Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

[Tyranicon]

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre.

CRPGS are a troubled genre specifically for the reasons that the codex "don't care about." Specifically, sales, media feedback and marketing reach.

Sure we don't care about those things because they don't matter to us, the player. But they matter to devs, and there's hardly motivation for talented devs to tackle a niche that relays on an abundance of work, low financial gain, and low audience numbers.

This is why the only "rpgs" that succeed are FPSworders like Skyrim, action adventure like AC: Odyssey/Witcher 3, and JRPGs. The only recent outlier is DOS2, and the codex's reception to that one is... contentious at best.

 

[Ol' Willy]

tabletop roleplaying games are utterly irrelevant to CRPGs today

Only if you play popamoles

 

[Ninjerk]

Underrail has that Legend of Zelda/Castlevania room-after-room appeal, I think--if you like the core gameplay loop. I'm not sure that part of the Fallout experience was what I enjoyed.

 

[Sykar]

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre.

CRPGS are a troubled genre specifically for the reasons that the codex "don't care about." Specifically, sales, media feedback and marketing reach.

Sure we don't care about those things because they don't matter to us, the player. But they matter to devs, and there's hardly motivation for talented devs to tackle a niche that relays on an abundance of work, low financial gain, and low audience numbers.

This is why the only "rpgs" that succeed are FPSworders like Skyrim, action adventure like AC: Odyssey/Witcher 3, and JRPGs. The only recent outlier is DOS2, and the codex's reception to that one is... contentious at best.

/triggered
/rant mode
Seriously? DOS 2 reception was contentious for VERY good reasons. Niche? Well I guess niche means that actual talent is needed and some actual thought put into it instead of wanking out the next sports game garbage like FIFA XX/NBA 2kx and what not or crappy hiking simulators ala Oblivishit and Skyturd that are only approaching DECENT quality once heavy modding comes onto the stage including massive fan patches because Bethshit is so incompetent that they vomit out crappy janky garbage running on ancient graphics and physics engine but thanks to their idiotic fans they can do almost whatever they want and they still lap it up like the braindead retards that they are. Amazes me how such large portions of fans miss the obious signs on the wall and only when complete and utter garbage like Derpout 76 or Warcraft 3 Remaster comes out they finally realize just how crappy their oh so beloved studio was for almost a decade.
All I can tell you, do better, games these days cost a lot of money compared to 20 years ago, if I am forced to pay 60+ and more Euros I can damn well expect a quality product and not something that is half a movie and the other half so brain dead retarded that I have to try HARD to actually fail.
How come that apart from graphics games have declined on almost every front? RPG mechanics? Gameplay? Pfff. Automated handholding so insulting that I loath anything coming from the so called "AAA" industry with very few exceptions.
Oh and consoles are fucking cancer that make everything worse by the way with terrible exploitative buisness models and hardware that is already outdated half a year after it is released.
To me the current generation of game developers by and large is creatively bankrupt especially anything "AAA" related like EA/Activision/Ubisoft/Bethturd/etc.

 

[Tyranicon]

How come that apart from graphics games have declined on almost every front? RPG mechanics? Gameplay? Pfff. Automated handholding so insulting that I loath anything coming from the so called "AAA" industry with very few exceptions.

I already said why.

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre.

there's hardly motivation for talented devs to tackle a niche that relays on an abundance of work, low financial gain, and low audience numbers.

For those who lack reading comprehension like this is goddamn reddit or something: THERE'S NO MONEY IN MAKING CRPGS.

The only people who make crpgs are people who want to, full stop.

 

[Darkzone]

Every actor is playing always himself, because simply told a system does always makes a statement about itself. And for this reason every character is a bit different if played by other actor even if this is the same role in the same play. Therefore i a tee addict plays a deranged alcoholic he projects his perception and knowledge about a deranged alcoholic.

Actor is not playing himself, actor adds his own experience or personal traits to a given character, just like a every chief prepares a dish with a little touch of his own style. Some actors can hardly remove their persona, some can immerse themselves into a character, especially users of method acting.

Our persona is the role that we always play and since it is a part of us this results that we play us, when we play the persona. (Think why a persona exists and how it is chosen.) Therefore most actors play the same role over and over again.

And talking about LARPing, there is a stable definition of this phenomena used by RPG players and particularly users of this site, so why come up with a new one?

Spread, aim accuracy (erratic weapon movement) or reloading speed can be made to depend on the values and classes of player controlled characters. But does it make a RPG or not ?

