Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

[overly excitable young man]

 

[Storyfag]

Now, I'm all about X-COM.

Oh this is gonna be rich.

 

[Kainan]

There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

You once again forgot about Gothic 1/2. I don't know why you keep doing that.

Weren't you going to cover Gothic on your blog? Am I remembering that right? How's it coming along?

Gothic? They need to learn on how to make proper sword swing animation.

Animation becomes more fluid as you pump up skills.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Take the top-ranked Codex RPG, Planescape: Torment. Now, put it in a top 10 with DOOM. Everyone'd be like, "What? Get that OUT". Because it's mostly just words.

Are you delusional? On the Codex RPGs would BTFO all the boomer strategies. Outside of Codex Skyrim alone would demolish them.

 

[Chippy]

I don't know anything about making games, but from the point of view of the layman who just stands there shaking their head and saying: "Why doesn't it just work?" I would say that the technology isn't keeping up with the expected evolution of games RPGs from gamers.

It's obviously too much work. I'm not being a prick, I'm just saying they obviously can't make a game that built on everything that came before - that people thought was good. E.g. I'm sure people wouldn't complain if they made a BG type game today, and implemented some of the weapon chages we saw with The Witcher 1. Stuff like axes causing massive bleeding damage and boosting your ability to dislodge an enemy shield. 'Simple stuff' like that. And then gradually more complicated - like your glass canon mage: if all his spells protections are gone, even if he has full HP, if a fucking werewolf gets within arms reach of that mage; he's dead. Just dead. Decapitated. Arms and legs everywhere.

I'm not saying go down the autist route. Those people that argue about rapier vs katana endlessly. But some perspective would be good. I don't care how much HP you've got: charge a dragon with a dagger and see how far you get. Games have been using Skyrim logic for too long.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Lilura, you are wrong.

The ultimate point of games is to create immersive alternate worlds that a person can get lost in and experience stuff they cannot in RL. From this perspective, RPGs are the closest genre to that (along with MMORPGs and action adventure games), as they have the deepest worlds.

 

[Darkzone]

Role playing term is derived from theater plays training

You see my point, china, why do you disagree then? Indeed, I was thinking about theater while writing this. When an actor plays a role, he interacts with his colleagues and spectators through the medium of that role; he's not projecting himself (some do, but let's leave it aside for now). If you play a deranged alcoholic you should act as deranged alcoholic, even if you are a teetotaler in a real life.

Every actor is playing always himself, because simply told a system does always makes a statement about itself. And for this reason every character is a bit different if played by other actor even if this is the same role in the same play. Therefore i a tee addict plays a deranged alcoholic he projects his perception and knowledge about a deranged alcoholic.

LARPing, though, given the CRPGs, is playing a role for yourself, in your head, not recognized by the game.

Implicit vs. Explicit. But that is not the definion of LARPinG.

1) There is always knowledge (metadata and etc..) that the player has that the player character doesn't have.
2) But even with this metric a FPS can be a RPG since even weapon spread can depend on the player character abilities. And you shoot a lot that is obviously a lot of interaction and in some games you choose whom to shoot.

1) I mentioned that. Did you read my post at all?

Yes therefore i have concluded that it is wrong based on false and contradictory statements and wrong definions.

2) Weapon spread usually hardcoded in the game files and not dependent on the character skill. If it is dependent, then I say "half-true", like in Deus Ex' case. Character skill does affect accuracy there, and you can change that skill.

Usually but not necessary. Spread, aim accuracy (erratic weapon movement) or reloading speed can be made to depend on the values and classes of player controlled characters. But does it make a RPG or not ?
Btw. Attributes have only values of true or false. You have to put different attributes in a logical conjunction to each other to generate a subset for exclusion. Look up Logic and First Order Logic and Set Theory.

And no, shooting people in a FPS is not an "indirect interaction". You move, you aim with your mouse, you press LMB - it's your hand-to-eye coordination, your reaction, not of your character. You make decisions and you execute them, instead of divulging the "doing" part to your character.

So aimbots make an FPS to an FP-RPG. The character is always executing what you decide to do in a computer game. Or do you mean VR games where the cameras are scanning your body and movement?
If you press jump (space) then you do not jump, but the controlled character does that, based on constant or variable parameter. And this is in first person or third person or in any other game or RPG where you have this as an ability (example Morrowind and Oblivion).
In most of the FPS reactions are not a thing, but the speed of movement of the controlled character (example Skyrim). (Just saying.)

