The PS5 and Xbox 2 thread - it's happening

[Markman]

Just another rumor like 17 others before it.
I still hold that 599 is reasonable, if not cheap for this kind of hardware.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I don't wanna pay £500-600 for a console.

But that's a seriously big dick chip in that Xbox

 

[Morgoth]

SSD's, 7nm Wafers, Corona.... Yeah no way they're gonna sell those puppies below $600.

 

[toro]

Looks retarded to have so many people in a 3 min presentation of basic UI features. It's actually beyond retarded to hear one of those guys talk about 40% less memory.

Maybe the UI is the most important feature of the new Xbox!? Life is strange.

 

[mk0]

'Hot Chips 2020 Live Blog: Microsoft Xbox Series X System Architecture' https://www.anandtech.com/show/1599...ft-xbox-series-x-system-architecture-600pm-pt

This was published a few days ago, it goes over the details of XSX hardware.

Here's the same content in a more digestible format:



As it's laid out in the hot chips presentation, the main challenges for cost are the 7nm process and stagnant memory prices.

Usually with node shrinks you would get higher density chips with more transistors for less cost, but with 7nm you only get a smaller and more efficient chip. The wafer costs ate the generational bump, that's what happened with AMD's CPU and GPU offerings.
Memory prices haven't gotten any better since 2016~, those extra GBs go straight to the price tag, GDDR6 currently goes for around 10$/GB as per digikey.com.
Going from spinning rust to SSD also has to be taken into account.

From what I've learned so far, I think 599$ is still too optimistic for Series X. For context the Xbox One X was 499$ in 2017, the Series S will have a paired back GPU(6TF->4TF, 12GB->10GB) and a vastly superior CPU, storage solution and feature set, so wouldn't it be reasonable to expect the Series S to at least arrive at the same price point as the One X? Now if the Series S arrives at 499$, how much of a premium do you think the Series X would have to command to justify its existence on the market? Maybe add another 200$-300$...
The funny thing about this situation is that console plebs will cry about having to pay the cost of these high-end consoles and pc plebs will cry about their 1000$~ 'mid-range is enough for everybody' builds being rendered obsolete. Everyone gets shafted equally.

Getting a bit tired of talking about the hardware, what about the games?

 

[Markman]

What about the games?
Only this one got stuck for me besides the Ascent, Observer System redux.
Nice comparison of old vs new

 

[DalekFlay]

From what I've learned so far, I think 599$ is still too optimistic for Series X. For context the Xbox One X was 499$ in 2017, the Series S will have a paired back GPU(6TF->4TF, 12GB->10GB) and a vastly superior CPU, storage solution and feature set, so wouldn't it be reasonable to expect the Series S to at least arrive at the same price point as the One X? Now if the Series S arrives at 499$, how much of a premium do you think the Series X would have to command to justify its existence on the market? Maybe add another 200$-300$...
The funny thing about this situation is that console plebs will cry about having to pay the cost of these high-end consoles and pc plebs will cry about their 1000$~ 'mid-range is enough for everybody' builds being rendered obsolete. Everyone gets shafted equally.

Getting a bit tired of talking about the hardware, what about the games?

I think both companies know that PS4's $399 launch price was a big deal and helped that console succeed. I think both will try and deliver that somehow, so I think there's a lot of pressure for the PS5 digital only machine and the Xbox Series S to be $399. I know that seems low for the PS5, but they might be crazy enough to take the loss to maintain their maket dominance, banking on a cut of more digital sales. One reason prices have not been announced, on top of playing chicken, might be them trying to figure out if/how they can pull it off.

Just me spitballing.

 

[Kitchen Utensil]

IMO the only way for the Xbox to survive this generation (as a console) is to undercut PS5 with the digital model and not be more expensive with the top model. Both unlikely.

 

[Markman]

Think Phil said in one the interviews that they are gonna push more on that All Access program, 2 year subscription model. 25$ x 24 months is $600 plus 15 for Gamepass is not gonna break the bank if one compares what alot of ppl are paying for their new phones, especially in 'murica.

If poorfags wanna play along, this could be a good alternative.

 

[OndrejSc]

Or, Xbox Series S will be free with a 4 year subscription.

 

[DalekFlay]

nVidia today claiming that even the 2000 series is well ahead of the Xbox Series X teraflop count going by Microsoft's metrics:

 

[mk0]

Nvidia just nuked the GPU market with their RTX 30 series announcement, a 30TF 10GB(wait) RTX 3080 for 699$ and a 20TF 8GB(wtf?) RTX 3070 for 499$, rip anyone who bought a new GPU in the last two years lol.

I guess the real competition was consoles all along, figured as much. Feeling more optimistic about PS5/XSX pricing now that this has come to light.