Weapon handling and behaviour dependent on character skill is one of the characteristic traits of a RPG, but not the single and defining one. You just reversed the premise: "because most RPG games have weapon handling determined by the character skill means that every game that has weapon handling determined by the character skill is a RPG." This is simply wrong.

There is only one definion of LARPing and it is in the word (live action role playing), but most users use is wrong as you did. And if you would have read and understood my last post towards you about logic then you would see that live action is the attribute in conjunction with role playing. This subset is part of the role playing set and therefore LARPing is always role playing, but not all role playing is larping.
What i put forward (problema) is a question: Is this a necessary attribute of an RPG? The answer is no. That means that its absence does not divide it from the set of RPG and neither its presence make it to an RPG.

So aimbots make an FPS to an FP-RPG.

Aimbot is governed by the character skill? You trying to nitpick, but I already have stated a good example of RPG mechanics in a FPS games: Deus Ex. No matter how good you are at shooters, using weapon with low according skill is pain. Player skill here is negated or enhanced by the character skill.

What i try to show you is the working of your definition of an RPG. Aimbots as an example solve the problem that you have addressed while not making a FPS to a FP-ARPG. But there could be other mechanism (player character based) that would do it, while still not making a FPS to a FP-ARPG.

PER increases Explosives, Lock Pick and Energy Weapon. AG increases Action Points (VATS), Small Guns and Sneak.

Weapon skills and Action Points used only in VATS. They barely affect player accuracy or movement in a realtime mode.
And why should I fight Reaver with early weapons in a closed room? The hell it has to do with my "0 skill run" proposal? There's no stat or skill requirements in F3. Take Plasma, minigun, kite, use good armour, heal, use mines, ghoul mask (kek). Character progression in F3 is mostly HP bloat and equipment based; equipment based progression is common to many genres.

So if you play without VATS then it is a FPS and with VATS then it is a RPG?
You needed skills for the perks and skill checks. And while Strength gave you Meele Damage, the Skill Unarmed Combat gave you Unarmed damage. If you criticise the game for the possibility of a 0 skill run then it is fine with me, but that does not deprive it of the RPG Attribute. Also wouldn't you get Level Ups (more HPs) on the way to the end? I don't remember this but i think that there were many situations where combat was required and you had to solve some quests ( gaining XPs) to get to the end at the Water Purification thing.
I used VATS, because of the Paralyzing Palm. So i played a Fallout 3 RPG, while you a Fallout 3 FPS?

 

[Karellen]

No one can agree on which ones are good examples of the genre

I'd be surprised if the majority opinion (on the codex) wasn't Fallout.

On the Codex, that's a common (though not universal) view, sure. However, Fallout is a game that represents the problem really well - a game that is not so much good as it is great, a game that is truly more than the sum of its parts. There is almost no element or game mechanic in Fallout that is, at face value, particularly well made, but that doesn't matter because Fallout is a really short and rather easy game, and the game's exceptional art direction and atmosphere and its quirky ambition are enough to sustain the game: the terrible area design, barebones combat, inconsistently realized non-combat mechanics and uneven reactivity don't matter because the game doesn't particularly dwell on those things, and the game ends before they start to grate. However, because Fallout is like that, there's very little wisdom for future developers to learn from it, and unsurprisingly, other highly rat CRPGs are very different from Fallout.

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre.

CRPGS are a troubled genre specifically for the reasons that the codex "don't care about." Specifically, sales, media feedback and marketing reach.

Sure we don't care about those things because they don't matter to us, the player. But they matter to devs, and there's hardly motivation for talented devs to tackle a niche that relays on an abundance of work, low financial gain, and low audience numbers.

CRPGs are very labour-intensive games to make, sure, but while one could very well blame market pressures for the lack of ambition in mainstream titles, that doesn't entirely explain how games like Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera or Wasteland 2 turned out the way they did. None of them lacked for ambition, and I think it's much too easy to blame "selling out" for their problems, when, if anything, it's the opposite: the developers felt compelled to make games of considerable complexity and size, and they didn't fail due to lack of effort or even resources, but because fully featured CRPGs are simply very hard to make. On the other hand, I would say that the best CRPGs to come out of Kickstarter are Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall, Banner Saga and FTL, all smaller budget games with tight, manageable scopes, clarity of purpose and restrained ambition. Of course, one could make a very good case that they don't have sufficient CRPG credentials to even be CRPGs, but that's kind of my point; who cares whether they adhere to genre archetypes, when they end up being better games than the ones that did?

