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Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

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Codex Year of the Donut
Those are game parameters. That's not the point of 2da files.

I know the files layout of JA2 that it doesn't have or use world rule system information.

Okay, I'll play along. What kind of "world rule systems" do your precious 2da files carry that JA2 configuration tables don't?
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Category:2da

For example:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Domains.2da governs which cleric domains are in the world and which domain spells clerics receive at each spell level.
There's no reason this information couldn't be stored in a ini file. I couldn't imagine why you'd think the data storage format would decide whether something is an RPG or not.
 

Viata

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This forum is a comedy. Not only do we have people calling DE an rpg, now the defining factor is if the game has or not a .2da file. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Btw, someone should check if DE has a .2da file, it may stop any discussion on it being or not an rpg. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

Jason Liang

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Those are game parameters. That's not the point of 2da files.

I know the files layout of JA2 that it doesn't have or use world rule system information.

Okay, I'll play along. What kind of "world rule systems" do your precious 2da files carry that JA2 configuration tables don't?
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Category:2da

For example:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Domains.2da governs which cleric domains are in the world and which domain spells clerics receive at each spell level.
There's no reason this information couldn't be stored in a ini file. I couldn't imagine why you'd think the data storage format would decide whether something is an RPG or not.
Are you even a programmer. A .ini file is a list, not a table. That's the whole point of the 2da structure - it's a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY, i.e. a TABLE. Like the tables in the Player's Handbook. Jagged Alliance doesn't have tables because it doesn't use that information because it's not a role playing game. It's the difference between telling a ghost story and playing a pnp rpg.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Sawyerite
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Bloodlines stores all its stats in anyone-can-modify-em txts by the way. :M
 
Vatnik Wumao
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... 2da files are also unencoded text files.
They could also offer free blowjobs, doesn't mean that a game isn't an RPG if it doesn't have 'em.

I'm not a tech autist, but aren't 2da files specifically a BioWare thing? Are you implying that there are no RPGs beyond BioWare titles?
 

Jason Liang

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A .ini file is a list, not a table. That's the whole point of the 2da structure - it's a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY, i.e. a TABLE
A ini file is a key-value lookup you retard. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from using it however you want to.
The point isn't whether or not that information can or cannot be stored in a text file, since it's all text files. The point is that bioware defined this structure to store rule system information because Infinity Engine was designed for role playing games, and JA doesn't store rule system information because it does not have them because it's not an rpg.
 

Jason Liang

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... 2da files are also unencoded text files.
They could also offer free blowjobs, doesn't mean that a game isn't an RPG if it doesn't have 'em.

I'm not a tech autist, but aren't 2da files specifically a BioWare thing? Are you implying that there are no RPGs beyond BioWare titles?
Bloodlines and Dragonfall have the equivalent of 2da files. JA does not.
 

mondblut

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Those are game parameters. That's not the point of 2da files.

I know the files layout of JA2 that it doesn't have or use world rule system information.

Okay, I'll play along. What kind of "world rule systems" do your precious 2da files carry that JA2 configuration tables don't?
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Category:2da

For example:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Domains.2da governs which cleric domains are in the world and which domain spells clerics receive at each spell level.

Explosives.xml governs which grenades are in the world and IMPItemChoices.xml governs which of these characters receive at the start of the game. Wait, you thought it's a single ini file? Still not 2da, though - IRL, xml has won a file format war.

Now, could you maybe pick something not setting-specific, or repeat "An RPG has to have magic, or it's not an RPG" and be branded retarded forever?
 

mondblut

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Those are game parameters. That's not the point of 2da files.

I know the files layout of JA2 that it doesn't have or use world rule system information.

Okay, I'll play along. What kind of "world rule systems" do your precious 2da files carry that JA2 configuration tables don't?
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Category:2da

For example:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Domains.2da governs which cleric domains are in the world and which domain spells clerics receive at each spell level.
There's no reason this information couldn't be stored in a ini file. I couldn't imagine why you'd think the data storage format would decide whether something is an RPG or not.
Are you even a programmer. A .ini file is a list, not a table. That's the whole point of the 2da structure - it's a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY, i.e. a TABLE. Like the tables in the Player's Handbook. Jagged Alliance doesn't have tables because it doesn't use that information because it's not a role playing game. It's the difference between telling a ghost story and playing a pnp rpg.

PiiiPVp.png


Oh noes, it looks suspiciously like a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY. One of the hundreds there.
 
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After you said that it's file extension which decides if a game is an rpg or not, you can't back off. You have to keep moving forward otherwise you would look stupid.
 

Jason Liang

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Those are game parameters. That's not the point of 2da files.

I know the files layout of JA2 that it doesn't have or use world rule system information.

Okay, I'll play along. What kind of "world rule systems" do your precious 2da files carry that JA2 configuration tables don't?
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Category:2da

For example:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Domains.2da governs which cleric domains are in the world and which domain spells clerics receive at each spell level.
There's no reason this information couldn't be stored in a ini file. I couldn't imagine why you'd think the data storage format would decide whether something is an RPG or not.
Are you even a programmer. A .ini file is a list, not a table. That's the whole point of the 2da structure - it's a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY, i.e. a TABLE. Like the tables in the Player's Handbook. Jagged Alliance doesn't have tables because it doesn't use that information because it's not a role playing game. It's the difference between telling a ghost story and playing a pnp rpg.

PiiiPVp.png


Oh noes, it looks suspiciously like a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY. One of the hundreds there.
Does this store rule system information? No.
 

