it's all "builds" seems pretty reductive when the actual gameplay can be wildly different. But even then, it's dense to say Dark Souls is somehow different from this when you have people playing it blindfolded or speed-running seven games without getting hit while simultaneously talking to Twitch chat.

Turn-based games give you infinite time to figure things out, so if you use that time then you'll never be satisfied You're playing "chess" where you can get up and do fucking whatever forever while the other "person" has to sit there. The closest thing you'll find to what you want is to play a game like Into the Breach, Jupiter Hell, etc., but to speed-run it, which is akin to a chess timer. The next closest thing is to do is play multiplayer, say Blood Bowl or something akin to it, where you not only have a timer, but you're playing against actual people.

 

[Faarbaute]

Everything is solvable. I wouldn't hold that against turn based RPGs in particular, any more than any other game. What was that expression? If you're still having fun, you haven't got good enough, yet.

 

[JarlFrank]

Play Knights of the Chalice 2, it actually has a good AI that doesn't always do the same thing.

 

[Jvegi]

Bg2 scs on high difficulty is more tactically demanding than any tb shit there is.

It's not even close.

 

[frajaq]

I dont think there's anything wrong with "solving" games (this happens in most genres). Most turn based games I enjoyed playing lately (Trails JRPG series, BG3 and now SMT 5) have more going for them besides ONLY the turn-based combat (story/characters/exploration)

 

[Butter]

Play Knights of the Chalice 2

Evergreen advice.

 

[S.torch]

Maybe stop cheating and min-maxing and try to actually play the game as intended.

 

[scytheavatar]

Forcing the player to switch tactics now and then is good game design and a necessity if devs want their games to be engaging

Forcing the players to switch tactics every fight would be too much and playing through such a game would be exhausting.

 

[gabel]

[...] Peak of gaming are games like doom eternal [...]

 

[behold_a_man]

I am sure turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle at every turn exists (like chess), I just haven't found it.

Puzzle at every turn...? That is, the action leading to a desirable outcome is hard to figure out every turn, and the battlefield doesn't change in an unpredictable way at the same time?
The subpart "turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle" describes Blackguards, but here, the viable strategy changes from fight to fight, not during the fight.

Everything is solvable

God luck solving the halting problem.

 

[Harthwain]

Essentially you abuse the very predictable AI, and the actual tactical puzzles are very few.

This is true for any game, not just turn-based ones.

Yes, the adventures in codex beloved games like fallout, bg2, etc... are great but the gameplay is basically witcher 3. You are all hypocrites.

Witcher 3? Try Witcher 1. That was some "spam left click" game. Witcher 3 is closer to Dark Souls or Gothic in terms of combat gameplay.

I am sure turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle at every turn exists (like chess), I just haven't found it.

Unity of Command 1 and 2. Really good games. They also implement enough variables to shake things up (mud, various combat outcome tables, etc.), which makes it more interesting than chess.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Play Flight Simulator.

 

[NecroLord]

Peak of gaming are games like doom eternal and dark souls series.

 

[Sweeper]

I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead.

Just play chess then. As of yet, as far as I'm aware, it's still not cracked.
Expecting vidya to scratch that itch is pants on head retarded.

 

[Serious_Business]

A lot of tactical games don't even have builds in the first place, but I assume you're trying to talk about newer tactical rpgs. I mean there are no builds in UFO, JA2, etc. Seems like a lack of experience here or something. It can be a valid critique in some cases, but it doesn't work as neatly as you think. You can't "crack" BB with builds, or even the Fireaxis games, they don't work like that. I don't know what the fuck you're going on about with the Witcher 3, I guess you're drunk or something. Otherwise if you want to play chess, play chess.

 

[just]

compile the most broken builds from the net
read all the guides how to progress most efficiently
exploit ai programming and bugs
complain on codex how easy the game is
dont finish the game coz it's still too hard

thats how i do it, works every time

 

[luj1]

I am sure turn-based games where every fight is a puzzle at every turn exists (like chess), I just haven't found it.

ToEE
KotC I
KotC II
Hearkenwold
Fallout Tactics
Tales of Maj Eyal

 

[gabel]

I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead.

Just play chess then. As of yet, as far as I'm aware, it's still not cracked.
Expecting vidya to scratch that itch is pants on head retarded.

Chess is learning openings and end games ad nauseam in this day and age.
Utter shite.

 

[Tyranicon]

Most turn-based RPGs try to replicate the tabletop ideal of tactical skirmishes. A human DM is of course better in many cases, but ultimately RPGs are deeply mathematical games.

With the proper game knowledge and ruthlessly exploiting overpowered builds, you'll achieve the same thing as in video games: trivializing combat.

Anybody who's been in the hobby long enough knows this is part of the fun.

If you are a munchkin who min-maxed the fun out of a game, it's because you chose to do so. Congrats, you beat the game.

 

[Brancaleone]

I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead. Usually, the very first area in a game is the most difficult before you figure out what works and repeat it ad nauseum. Essentially you abuse the very predictable AI, and the actual tactical puzzles are very few.

It's almost like, I don't know, the typical videogame AI doesn't learn and improve over time, while you do, and will eventually overcome it.

That's such a profound observation, I am literally this close to being blown away by it.

 

[Ghost Of Iron]

Well, part of the reason this happens is because of Alpha Strike syndrome, which is an issue that has plagued TB games, not just RPGs, for a very long time. The only game I've seen overcome this issue is Troubleshooters: Abandoned Children, where they came up with what they called the AT system and really made defensive builds actually viable and strong, which actually managed to solve the Alpha Strike syndrome. I can only hope that future TB games will look at the design of that game and copy those parts of it, as doing so would massively improve TB combat in general.

 

[Sweeper]

I've never played a turn-based game that isn't equivalent to playing chess where you know the AIs first 5 moves. It usually goes like this: you start a game not knowing any of the systems and at first. It's fun to figure out what works, but within a few hours you "crack" the game and it becomes braindead.

Just play chess then. As of yet, as far as I'm aware, it's still not cracked.
Expecting vidya to scratch that itch is pants on head retarded.

Chess is learning openings and end games ad nauseam in this day and age.
Utter shite.

Haven't played in years, and it may very well be shit and meta focused but it's still not solved, so if you're looking for something you'll not be able to crack, that's your best shot.

 

[Butter]

Chess is learning openings and end games ad nauseam in this day and age.
Utter shite.

This is only really true if you play at a high level. Go to lichess and play an anonymous unranked game. Play the King's Gambit or something that nobody has any preparation for. Within 4 or 5 moves it's just pure chess. Alternatively you can play Chess960.