 

[Ol' Willy]

Aimbots as an example solve the problem that you have addressed while not making a FPS to a FP-ARPG.

Interaction should be indirect and governed by the character skill. If interaction is direct, character skill should be the decisive factor. What's so hard with this definition? What the hell has aimbot to do with it?

So if you play without VATS then it is a FPS and with VATS then it is a RPG?

It's kinda tiresome when you start creating sentences and imply that I uttered them. No, VATS in F3 is entirely optional and can be ignored, and no, it's not an RPG in VATS since no one but the player has the ability to use VATS. It's more like a superpower.

I will explain the workings of "0 skills" run better: you level up, get new equipment, everything as usual, but with using some hack-engine or console command to reset your skills to 0 at start and at every level.
That's it, just playing it like a shooter with no skill system at all.

 

[Curratum]

How come that apart from graphics games have declined on almost every front? RPG mechanics? Gameplay? Pfff. Automated handholding so insulting that I loath anything coming from the so called "AAA" industry with very few exceptions.

I already said why.

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre.

there's hardly motivation for talented devs to tackle a niche that relays on an abundance of work, low financial gain, and low audience numbers.

For those who lack reading comprehension like this is goddamn reddit or something: THERE'S NO MONEY IN MAKING CRPGS.

The only people who make crpgs are people who want to, full stop.

There's no money in making autistic shit that the codex enjoys. Games like W3 and DoS on the other hand made a lot of money for their makers and still are.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

For those who lack reading comprehension like this is goddamn reddit or something: THERE'S NO MONEY IN MAKING CRPGS.

The only people who make crpgs are people who want to, full stop.

While there is truth in this to some degree, it's not 100%. Occasionally, the stars align, and a good RPG also makes decent money. Maybe not Fortnite or League of Legends money, but enough to be quite profitable. Like Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls, etc.

 

[Darkzone]

Aimbots as an example solve the problem that you have addressed while not making a FPS to a FP-ARPG.

Interaction should be indirect and governed by the character skill. If interaction is direct, character skill should be the decisive factor. What's so hard with this definition? What the hell has aimbot to do with it?

Aimbot takes away the direct aspect of the players agency like other mechanisms and i have chosen this deliberately so that you can recognise that this aspect alone doesn't make a RPG or discard it on this basis.
And if there would be a player character player mechanism that would reduce the weapon spread (from the same weapon) from Game Level to Game Level this would also not make it an RPG. Or an AutoAim option based or Intelligent Ammunition based on character values ((hidden or explicite) and variable) or etc... It still would not make it a RPG.

So if you play without VATS then it is a FPS and with VATS then it is a RPG?

It's kinda tiresome when you start creating sentences and imply that I uttered them. No, VATS in F3 is entirely optional and can be ignored, and no, it's not an RPG in VATS since no one but the player has the ability to use VATS. It's more like a superpower.

I ask questions, based on your propositions. You propose a indirect action that result is based on the player character values as a homemark of RPGs: ("Interaction should be indirect and governed by the character skill. If interaction is direct, character skill should be the decisive factor."). Ok VATS does this especially with melee weapon and unarmed damage. And VATS was mostly a hindernance, because the adversaries were still moving during VATS execution. But together with the Paralyzing Palm it solved my Feral Ghoul Reaver problem. And Unarmed damage is already covered by "If interaction is direct, character skill should be the decisive factor" even without VATS. So stop moving the goal post and disprove my statement or acknowledge your mistake.
The adversaries in Fallout 1 and 2 had no Perks, so is this also a superpower? Or SPECIAL or even Skills?

I will explain the workings of "0 skills" run better: you level up, get new equipment, everything as usual, but with using some hack-engine or console command to reset your skills to 0 at start and at every level.
That's it, just playing it like a shooter with no skill system at all.

But with Level Ups and changing HPs, but you could reset them also.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The RPG genre is defined as a collection of elements related to exploration, combat, and character progression/customization. Any definition of RPG that excludes exploration and combat is missing the point entirely. In practice, any CRPG gives greater weight to certain elements and lesser weight to others, but we can still recognize how close any putative CRPG is to the archetypal RPG versus any other genre of computer games.

