Van-d-all
Erudite
Incubation also had those enemies which were almost completely resistant to damage except from the back and levels that placed them on narrow pathways making them very puzzle like. Still a fun game though.
This definitely doesn't stop people from building very puzzle-like scenarios on Steel Panthers.For a turn based wargame with a simulationist approach, I can recommend winSPWW2 and winSPMBT.
This definitely doesn't stop people from building very puzzle-like scenarios on Steel Panthers.For a turn based wargame with a simulationist approach, I can recommend winSPWW2 and winSPMBT.
It is discouraging that so many devs are following the Meier Doctrine that you cannot trust the accuracy percentages you see in games anymore. It would be much healthier if misses translated into miss protection in a way that wasn't hidden from the player.
I think comparing Incubation: Time is Running Out (1997) with Chaos Gate (1998) might offer some insight in puzzle vs tactics question.
While both are squad based tactics games with sci-fi theme from 90s with campaigns with fixed missions (in Chaos Gate you can grind xp in random battles).
In both games you have persistent soldiers that gather XP etc.
Typical level in Incubation is tight maze and gameplay typically centers around managing overwatch fire so that enemies don't get to swarm your squad to death before you've done your objective.
Whereas Chaos Gate offers lot's of straight brawls where huge (for squad based tactics game) forces just slug it out.
For Fuck's Sake, Do you people even eat a cake?
This thread illustrate very well what game Codexers like to think tactical: aka bad ones. It's not a false declaration when we say Codexers are bad tactical gamers.
When people like me speak on tactical encounters and tactical games, we mean:
Jagged Alliance 2 (okay, some did remember to say it here)
Fallout Tactics (zero)
Icewind Dale 2 (zero)
UFO Aftershock (zero)
UFO Afterlight (zero)
UFO Extraterrestrial (okay, not so great, but it can satiate your tactical need for a time) (zero)
Silent Storm, Silent Storm Sentinels (zero)
Hammer Sickle (zero)
Do you see them getting mentioned here? No? Do you even know what tactical encounters are?
This is like asking mountain people what ocean is.
Those are tactical RPGs.
People in this thread have been mostly using tactical squad games and larger military sims/wargames as examples.
There's a massive difference between the games you mentioned, and games like Graviteam Tactics, Total War, Steel Panthers, Panzer General, John Tiller wargames, etc etc. Both feature tactical combat but they're fundamentally different genres.
The starter purchaseable ones are, they only cost money, a resource which quickly becomes plentiful by the time they actually start dying regularly.iggy bin worthy opinion, tanks are by far not lowcostlow-cost purchaseable tanks
In Fire Emblem six through eleven a 20% hit chance = 8% true hit chance and a 90% = 98% because of player expectation.while many games implement RNG just awfully , using systems that skew chances in favor of player, to meet their expectations, instead of simply making the spread of outcomes more reasonable.
Won't help.The real path to better RNG is teaching probability to kids like we teach basic arithmetic so people stop being so retarded.
That's just seriously counterproductive. Why skew the math, if you can just have a completely reasonable "same target' bonus which simply increases hit chance. Many games do this already. I know you mean something similar, but it's just the mechanics fault of not representing the reality well enough, not the RNG's...Missing a 70% shot three times in a row is totally possible, but incredibly frustrating, no matter if you understand the math or not (which, again, isn't that hard).
Honestly, I'm all in favor of skewing the results - if it is done fairly, so not only in favor of the player, but also to their detriment.
That would only tackle the problem if the bonus could go up to 100%.That's just seriously counterproductive. Why skew the math, if you can just have a completely reasonable "same target' bonus which simply increases hit chance. Many games do this already. I know you mean something similar, but it's just the mechanics fault of not representing the reality well enough, not the RNG's...Missing a 70% shot three times in a row is totally possible, but incredibly frustrating, no matter if you understand the math or not (which, again, isn't that hard).
Honestly, I'm all in favor of skewing the results - if it is done fairly, so not only in favor of the player, but also to their detriment.
Your solution would have the same optimal strategy, it would just be hidden from players. “Why do I feel like I’m significantly more likely to hit when attacking the same target?”you'd basically tell players to always focus on the same target and make that the only logical way to play.
Uhm... no?Your solution would have the same optimal strategy, it would just be hidden from players. “Why do I feel like I’m significantly more likely to hit when attacking the same target?”
In harder games with deadly combat at least, when you are subjected to some extremely unlucky streak, the change in scenario is the game over screen. Not much you can react to there.That’s the core issue I have with number skewing though—tactical thinking is about reacting to (unexpected or expected) changes in the scenario. Adapting to situations like that is a big part of what makes tactical combat fun for me—not a cozy feeling of probabilities lining up with my expectations.
