Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

[Latro]

In any case, the question is asked and the answer is given every single time. When will the retards of the RPGCodex learn to accept it? What is an RPG? It's the combat, stupid.

 

[Viata]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Mystic_Quest

It's different. This game was aimed to kids that bought a SNES and never played a JRPG, unlike the Japanese ones that thousands of jrpgs to play, both on Famicom and its successor.

 

[JarlFrank]

In any case, the question is asked and the answer is given every single time. When will the retards of the RPGCodex learn to accept it? What is an RPG? It's the combat, stupid.

It's the character creation and development, stupid.

If it's "the combat" then Doom is an RPG.

 

[overly excitable young man]

In any case, the question is asked and the answer is given every single time. When will the retards of the RPGCodex learn to accept it? What is an RPG? It's the combat, stupid.

But JRPGs arent about combat but about dating cat eared lolis.

 

[Kainan]

Weren't you going to cover Gothic in your blog? Am I remembering that right? How's it coming along?

Proof I went through it:

Sorry, neither Gothic game was worth writing a retrospective on. Now, I'm all about X-COM.

Its really retarded to write off Gothic in this way.
Do you know a better action rpg than G1/2 with better combat, exploration, questing and open world?

 

[Latro]

In any case, the question is asked and the answer is given every single time. When will the retards of the RPGCodex learn to accept it? What is an RPG? It's the combat, stupid.

It's the character creation and development, stupid.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Go sit in a corner and smell your feet.

Neither of these games have pre-made characters, are they not RPGs?

Spoiler

 

[Viata]

It's the character creation and development, stupid.

Not all CRPGs have character creation or development. Your definition doesn't even include games that are famous for being CRPG(there is no character creation in Torment, for example).

 

[Urthor]

Disco Elysium was released less than 12 months ago and yet we're at the point of making a thread like this.

Just goes to show this forum is infested with turn based tactical fans masquerading as RPG connoisseurs

It's the character creation and development, stupid.

Not all CRPGs have character creation or development. Your definition doesn't even include games that are famous for being CRPG(there is no character creation in Torment, for example).

There has to be some level of character, as in individual, traversing some sort of narrative. Even a cycle of self improvement is not particularly necessary, plenty of games have no level ups or any amount of increasing ability, but a fundamentally an RPG is about moving a *character* around.

RPGs are about the portrayal of journey of individual actors. Combat is not a necessity as such, that's absurd when you look at pacifist Deus Ex runs and Thief, the word you want is gameplay loop.

 

[Sweeper]

Just goes to show this forum is infested with turn based tactical fans masquerading as RPG connoisseurs

t. visual novel enthusiast

Combat is not a necessity as such, that's absurd when you look at pacifist Deus Ex runs and Thief, the word you want is gameplay loop.

Jesus Christ dude.

 

[Cat Dude]

There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

You once again forgot about Gothic 1/2. I don't know why you keep doing that.

Weren't you going to cover Gothic on your blog? Am I remembering that right? How's it coming along?

Gothic? They need to learn on how to make proper sword swing animation.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's the character creation and development, stupid.

Not all CRPGs have character creation or development. Your definition doesn't even include games that are famous for being CRPG(there is no character creation in Torment, for example).

Lmao when you start Torment you allocate your stats and there's vastly different TNO builds you can make.

 

[Latro]

If it's "the combat" then Doom is an RPG.

which reminds me

guess doom RPG is...uh, more RPG than regular Doom? lol

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

ELEX

 

[SlamDunk]

The whole computer and video games scene is weak. Very weak. Definitely the weakest it has ever been.

 

[Paper]

tbf doom is closer to wizardry than most larping simulators on the codex top 10 tho

 

[Viata]

It's the character creation and development, stupid.

Yet, we have:

Spoiler

Uncharted Waters. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Chaos World. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Romancing Saga 1. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Romancing Saga 3. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Megami Tensei 1. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Megami Tensei 2. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Majin Tensei 1. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Shin Megami Tensei 1. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Shin Megami Tensei 2. Character creation. JRPG(not RPG).

Dragon Quest 3. Party creation. JRPG(not RPG).

 

[Ol' Willy]

What is an RPG? The favourite RPG Codex question. But the answer is simple. RPG is a Role-Playing Game, danke schön, Captain Obvious. But what is a Role-Playing?

A lot of people confuse Roleplaying and LARPing. Like, "I play a good character, so I tend to do good thing and don't lie to people". That's LARPing, my friends. You can LARP like this in any given game. Even in Doom. Like, "My Doomguy was raised on farm, where his father taught him how to shoot with his old Remington. Because of this I tend to use shotguns most of the time. And, being a farmboy, my Doomguy dislikes Energy weapons.". Entirely possible.