 

[Grauken]

tabletop roleplaying games are utterly irrelevant to CRPGs today

Only if you play popamoles

I see, out of real arguments are you

 

[Crispy]

a good RPG... Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls, etc.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

a good RPG... Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls, etc.

I think you are looking for this thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/codex-member-pictures-gallery-no-longer-on-page-1.32721/page-888

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

There's no money in making autistic shit that the codex enjoys. Games like W3 and DoS on the other hand made a lot of money for their makers and still are.

I wouldn't say that's true. The writing, freedom, and player choice that the Codex loves so much about Fallout would absolutely make money today; that shit is what people love about Witcher 2 & 3 so much. You'd just have to make it not look like shit to have some kind of mass appeal. Hell, I'd guess if you actually had all the text descriptions of the Fallout games as actual visual things, like growing extra toes because of radiation, or being able to punch someone so hard their eye popped out (as well as having death animations as good as the original) that something you could sell in a trailer pretty easily.

 

[CaffeineConquistador]

Jesus, Lilura, chug a Red Bull last week?

 

[Cat Dude]

For those who lack reading comprehension like this is goddamn reddit or something: THERE'S NO MONEY IN MAKING CRPGS.

The only people who make crpgs are people who want to, full stop.

While there is truth in this to some degree, it's not 100%. Occasionally, the stars align, and a good RPG also makes decent money. Maybe not Fortnite or League of Legends money, but enough to be quite profitable. Like Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls, etc.

None of your examples is Crpg.

 

[Cat Dude]

How come that apart from graphics games have declined on almost every front? RPG mechanics? Gameplay? Pfff. Automated handholding so insulting that I loath anything coming from the so called "AAA" industry with very few exceptions.

I already said why.

Honestly, I believe that CRPGs are a troubled genre.

there's hardly motivation for talented devs to tackle a niche that relays on an abundance of work, low financial gain, and low audience numbers.

For those who lack reading comprehension like this is goddamn reddit or something: THERE'S NO MONEY IN MAKING CRPGS.

The only people who make crpgs are people who want to, full stop.

People who love old ass incline rpg like Lilura are probably 20 among 10 million gamers.

 

[Lilura]

People who love old ass maximum incline rpg like Lilura are probably 20 among 10 million gamers.

A rare quality, yes. A great and rare quality. Separation from masses is everything in commentary; to distinguish oneself and to compete and excel.

It's why I'm better than you.

 

[luj1]

RPGs developed from pen and paper systems, where the focus has always been on player choice and player-driven gameplay.

RPGs were born when people began giving stories to figurines in wargaming. Storytelling games aren't RPGs, combat is vital.

 

[Lilura]

Now, I'm all about X-COM.

Oh this is gonna be rich.

Why, Storyfag? You do realize I know as much about X-COM as I do about JA2, don't you?

I've already posted a write-up on its tactics, and I won't stop until I'm first-ranked in a second god-tier game.

Lilura is vengeful...

 

[Lilura]

RPGs were born when people began giving stories to figurines in wargaming. Storytelling games aren't RPGs, combat is vital.

"RPGs" wandered off from their wargaming roots and got lost in the woods. They never should have been called "RPGs" in the first place (they weren't originally).

"RPG" invites every form of decline imaginable. It's an inclusive genre and I'm exclusive/elite by nature. The genre can never satisfy me... it is arbitrary and cannot be defined.

 

[Sykar]

How come that apart from graphics games have declined on almost every front? RPG mechanics? Gameplay? Pfff. Automated handholding so insulting that I loath anything coming from the so called "AAA" industry with very few exceptions.

I already said why.

And it is still utter bullshit regardless how much you want to double down.
How come rpgs like Underrail or Pathfinder have reasonable success for the limited amount of money and developer resources, despite Pathfinder having a rocky start due to a rushed release? Simple, both games are reasonably difficult and do not hand hold you like a brain dead mongo plus the story is not heads on pants retarded. These are the three major gripes people have here about most "AAA" games we criticize, terrible story, kindergarten difficulty and dumbed down to the extreme. There is NO excuse for that.

Summa summarum, stop treating your hardcore audience like retards and we will gladly pay instead of pirating your shit only to uninstall after 5 minutes in disgust having confirmed how terrible your shit really is.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

RPGs developed from pen and paper systems, where the focus has always been on player choice and player-driven gameplay.

RPGs were born when people began giving stories to figurines in wargaming. Storytelling games aren't RPGs, combat is vital.

So you're saying that "wargaming" and "RPG" aren't the same thing?