Jason Liang

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After you said that it's file extension which decides if a game is an rpg or not, you can't back off. You have to keep moving forward otherwise you would look stupid.
I said JA is not an rpg because it lacks files that define game rule systems. The lack of these systems is why it's not an rpg.
 
Last edited:

mondblut

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Those are game parameters. That's not the point of 2da files.

I know the files layout of JA2 that it doesn't have or use world rule system information.

Okay, I'll play along. What kind of "world rule systems" do your precious 2da files carry that JA2 configuration tables don't?
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Category:2da

For example:
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Domains.2da governs which cleric domains are in the world and which domain spells clerics receive at each spell level.
There's no reason this information couldn't be stored in a ini file. I couldn't imagine why you'd think the data storage format would decide whether something is an RPG or not.
Are you even a programmer. A .ini file is a list, not a table. That's the whole point of the 2da structure - it's a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY, i.e. a TABLE. Like the tables in the Player's Handbook. Jagged Alliance doesn't have tables because it doesn't use that information because it's not a role playing game. It's the difference between telling a ghost story and playing a pnp rpg.

PiiiPVp.png


Oh noes, it looks suspiciously like a TWO DIMENSIONAL ARRAY. One of the hundreds there.
Does this store rule system information? No.

It stores information on which type of attachment can be attached to which slot on what kind of item. Sounds like rule system to me, albeit somewhat lacking clerics and magic.
 

Jason Liang

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That's rules, not a rule SYSTEM. But perhaps that isn't the key issue you're missing.

Jagged Alliance has rules that govern combat, like Battletech or Warhammer. But Battletech and Warhammer aren't rpg systems. Why? What does AD&D or VtM have that Warhammer lacks? Rule systems that define a world. That's the data that IE stores in 2da files, and is missing in JA, and in King's Quest.

Think about for example the rule systems in Ultima games. They are what make Ultima games rpgs, instead of adventure games.
 
Last edited:
Joined
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Codex Year of the Donut
That's rules, not a rule SYSTEM. But perhaps that isn't the key issue you're missing.

Jagged Alliance has rules that govern combat, like Battletech or Warhammer. But Battletech and Warhammer aren't rpg systems. Why? What does AD&D or VtM have that Warhammer lacks? Rule systems that define a world. That's the data that IE stores in 2da files, and is missing in JA, and in King's Quest.

Think about for example the rule systems in Ultima games. That makes Ultima games rpgs, not adventure games.
Being a god isn't what you'd expect, though, Sune was all over me from day one...I hear she developed a thing for turnips about a decade ago. She just wouldn't leave me alone! There were parties at all hours of the night. Lliira would get plastered and fall into the tiny pond and eventually Torm would start a brawl with somebody. Did you know what it's like to have Helm pounding on your door at three in the morning? I could never get any sleep at all. If it wasn't one thing it was getting slapped by Umberlee or hit on by Loviatar. All night long...and in the morning, all the gods would be in a foul mood. Terrible. I couldn't find anything good about the experience at all. No wonder Ao kicked them all out. He probably had to catch up on his housekeeping, of all things. Well, after all of that I was more than happy to let Cyric have the job, eager puppy that he was. Left it behind me for a turnip farm and a nice pension, and gladly...although I eventually traded the pension for some stock in a spelljammer trading cruiser, which was a bad decision but all us mortals aren't immune to that, of course. Lost the farm, too, in a game of checkers to Uncle Fibbert. But that turned out all right, as the turnips got a bad root that year and Uncle Fubbert died of too much intestinal gas. Poor man.
 

mondblut

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That's rules, not a rule SYSTEM. But perhaps that isn't the key issue you're missing.

Jagged Alliance has rules that govern combat, like Battletech or Warhammer. But Battletech and Warhammer aren't rpg systems. Why? What does AD&D or VtM have that Warhammer lacks? Rule systems that define a world.

But JA2 rules aren't limited to combat. There are rules for picking and breaking open locks, for disarming traps, for carrying weight, for exhaustion - everything that AD&D does. Yes, there are no stats affecting conversations (or are there? I vaguely remember that the outcome of some dialogues may depend on how intimidating a party member is), but neither are there in the majority of RPGs from the days before storyfaggotry took over.

Battletech might not be an rpg system, but Twilight 2000 very much is.

Think about for example the rule systems in Ultima games. They are what make Ultima games rpgs, instead of adventure games.

That's funny, Ultima has always barely passed as an RPG and was constantly lumped as an adventure game hybrid. Does it have a 2da file? With 3 stats, it must be a really small one.
 

mushaden

Augur
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Aug 12, 2015
Messages
334
Guys I can’t participate in this discourse because I don’t know what a system is, but where tf is Lilura?
 

Metronome

Learned
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I said JA is not an rpg because it lacks files that define game rule systems. The lack of these systems is why it's not an rpg.
This is an odd way to define RPGs to begin with. Some games don't even have any accessible files beyond the executable.
 

Ninjerk

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RPG's are not usually based
Doesn't mean an rpg should not be allowed to do that.

Let me put it this way: If your game uses primarily elements of strategy games, then it is a strategy game (with RPG elements).

The question is whether there are more strategy elements or RPG elements in JA2.
It's been a bit since I've played JA2, but there are no resource gathering units or structures--merely do you own the resource generating sector and did you convince the character who governs that sector to work with you? I'm not even going to bother with spoilers here--you need to use your mercs to negotiate and at times maintain relationships (see: getting violent with the airport guy) with the characters that govern those sectors, no?

One more thing, I've heard that it's possible (likely with metaknowledge and very good IMP character-building) to finish the game without capturing any sectors (and hence without capturing any resource generators).
 

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