Roleplaying presumes indirect interaction of player with the gameworld through the medium of player character. That is, games with direct interaction have a hard time being proper RPGs: it's not your character, it's you and your skill. It's you who controls movement and aiming directly in any given FPS, so it's your fault and lack of skill on your side if you miss or fail to dodge the incoming attack. The character in any game with direct control is your "puppet", totally depending on your skill. In RPG, it's your character who aims and shoots, and any miss is lack of skill on your character's side. That's why isometric perspective with indirect controls is the best medium for a RPG game. Though, FPS and third-person games where skills affects your controls to a greater degree could be described as RPGs (see Deus Ex). Also, now you can see why minigames have no place in RPGs: they test player skill, not the character's. While games with direct control put player at the position of "doer", games with indirect controls put player the level above - at the position of "choicer".

That's roleplaying. The columns, on which the roleplaying lies are:

1) Player character as indirect medium between the player and gameworld.
2) Outcome depends more on character skills and less on player' skill. Player chooses, character does.
3) There should be a lot of such interactions, obviously.
4) And choice, after all. Otherwise, it would be "Predetermined character playing game".

Everything else falls into these categories. You have dialogue: lines, that your character can come up with. Maybe you, player, know something, but you can say it because your character doesn't know this. Interactions with objects: maybe you, player, know how to fix three-phased electrical motors, but your character doesn't have Repair skill and thus fails. Etc.

And elephant in the room: what about combat? Thing is, combat just suits roleplaying games well. Combat is fun. Combat translates to indirect controls well. Combat has high replay value. Combat allows for a lot of choices. Game without combat could be a proper RPG, but, I reckon, it takes an exorbitant amount of skill to make it equal to RPG with combat in aforementioned criteria. There is still no combatless RPG equal to the best RPGs with combat.

And JRPGs. While they have some of the aforementioned "principles", they totally disregard some others or downplay them. Games like Dark Souls downplay points #1 and #2, isometric JRPGs are light on #3 and #4. Thus they are "RPG-mongrels" at best.

Fagout 3 is not RPG at all: it is light on all four points.

 

[Viata]

Any definition of what is an rpg that doesn't include Wizardry(and its clone) is shit by default.
Also:

minigames have no place in RPGs: they test player skill, not the character's.

I agree 100% with this.

 

[Butter]

RPG (noun):

1. Wizardry
2. its clone

 

[Mortmal]

Posting in it's summer lilura is bored thread too. I dont have anything to contribute either, but i agree summer is boring.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Any definition of what is an rpg that doesn't include Wizardry(and its clone) is shit by default.

My definition is better than the one Gregz has come up with.

Check any game with it.

Wizardry 1) true 2) true 3) true 4) true
Deus Ex: 1) half-true 2) half-true 3) true 4) true.
Fagout 3: 1) very little 2) very little 3) very little 4) very little
New Vegas: 1) half-true 2) half true 3) true 4) true

Now, what about Disco Elysium? Didn't play it, how does it fare here?

 

[Thac0]

1) Player character as indirect medium between the player and gameworld.
2) Outcome depends more on character skills and less on player' skill. Player chooses, character does.
3) There should be a lot of such interactions, obviously.
4) And choice, after all. Otherwise, it would be "Predetermined character playing game".

Any definition of what is an rpg that doesn't include Wizardry(and its clone) is shit by default.

My definition is better than the one Gregz has come up with.

Check any game with it.

Wizardry 1) true 2) true 3) true 4) true
Deus Ex: 1) half-true 2) half-true 3) true 4) true.
Fagout 3: 1) very little 2) very little 3) very little 4) very little
New Vegas: 1) half-true 2) half true 3) true 4) true

Now, what about Disco Elysium? Didn't play it, how does it fare here?

Disco:
1) True
2) True
3) Very true. You roll more skillchecks over an hour of gameplay than in any other rpg.
4) Half True? You have good character building, with skills, items and attributes, and as such a lot of choice over the character of Tequila. You also have two different alignment systems with some small to medium consequences and a hidden secret ending for good performance. Also playing the game well will result in missing less content. But the story is ultra linear and every scenario usually either resolves into success or failure, there is rarely a third path.

By your metrics 100% rpg.

