Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

[Latro]

If Skyrim is our defining RPG then the genre is at its lowest point.

 

[Abu Antar]

Jagged Alliance 2 is a tactical game, and Deus Ex is an immersive sim, which leaves Fallout.

 

[Sweeper]

Dark Souls and Bloodborne

JRPGs don't count, even if they're westernized.

The Witcher 3

Barely an RPG, certainly not a CRPG.

Cyberpunk 2077, Pillars of Eternity and Torment, Skyrim

Come on bro.
You wanna see a real CRPG?
Let me show ya

Spoiler

Lets settle this once and for all, there's a shit ton of RPGs out there of all kinds, but only CRPGs are actually good.

 

[Thac0]

It's not a bad defintion, i would probably add something like "player agency" (the player can do whatever they want, initiate combat whenever they want or kill any npc and use any tool at their disposal etc.....) which would make Disco Elysium much less of an RPG; either way it's still much better then "HURR DURR!!! RPG=COMBAT".

I don't truly get where that disqualifies Disco, since you can pick which "dungeons" do to and which sidequests to resolve in any order there aswell. Or do you mean it closer to "multiple possible solutions for an encounter"? That would knock Disco pretty hard since all you can do is talk to people and absolve skill checks. As a sideeffect it would drive Deus Ex rpg coefficient into absolute overdrive.

 

[Darkzone]

What is an RPG? The favourite RPG Codex question. But the answer is simple. RPG is a Role-Playing Game, danke schön, Captain Obvious. But what is a Role-Playing?

Spoiler

A lot of people confuse Roleplaying and LARPing. Like, "I play a good character, so I tend to do good thing and don't lie to people". That's LARPing, my friends. You can LARP like this in any given game. Even in Doom. Like, "My Doomguy was raised on farm, where his father taught him how to shoot with his old Remington. Because of this I tend to use shotguns most of the time. And, being a farmboy, my Doomguy dislikes Energy weapons.". Entirely possible.

Roleplaying presumes indirect interaction of player with the gameworld through the medium of player character. That is, games with direct interaction have a hard time being proper RPGs: it's not your character, it's you and your skill. It's you who controls movement and aiming directly in any given FPS, so it's your fault and lack of skill on your side if you miss or fail to dodge the incoming attack. The character in any game with direct control is your "puppet", totally depending on your skill. In RPG, it's your character who aims and shoots, and any miss is lack of skill on your character's side. That's why isometric perspective with indirect controls is the best medium for a RPG game. Though, FPS and third-person games where skills affects your controls to a greater degree could be described as RPGs (see Deus Ex). Also, now you can see why minigames have no place in RPGs: they test player skill, not the character's. While games with direct control put player at the position of "doer", games with indirect controls put player the level above - at the position of "choicer".

That's roleplaying. The columns, on which the roleplaying lies are:

1) Player character as indirect medium between the player and gameworld.
2) Outcome depends more on character skills and less on player' skill. Player chooses, character does.
3) There should be a lot of such interactions, obviously.
4) And choice, after all. Otherwise, it would be "Predetermined character playing game".

Everything else falls into these categories. You have dialogue: lines, that your character can come up with. Maybe you, player, know something, but you can say it because your character doesn't know this. Interactions with objects: maybe you, player, know how to fix three-phased electrical motors, but your character doesn't have Repair skill and thus fails. Etc.

And elephant in the room: what about combat? Thing is, combat just suits roleplaying games well. Combat is fun. Combat translates to indirect controls well. Combat has high replay value. Combat allows for a lot of choices. Game without combat could be a proper RPG, but, I reckon, it takes an exorbitant amount of skill to make it equal to RPG with combat in aforementioned criteria. There is still no combatless RPG equal to the best RPGs with combat.

And JRPGs. While they have some of the aforementioned "principles", they totally disregard some others or downplay them. Games like Dark Souls downplay points #1 and #2, isometric JRPGs are light on #3 and #4. Thus they are "RPG-mongrels" at best.

Fagout 3 is not RPG at all: it is light on all four points.

Larping is short for Live Action Role Playing. It is not stupid per se what you have written, but it is false and therefore stupid. Role playing term is derived from theater plays training, which is also intrinsic in Braunstein games which is one source besides Chainmail for DnD.

Further to add:
1) There is always knowledge (metadata and etc..) that the player has that the player character doesn't have.
2) But even with this metric a FPS can be a RPG since even weapon spread can depend on the player character abilities. And you shoot a lot that is obviously a lot of interaction and in some games you choose whom to shoot.

So yes by your own metric Fallout 3 - 4, the witcher series and CP77 is a RPG, because the player character values (armor, health, dmg per second and etc) determine if the character can beat a deathclaw or not.
If you make up some kind of algorithms you got to check for true positives, false positives, true negatives and false negatives.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's not a bad defintion, i would probably add something like "player agency" (the player can do whatever they want, initiate combat whenever they want or kill any npc and use any tool at their disposal etc.....) which would make Disco Elysium much less of an RPG; either way it's still much better then "HURR DURR!!! RPG=COMBAT".