So yes by your own metric Fallout 3 - 4, the witcher series and CP77 is a RPG, because the player character values (armor, health, dmg per second and etc) determine if the character can beat a deathclaw or not.
OK, let's look at typical "Player vs Deathclaw" fight in Fagout 3. I, the player, control movement and aiming myself, directly. Stats don't matter: PER doesn't give me more viewing distance; AG doesn't make me shoot and aim faster or dodge the incoming attacks; gun skill doesn't affect my accuracy and reload speed. It's mostly about mine, the player's, skill, not the skill of the character. Fuck, I would like to do the run of Fagout 3 with 0 in every skill just to prove my point, but I don't want to reinstall this shit.

Oh no there are some aspects of the player character that are not variable by the player. But that is often in games that you even consider RPGs.
Yeah do it, because i want to see if you beat a Feral Ghoul Reaver with a 10mm or bare fist on lv 1 in a closed room. The aiming is unimportant if you don't do enough damage and the movement also, if the enemy is faster then you and you cannot run away or out maneuver it. Because sooner or later the enemy will hit you and if you don't have enough HP then you are dead.
PER increases Explosives, Lock Pick and Energy Weapon. AG increases Action Points (VATS), Small Guns and Sneak. Only because you think that PER or AG should do something different that it does, that does not mean that this is not an RPG.

 

[Crispy]

I rarely shitpost in GRPG, so please forgive me:

Lilura is a man.

 

[Lagi]

so whats the top 10 games of all genres ever? someone for sure make a top list for that already -link please.

JA2, Doom, ...some strategy like what (x-com) ?... other?

 

[Calm]

For example, someone mentioned "moba" as a genre before. I don't even acknowledge moba existence. I'm over 30 years of age; of course I'm talking about traditional genre.

I may not agree with your underrating of the RPG genre but I fully agree with your complete and utter dismissal of MOBAs.

MOBAs are a degeneration of the RTS. It's what happens when you remove 99% of features that make RTS fun and pretend you made a new genre. It's literally Warcraft 3 with no resource gathering, no base building, no unit training, you just control one hero. Lame and boring, worst meme genre ever conceived of.

Hmmm, now you’ve got me thinking about parallels with the birth of RPG’s from war gaming.

Not a perfect comparison though.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I rarely shitpost in GRPG, so please forgive me:

Lilura is a man.

You also claimed Theodora was a man. I am beginning to suspect this is your primary dating strategy.

 

[jackofshadows]

For example, someone mentioned "moba" as a genre before. I don't even acknowledge moba existence. I'm over 30 years of age; of course I'm talking about traditional genre.

I may not agree with your underrating of the RPG genre but I fully agree with your complete and utter dismissal of MOBAs.

MOBAs are a degeneration of the RTS. It's what happens when you remove 99% of features that make RTS fun and pretend you made a new genre. It's literally Warcraft 3 with no resource gathering, no base building, no unit training, you just control one hero. Lame and boring, worst meme genre ever conceived of.

With all due respect, it's like dismissing football (ait, SOCCER). Yes, it's a silly kind of sport yet billions are watching it (again it refers to what merits OP were adressing other than trolling).

 

[Jrpgfan]

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

Pathfinder Kingmaker is better than all of them.
Also Underrail.

Idk if this post was ironic or not, but Underrail does have better exploration than all of those games and better combat than Fallout and DX. If it's a better game overall that's debatable.

 

[Crispy]

You also claimed Theodora was a man.

And?

 

[barghwata]

Idk if this post was ironic or not, but Underrail does have better exploration than all of those games and better combat than Fallout and DX. If it's a better game overall that's debatable.

Underrail has better exploration then Deus ex???? don't get me wrong i love underrail, and i think it has great exploration but deus ex's level design is a lot more open ended, non linear, and heavily rewards exploration (loot and resources, hidden paths and shortcuts, different approaches to achieving objectives etc.....) which are all things that underrail has of course but to a much lesser degree and with less rewards, not to mention that most of the gameworld in underrail is just empty caves filled with monsters.

 

[Latro]

Underrail is praiseworthy for its fun and unique combat in and of itself, but better “exploration” than F1 or DX? Lol

 

[jackofshadows]

Underrail is praiseworthy for its fun and unique combat in and of itself, but better “exploration” than F1 or DX? Lol

Much better, yes. Nothing to lol about.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Every actor is playing always himself, because simply told a system does always makes a statement about itself. And for this reason every character is a bit different if played by other actor even if this is the same role in the same play. Therefore i a tee addict plays a deranged alcoholic he projects his perception and knowledge about a deranged alcoholic.

Actor is not playing himself, actor adds his own experience or personal traits to a given character, just like a every chief prepares a dish with a little touch of his own style. Some actors can hardly remove their persona, some can immerse themselves into a character, especially users of method acting.