Final Fantasy V: (or any NES/Snes FF)
1) True
2) True
3) Half-true, stats are checked only in combat. Games are mostly combat tho
4) Half-True, Again character building and party building choices only

By your metrics 75% rpg

Gothic
1) False
2) True
3) True
4) true (if not very true since different factions change the game heavily)

75% again

Dark Souls:
1) False
2) False (Half true for earlier titles)
3) False (Half true for earlier titles)
4) Half True (False for Dark souls 3 only)

12,5 - 37,5%, depending on which game is tested

Witcher 3:
1) False
2) False
3) Half True
4) True

37.5%, same as earlier Dark souls

You know what? I can live with this definiton. Add a fifth option like controlling a party for cleaner math, since Half True becomes 10% and not 12,5% then.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Add a fifth option like controlling a party for cleaner math

There's a plenty of single-character RPGs. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Question is, why do we have party-based RPGs? Why tabletop RPGs are mostly party based? I guess it's obvious: it's no fun to play tabletop with only two people, you and DM. It's a matter of preference, after all: some people like a crowd, some like it alone.

 

[barghwata]

1) Player character as indirect medium between the player and gameworld.
2) Outcome depends more on character skills and less on player' skill. Player chooses, character does.
3) There should be a lot of such interactions, obviously.
4) And choice, after all. Otherwise, it would be "Predetermined character playing game".

Any definition of what is an rpg that doesn't include Wizardry(and its clone) is shit by default.

My definition is better than the one Gregz has come up with.

Check any game with it.

Wizardry 1) true 2) true 3) true 4) true
Deus Ex: 1) half-true 2) half-true 3) true 4) true.
Fagout 3: 1) very little 2) very little 3) very little 4) very little
New Vegas: 1) half-true 2) half true 3) true 4) true

Now, what about Disco Elysium? Didn't play it, how does it fare here?

Disco:
1) True
2) True
3) Very true. You roll more skillchecks over an hour of gameplay than in any other rpg.
4) Half True? You have good character building, with skills, items and attributes, and as such a lot of choice over the character of Tequila. You also have two different alignment systems with some small to medium consequences and a hidden secret ending for good performance. Also playing the game well will result in missing less content. But the story is ultra linear and every scenario usually either resolves into success or failure, there is rarely a third path.

By your metrics 100% rpg.

Final Fantasy V: (or any NES/Snes FF)
1) True
2) True
3) Half-true, stats are checked only in combat. Games are mostly combat tho
4) Half-True, Again character building and party building choices only


By your metrics 75% rpg

Gothic
1) False
2) True
3) True
4) true (if not very true since different factions change the game heavily)

75% again

Dark Souls:
1) False
2) False (Half true for earlier titles)
3) False (Half true for earlier titles)
4) Half True (False for Dark souls 3 only)

12,5 - 37,5%, depending on which game is tested

Witcher 3:
1) False
2) False
3) Half True
4) True

37.5%, same as earlier Dark souls

You know what? I can live with this definiton. Add a fifth option like controlling a party for cleaner math, since Half True becomes 10% and not 12,5% then.

It's not a bad defintion, i would probably add something like "player agency" (the player can do whatever they want, initiate combat whenever they want or kill any npc and use any tool at their disposal etc.....) which would make Disco Elysium much less of an RPG; either way it's still much better then "HURR DURR!!! RPG=COMBAT".

There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

I agree but let's face it... JA2 and Deus Ex are barely CRPGs to begin with, one is more of a tactical/strategy game and the other is more of an immersive sim/stealth game, no wonder two of your top 3 RPGs are hybrids mixed with other genres and not actual CRPGs..... you clearly don't like CRPGs all that much.

 

[NJClaw]

The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

Yeah, that's why the entire world can't stop talking about Dark Souls. Fucking RPGs, nobody cares about them.

3rd person action games; there's a reason why dork souls is 10000x more popular than king's field. I will not deny they are RPGs, but they are not popular because they are RPGs.

They are popular for many different reasons, one of them being that you can play many different builds (especially in the field of PvP). Sure, the "action" part is probably the most important one (as we saw with Sekiro), but it's not the only one that matters (as we saw with Sekiro).

"The RPG genre is weak" is just dumb:
- Dark Souls and Bloodborne are two of the most important and influential games in recent history, the entire internet can't stop talking about them (recently a bit less, but Dark Souls content on the internet has been omnipresent for the last 10 years).
- The Witcher 3 won the "game of the year" award in 2015.
- Cyberpunk 2077 might very well be the most anticipated game right now.
- Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera were the most funded kickstarter videogames for a very long time.
- Motherfucking Skyrim.