I don't truly get where that disqualifies Disco, since you can pick which "dungeons" do to and which sidequests to resolve in any order there aswell. Or do you mean it closer to "multiple possible solutions for an encounter"? That would knock Disco pretty hard since all you can do is talk to people and absolve skill checks. As a sideeffect it would drive Deus Ex rpg coefficient into absolute overdrive.

I think he means not being able to randomly murder people

 

[rusty_shackleford]

That is like saying that RPGs are dominated by Bethesda. I do not think that this is the level of the discussion here.

Not at all. Talking about football, 5% of monocled individuals play Football Manager, 15% of dissidents play PES and 80% are all in for a new FIFA every year. I guess it's even worse for NBA, NHL and other major sports.

What does soccer have to do with football?

 

[barghwata]

I don't truly get where that disqualifies Disco, since you can pick which "dungeons" do to and which sidequests to resolve in any order there aswell. Or do you mean it closer to "multiple possible solutions for an encounter"? That would knock Disco pretty hard since all you can do is talk to people and absolve skill checks. As a sideeffect it would drive Deus Ex rpg coefficient into absolute overdrive.

No no, i mean RPGs.... ideally should allow the player the option to approach a situation in any way they want, whereas in Disco Elysium for example combat is something that you just can't initiate and only exists in certain scripted situations set by the story, not to say that combat is the most important thing about RPGs, but simply that it should always be an option that is on the table for the player, even if it's not a a particulary good or useful option.

As for Deus ex, yes that would make it more of an RPG, but it doesn't even have a character creation system only a progression one, therefore it's much less of an RPG.

 

[Thac0]

I think he means not being able to randomly murder people

No no, i mean RPGs.... ideally should allow the player the option to approach a situation in any way they want, whereas in Disco Elysium for example combat is something that you just can't initiate and only exists in certain scripted situations set by the story, not to say that combat is the most important thing about RPGs, but simply that it should always be an option that is on the table for the player, even if it's not a a particulary good or useful option.

 

[Viata]

You wanna see a real CRPG?

Let me show ya:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/230070/The_Age_of_Decadence/
Look at the bad reviews.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Role playing term is derived from theater plays training

You see my point, china, why do you disagree then? Indeed, I was thinking about theater while writing this. When an actor plays a role, he interacts with his colleagues and spectators through the medium of that role; he's not projecting himself (some do, but let's leave it aside for now). If you play a deranged alcoholic you should act as deranged alcoholic, even if you are a teetotaler in a real life.

LARPing, though, given the CRPGs, is playing a role for yourself, in your head, not recognized by the game.

1) There is always knowledge (metadata and etc..) that the player has that the player character doesn't have.
2) But even with this metric a FPS can be a RPG since even weapon spread can depend on the player character abilities. And you shoot a lot that is obviously a lot of interaction and in some games you choose whom to shoot.

1) I mentioned that. Did you read my post at all?
2) Weapon spread usually hardcoded in the game files and not dependent on the character skill. If it is dependent, then I say "half-true", like in Deus Ex' case. Character skill does affect accuracy there, and you can change that skill.
And no, shooting people in a FPS is not an "indirect interaction". You move, you aim with your mouse, you press LMB - it's your hand-to-eye coordination, your reaction, not of your character. You make decisions and you execute them, instead of divulging the "doing" part to your character.

So yes by your own metric Fallout 3 - 4, the witcher series and CP77 is a RPG, because the player character values (armor, health, dmg per second and etc) determine if the character can beat a deathclaw or not.

OK, let's look at typical "Player vs Deathclaw" fight in Fagout 3. I, the player, control movement and aiming myself, directly. Stats don't matter: PER doesn't give me more viewing distance; AG doesn't make me shoot and aim faster or dodge the incoming attacks; gun skill doesn't affect my accuracy and reload speed. It's mostly about mine, the player's, skill, not the skill of the character. Fuck, I would like to do the run of Fagout 3 with 0 in every skill just to prove my point, but I don't want to reinstall this shit.

 

[Tyranicon]

For devs, RPGs mean the greatest amount of work for the least amount of financial compensation.

There, I just solved why nobody but indies with passion boners work on real RPGs anymore.

 

[Curratum]

* Jagged Alliance 2
* Fallout
* Deus Ex

I noticed you misspelled Witcher 3, Baldur's Gate 2 and Dark Souls 2, so I thought I should correct you.

 

[Farewell into the night]

Have a lovely day to all of you!

 

[Ol' Willy]

What does soccer have to do with football?

Oh, you mean Gridiron: the rugby wannabe with guys pumped up on steroids with a shitton of protective gear? No, thanks.

 

[Ol' Willy]

It's not a bad defintion, i would probably add something like "player agency" (the player can do whatever they want, initiate combat whenever they want or kill any npc and use any tool at their disposal etc.....) which would make Disco Elysium much less of an RPG; either way it's still much better then "HURR DURR!!! RPG=COMBAT".