And talking about LARPing, there is a stable definition of this phenomena used by RPG players and particularly users of this site, so why come up with a new one?

Spread, aim accuracy (erratic weapon movement) or reloading speed can be made to depend on the values and classes of player controlled characters. But does it make a RPG or not ?

Weapon handling and behaviour dependent on character skill is one of the characteristic traits of a RPG, but not the single and defining one. You just reversed the premise: "because most RPG games have weapon handling determined by the character skill means that every game that has weapon handling determined by the character skill is a RPG." This is simply wrong.

So aimbots make an FPS to an FP-RPG.

Aimbot is governed by the character skill? You trying to nitpick, but I already have stated a good example of RPG mechanics in a FPS games: Deus Ex. No matter how good you are at shooters, using weapon with low according skill is pain. Player skill here is negated or enhanced by the character skill.

PER increases Explosives, Lock Pick and Energy Weapon. AG increases Action Points (VATS), Small Guns and Sneak.

Weapon skills and Action Points used only in VATS. They barely affect player accuracy or movement in a realtime mode.
And why should I fight Reaver with early weapons in a closed room? The hell it has to do with my "0 skill run" proposal? There's no stat or skill requirements in F3. Take Plasma, minigun, kite, use good armour, heal, use mines, ghoul mask (kek). Character progression in F3 is mostly HP bloat and equipment based; equipment based progression is common to many genres.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I didn't ever consider exploration to be a strong point of Fallout, am I missing something?

 

[Karellen]

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre. No one can agree on which ones are good examples of the genre, and even when that seems to happen, the popular examples are considerably different from one another. The legacy of pen-and-paper RPGs does nothing to clarify the situation, since PnP RPGs are very different from one another in the first place, and CRPGs are incapable of doing the things that actually defines and sets apart PnP RPGs. It seems to me that the genre lacks a firm foundation, and this being the case, making a CRPG is an endless zero sum process of compromises. Even people who have been in game development for decades don't seem to know how to make better games in this genre, because CRPGs are resistant to improvement through iteration and refinement. It's just not obvious what that refinement would look like.

I've argued this before, but basically it seems to me that CRPG developers are often chasing too many rabbits at once, to the effect that it's more important to have many mediocre features than a few well realised ones. This might have been fine years ago, but mediocre yet evocative features have mostly novelty value, and offer no way forward. Thus most new RPG projects, no matter how erudite they might be, fail to capture the ambition and charm of older games. This (not uncommon) talk about JRPGs is, in my opinion, indicative of the problem: CRPGs define themselves in contrast to JRPGs, as if to say, "look, you can do this or that thing in this game, unlike in dumbed-down popamole JRPGs!" But what's the point of having those features if they don't add up to good games that are fun to play?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

No one can agree on which ones are good examples of the genre

I'd be surprised if the majority opinion (on the codex) wasn't Fallout.

 

[Jrpgfan]

Underrail is praiseworthy for its fun and unique combat in and of itself, but better “exploration” than F1 or DX? Lol

It definitely has better exploration than Fallout. Sometimes you even feel like you're playing a blobber because of the huge continuous mazelike world. And there's no lack of things to explore and the "empty caves" are only there to add to the atmosphere and sense of acomplishment after reaching the interesting sites which are plenty and tightly designed.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Character skill vs player skill is necessarily a gradient. You can't eliminate player skill from the equation without removing the interactive component entirely. The player knowing what spells to cast and what enemies to focus is a form of skill after all.

Nobody is eliminating player's skill. There is a difference. With indirect controls you need the skill to make decisions, choices: for example, what weapon to use, where to aim, whom to aim, positioning, etc - but execution is dependent on the skill of your character. With direct controls you just do it yourself.

Let's say, Fallout. You want to kill mutie on the left, because he has plasma and the most dangerous one. Your best weapon is looted minigun. You have enough AP to come close and burst. So you do that. But your character misses and you say: "what a retard, how can he miss from the point blank"? Your character missed because he has low PER, low Heavy Guns and not enough STR to wield minigun without penalties.
Then F3, similar situation. Your character has 1 PER, 0 Heavy Guns and F3 doesn't even have STR requirements for weapons, but there is nothing stopping you from using that minigun: just keep the mutie in your sights and hold LMB.

RPG and FPS are my two favourite genres, so I know precisely where the difference lies.

 

[barghwata]

Underrail is praiseworthy for its fun and unique combat in and of itself, but better “exploration” than F1 or DX? Lol

To be honest i could easily be convinced that it has better exploration then Fallout or at the same level, deux ex though..... fuck no.

 

[mondblut]

JarlFrank is right, the image below gives a better representation of the difference between JRPG and RPG:

Fixed.