Edit: the 30TF and 20TF figures are apparently boost clocks, with base clocks it's 25TF for 3080 and 17.6TF for 3070

 

[Silva]

Translate that shit: should I get PS5 or Xbox5 ? (or neither)

 

[DalekFlay]

Translate that shit: should I get PS5 or Xbox5 ? (or neither)

I mean, you should get a gaming PC obviously, but if that's not an option... Series X is mostly more powerful and has better backwards compatibility, but Sony seems to have the more popular exclusive games and will likely be a bit cheaper. That's my summary as a PC gamer who pays half attention anyway.

 

[The Decline]

Translate that shit: should I get PS5 or Xbox5 ? (or neither)

Get a refurbished PS5 4 or 5 years into its lifespan if there are are more than 5 decent, exclusive games you want to play. No point in the Xbox if you have a gaming PC.

 

[Markman]

Very good pricing from Nvidia and its a nice spit in the face to anyone that bought 20x card. A bit of schadenfreude here for any idiot that went out and got himself 2080 Ti.

Its a bit tactical too for anyone looking to upgrade, like if they went similar like last gen $800 for 3070 and $1000 for 3080 alot of people would go fuck you, imma get a $500 console instead. This puts it inbetween where you choose a nice desktop upgrade or a new console for same money.

Also new 30 sec Sony ad dropped yesterday

 

[Konjad]

Translate that shit: should I get PS5 or Xbox5 ? (or neither)

Rtx 3070

 

[soulburner]

I must say I was a bit surprised by the Ampere Geforces, the performance uplift is pretty substantial. Although I still think ~$500 is too much for a *70 card, it is pretty nice it's supposedly at RTX 2080Ti level.
Of course, we must wait for proper reviews and benchmarks, but based on the specs, an RTX3070 should last for the whole lifetime of the next-gen consoles (unless it runs out of VRAM ).

Now we need AMD and their RDNA2 to be able to compete.

 

[Dyet]

Nvidia just nuked the GPU market with their RTX 30 series announcement, a 30TF 10GB(wait) RTX 3080 for 699$ and a 20TF 8GB(wtf?) RTX 3070 for 499$, rip anyone who bought a new GPU in the last two years lol.

I guess the real competition was consoles all along, figured as much. Feeling more optimistic about PS5/XSX pricing now that this has come to light.

Don't get fooled by the TF figures. Nvidia doubled the ALUs per SM without making the required changes to use them to a good degree. Great for marketing, but the performance won't be what you'd expect of a 30TF card.

That said, it's a hell of a lot better than Turing.

I must say I was a bit surprised by the Ampere Geforces, the performance uplift is pretty substantial. Although I still think ~$500 is too much for a *70 card, it is pretty nice it's supposedly at RTX 2080Ti level.
Of course, we must wait for proper reviews and benchmarks, but based on the specs, an RTX3070 should last for the whole lifetime of the next-gen consoles (unless it runs out of VRAM ).

Now we need AMD and their RDNA2 to be able to compete.

3070 is overpriced, they're probably getting better margins on it than the 2070. The 3080 is, shockingly, the better value card this time around. I don't like the VRAM amount on either one, I'm fully expecting additional options with more of it.

nVidia today claiming that even the 2000 series is well ahead of the Xbox Series X teraflop count going by Microsoft's metrics:

Don't listen to Nvidia marketing. Jensen also said the next gen consoles are weaker than a 2080 Max-Q, which is rubbish. Even the 2080ti is not that far ahead of the Series X in performance.

 

[Morgoth]

Nvidia just nuked the GPU market with their RTX 30 series announcement, a 30TF 10GB(wait) RTX 3080 for 699$ and a 20TF 8GB(wtf?) RTX 3070 for 499$, rip anyone who bought a new GPU in the last two years lol.

I guess the real competition was consoles all along, figured as much. Feeling more optimistic about PS5/XSX pricing now that this has come to light.

Edit: the 30TF and 20TF figures are apparently boost clocks, with base clocks it's 25TF for 3080 and 17.6TF for 3070

Those "shader-TF" Nvidia is using is marketing wizardry thought. A 20TF RTX 3070 is about as fast as a 13.5TF RTX 2080 Ti?

 

[Dyet]

Nvidia just nuked the GPU market with their RTX 30 series announcement, a 30TF 10GB(wait) RTX 3080 for 699$ and a 20TF 8GB(wtf?) RTX 3070 for 499$, rip anyone who bought a new GPU in the last two years lol.

I guess the real competition was consoles all along, figured as much. Feeling more optimistic about PS5/XSX pricing now that this has come to light.

Edit: the 30TF and 20TF figures are apparently boost clocks, with base clocks it's 25TF for 3080 and 17.6TF for 3070

Those "shader-TF" Nvidia is using is marketing wizardry thought. A 20TF RTX 3070 is about as fast as a 13.5TF RTX 2080 Ti?