It falls under the points #2 and #3: having a lot of possible interactions, which are dependent on the character skill. If you want to kill someone - try it, see if your character succeeds. If you have some tools, try to use them, if your character is able to do so. Games with no "player agency" fail at point #3.

 

[Comte]

Rpg's are for kids maybe its time to leave Neverland Lilura or at least your parents basement.

 

[Raghar]

There are only three RPGs that can reasonably be put into a top 10 all-time GAMES list without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. They are:

* Jagged Alliance 2

Not RPG.

* Fallout

Hated for child killing in multiple countries and you forgot on FO2.

* Deus Ex

Not RPG. Also shit graphic.

 

[Grauken]

What is an RPG? The favourite RPG Codex question. But the answer is simple. RPG is a Role-Playing Game, danke schön, Captain Obvious. But what is a Role-Playing?

A lot of people confuse Roleplaying and LARPing. Like, "I play a good character, so I tend to do good thing and don't lie to people". That's LARPing, my friends. You can LARP like this in any given game. Even in Doom. Like, "My Doomguy was raised on farm, where his father taught him how to shoot with his old Remington. Because of this I tend to use shotguns most of the time. And, being a farmboy, my Doomguy dislikes Energy weapons.". Entirely possible.

Roleplaying presumes indirect interaction of player with the gameworld through the medium of player character. That is, games with direct interaction have a hard time being proper RPGs: it's not your character, it's you and your skill. It's you who controls movement and aiming directly in any given FPS, so it's your fault and lack of skill on your side if you miss or fail to dodge the incoming attack. The character in any game with direct control is your "puppet", totally depending on your skill. In RPG, it's your character who aims and shoots, and any miss is lack of skill on your character's side. That's why isometric perspective with indirect controls is the best medium for a RPG game. Though, FPS and third-person games where skills affects your controls to a greater degree could be described as RPGs (see Deus Ex). Also, now you can see why minigames have no place in RPGs: they test player skill, not the character's. While games with direct control put player at the position of "doer", games with indirect controls put player the level above - at the position of "choicer".

That's roleplaying. The columns, on which the roleplaying lies are:

1) Player character as indirect medium between the player and gameworld.
2) Outcome depends more on character skills and less on player' skill. Player chooses, character does.
3) There should be a lot of such interactions, obviously.
4) And choice, after all. Otherwise, it would be "Predetermined character playing game".

Everything else falls into these categories. You have dialogue: lines, that your character can come up with. Maybe you, player, know something, but you can say it because your character doesn't know this. Interactions with objects: maybe you, player, know how to fix three-phased electrical motors, but your character doesn't have Repair skill and thus fails. Etc.

And elephant in the room: what about combat? Thing is, combat just suits roleplaying games well. Combat is fun. Combat translates to indirect controls well. Combat has high replay value. Combat allows for a lot of choices. Game without combat could be a proper RPG, but, I reckon, it takes an exorbitant amount of skill to make it equal to RPG with combat in aforementioned criteria. There is still no combatless RPG equal to the best RPGs with combat.

And JRPGs. While they have some of the aforementioned "principles", they totally disregard some others or downplay them. Games like Dark Souls downplay points #1 and #2, isometric JRPGs are light on #3 and #4. Thus they are "RPG-mongrels" at best.

Fagout 3 is not RPG at all: it is light on all four points.

Wrong, a game is an RPG if it traces its game mechanics back to Wizardry or Ultima or Rogue

 

[Ol' Willy]

Wrong, a game is an RPG if it traces its game mechanics back to Wizardry or Ultima or Rogue

"RPG" term comes from tabletop roleplaying games, and all my four points are applicable and true to tabletop RPGs.

 

[Viata]

Your 2nd point, about player's skill, would make real time first person rpgs(like Dungeon Master) not rpg.

 

[Grauken]

Wrong, a game is an RPG if it traces its game mechanics back to Wizardry or Ultima or Rogue

"RPG" term comes from tabletop roleplaying games, and all my four points are applicable and true to tabletop RPGs.

tabletop roleplaying games are utterly irrelevant to CRPGs today

 

[Butter]

Wrong, a game is an RPG if it traces its game mechanics back to Wizardry or Ultima or Rogue

"RPG" term comes from tabletop roleplaying games, and all my four points are applicable and true to tabletop RPGs.

Character skill vs player skill is necessarily a gradient. You can't eliminate player skill from the equation without removing the interactive component entirely. The player knowing what spells to cast and what enemies to focus is a form of skill after all. Being able to act in real time or aim your weapon manually doesn't mean character stats and weapon skills aren't involved.

 

[what am i doing]

For devs, RPGs mean the greatest amount of work for the least amount of financial compensation.

The work : profit ratio is even worse for RTS
Even stealth isn't as dead as RTS.

 

[jackofshadows]

The title is immensely divergent with its content. I was expecting something at least remotely serious, some merits, anything (to think of what gaming experience one should have to make such comparisons at all). But instead it's just another praise for JA2, basically. Great game, indisputably. Not an RPG in my (quite loose) definition book though.