I'll show you the math AND the skewing. And then you can disable it if it offends youI prefer systems with either total transparency or zero transparency. If you show me the math, show me the math. If you care about feels “wah wah i missed with 70% 3 times and it feels bad”, just do all the math behind the scenes.
That's also true.The problem is when the die roll result is a binary pass/fail - the more extreme the difference between these two, the more frustration you get (which breeds other unwanted stuff like save scumming).
A possible solution - more fluidity between the pass/fail states.
That’s the mindset I’m talking about—why do you deserve to win if your strategy rests on hitting 3+ of 6 hits with a 50% chance on each? Fudging the numbers just means your “strategy” (aka, hope you hit some 50%s) is being catered to, instead of you finding some better strategy that doesn’t require so much luck.Fairly easy battle turned into party-wipe by your guys missing 6 50%+ chances in a row, while (naturally) the enemies (still alive as you didn't kill anyone) all score hits on similar chances
I see you've never played Battle BrothersOtherwise find ways to reduce volatility. Reposition your guys, bring more archers, focus fire different targets, make different strategy choices (I mean in terms of build and equipment setup, etc)—whatever it is.
Um ugh, just no. If you still miss, such is life. The bonus usually applies for given turn. For the sake of active pause (Brigade E5) it could be extended to target not having moved. If someone should really want to take it to the next level it's still possible to simply apply "same target" and "changing conditions" as separate modifiers and apply both. That said, nothing should ever go above 95% IMO. With odds like that, consecutive misses become drastically improbable, but granting a 100% just because of frustration is way to gamified for my taste. And very abusable at that.That would only tackle the problem if the bonus could go up to 100%.
Think about it: 70% hit chance, miss. Same target, now 80%, miss again. Wtf. Same target, now 90%, miss again... Unlikely, yes, but the goal of the skewing is to prevent frustration like that entirely.
If you made that bonus so significant that 100% would be reached extremely fast, you'd basically tell players to always focus on the same target and make that the only logical way to play.
Additionally, it would introduce new problems: What if the target moved in-between turns? What if other conditions changed? Why would you still get a bonus if lots of conditions changed - and if you don't get a bonus anymore, you're back to square one with the original problem.
This. Firstly it should go BOTCH > MISS > GRAZE > HIT > CRIT, secondly, Gaussian probability.A possible solution - more fluidity between the pass/fail states.
Another possible solution - more checks, making individual pass/fails matter less.
Some games (eg. Tharsis) just emphasize on their replayability aspect, and as such make the RNG prone to bad luck on purpose. BB is one of them, possibly to a fault, given how long a single campaign can be. Personally I'd even like that part, having to deal with causalities, if it wasn't for the impending doom counter which makes loosing brothers more and more punishing. Sadly, the start again vs. single run length dissonance often becomes obvious only after the game is made. Sunless Sea devs even admitted they regretted it afterwards.This also forces you to play extremely defensively - one of my biggest criticisms of BB - as it is the only way to mitigate at least some bad luck.
Practically a certainty, because there's an effectively infinite number of enemies, so it doesn't matter how many times it doesn't happen, while it only has to happen once to trash your game.Also I said that you miss all of those, while all the enemies hit. I don't think I need to explain how unlikely that is.
This is not actually true. Anything which symmetrically tilts the odds in favor of both sides benefits enemies far more than the player, because there are way more enemies than players. If players get bumped to 100% chance to hit, this is nice but not a gamechanger. If enemies get the same thing, all levels become extremely lethal as it is no longer possible to utilize any defenses to not be hit, so you will just exchange kills at a highly unfavorable rate because you are always outnumbered until you are dead.After all, the benefit of fair skewing (as in, the enemy gets the same treatment) is that it doesn't really change the balance of the game in anyone's favor - and therefore disabling it doesn't, either.
Skewing doesn't suddenly make enemies more deadly than they make the player. Maybe in theory, but definitely not in practice.This is not actually true. Anything which symmetrically tilts the odds in favor of both sides benefits enemies far more than the player, because there are way more enemies than players. If players get bumped to 100% chance to hit, this is nice but not a gamechanger. If enemies get the same thing, all levels become extremely lethal as it is no longer possible to utilize any defenses to not be hit, so you will just exchange kills at a highly unfavorable rate because you are always outnumbered until you are dead.After all, the benefit of fair skewing (as in, the enemy gets the same treatment) is that it doesn't really change the balance of the game in anyone's favor - and therefore disabling it doesn't, either.