Peak FP32 throughput doesn't mean much if the utilization is bad. Look no further than AMD's failures in the recent past, namely the Fury X, Vega and Radeon VII (which were all competitive in TFLOPS but got blown the fuck out in games, for different reasons than Ampere). In Ampere's case, the additional FP32 SIMD is probably putting pressure on the regfiles among other things. Possibly, the bottleneck is bandwidth or rasterization. The result is that "performance per TFLOPS" compared to Turing goes way, way down. So 20TF 3070 is only about equal to the 2080ti.

It's a huge marketing win for Nvidia and seemingly a decent win in performance, so it makes sense why they did it. Now they can market how they blow away the consoles in terms of TFLOPS even with their mid range cards, and AMD too.

 

[DalekFlay]

Don't listen to Nvidia marketing. Jensen also said the next gen consoles are weaker than a 2080 Max-Q, which is rubbish. Even the 2080ti is not that far ahead of the Series X in performance.

You make some good points, but the Series X being "not far off from a 2080ti" is astronomical bullshit according to pretty much every tech piece I've read the last 6 months.

 

[Dyet]

Don't listen to Nvidia marketing. Jensen also said the next gen consoles are weaker than a 2080 Max-Q, which is rubbish. Even the 2080ti is not that far ahead of the Series X in performance.

You make some good points, but the Series X being "not far off from a 2080ti" is astronomical bullshit according to pretty much every tech piece I've read the last 6 months.

You can look at the specs and come to that conclusion yourself. 5700XT is 40 RDNA CUs at ~1800MHz. Performance is around 7% lower than a 2070 Super which is about 5% slower than a 2080. Series X is 52 RDNA2 CUs at a sustained 1825MHz. Even assuming no improvements in overall performance from changes in RDNA2, you're looking at a GPU that's quite a bit faster than a 2080. As a bonus, DigitalFoundry estimated the Series X's performance in a half baked, unoptimized Gears 5 port that was produced in 2 weeks to be at around 2080 performance. Better yet, it ran at quality settings better than what the PC version has.

So, not that far off a 2080ti fits, in my opinion. Especially considering the performance advantage that's inherent to consoles compared to PCs of similar specs. We'll have to wait and see about how exactly it performs, though.

 

[DalekFlay]

You can look at the specs and come to that conclusion yourself. 5700XT is 40 RDNA CUs at ~1800MHz. Performance is around 7% lower than a 2070 Super which is about 5% slower than a 2080. Series X is 52 RDNA2 CUs at a sustained 1825MHz. Even assuming no improvements in overall performance from changes in RDNA2, you're looking at a GPU that's quite a bit faster than a 2080. As a bonus, DigitalFoundry estimated the Series X's performance in a half baked, unoptimized Gears 5 port that was produced in 2 weeks to be at around 2080 performance. Better yet, it ran at quality settings better than what the PC version has.

So, not that far off a 2080ti fits, in my opinion. Especially considering the performance advantage that's inherent to consoles compared to PCs of similar specs. We'll have to wait and see about how exactly it performs, though.

I've seen the 2070S/2080 comparison myself a bunch of times, yeah. Console vs. PC comparisons aren't that exact of course, but I recognize most tech sites treat that as the rough equivalent. My comment was more about underestimating the 2080ti performance difference to those cards. Depends on the game and how GPU limited you are of course, but I've seen the 2080ti report massive, massive framerate gains over the standard 2080. It's a beast of a card. Either way... I think the more central point is the 3070 will beat the 2080ti at a mainstream price before the new consoles even launch, which is (to my memory) pretty unprecedented. And the Series X won't even be the standard console experience, the PS5 likely will be. Also this doesn't even factor in ray tracing performance and DLSS, and the supposed memory techniques which remove the PS5's memory speed advantages.

This isn't a "lol consoles" post, I think consoles are great things for the people who want that standard, mainstream experience. It's just interesting from a market perspective that a mid-range PC will be in this situation compared to them on day one this time around, despite them reportedly being more expensive and powerful machines than usual.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

an RTX3070 should last for the whole lifetime of the next-gen consoles (unless it runs out of VRAM ).

To be revisited in 6 years. The gtx 770/r9 290/290x were easily 2-3x more powerful than what was in the current consoles at launch, yet I don't think anything earlier than the 2014/2015 gtx 980/980ti was enough to last the whole generation without issues.

Would be wiser to just let the new consoles come out, let next-gen console games and their pc ports come out to see what kind of pc it takes to run those maxed out at double the console res and double the console framerate, as you need at least that overhead to account for increasingly underperforming pc ports over a console's lifetime if you want it to last instead of having to upgrade every 2-3 years.

It's also hard to judge how game's new SSD/DirectStorage requirements in 2022 will work out with 2020 hardware.