4X The Unsurpassed Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri thread

[kyrub]

Well, you lose a base for any kind of meaningful development (you do not want to develop a crippled one), and you can't really rehome too much units to it anyway, unless you are using crawlers. Which are broken by themselves, or so I believe and try to argue for in this very same thread

It would be sensible to have a crawler per base limit. That for me fixes the issue (bar these cheap trick-feeding SP). For instance, AI already has an inner 2 crawler per base limit. It never builds the third one. I cannot see why the player cannot be limitted in the same way. Maybe the developpers forgot to put it there?

It would be a solution, yes.
I did not know you could actually code that, though. I assumed you could only fix/improve what is already in place.

Well, we have to see if we can do it. This is a very suitable place in the code, I have to say.

I suppose it could help with air units and ships. but I am afraid nothing could be done for land units. You don't know which one of them will create pacifist drones, as they don't do that while inside your own borders.

Actually, as far as the PS base has minerals, it will include even the land units. The trick is that we change the home base exactly at the moment when the program says, hey, this is a pacifist drone unit! And we say, no, it is a unit from a PS base.

 

[Nevill]

So it would be rehoming on the fly, without actually sending units there? Makes sense.

There might be some shenanigans involved when the base gets captured or PSphere gets destroyed, but those can be ironed out by rehoming units to other PSphere bases if the AI has those. Still would be a better solution than what we have.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

I just want to say, with minimal interference in this convesation (I am not qualified for it), that this exchange is clearly the birth of something beautifully inclined, and for you to please continue. The penultimate SMAC(X) is coming, men. I, for one, am glad for my small contribution by creating this thread.

This thread is clearly Unsurpassed, and its posters the most monocled.

kyrub I am going to use the reserved posts at the start of the thread to put links to certain materials, like mods, maps, etc. Can I link to your patch?
Also, anyone remembers what is needed for patches/compatbility for SMAC(X)? I forgot, derp. Some stuff seems to be ammalgamated - I don't remember if the 2000/XP patch included the last patch, for example. And there might be newer stuff for the newer windowses.

 

[Absinthe]

Optional = 200% work on 200% of space you have to find in the code. Ask Yitzi (ac2 forums) about making things optional, he is a true master at that. All I can do is a reevaluation of the fonction, maybe there is a middle solution that will work even with minerals reduced. I have my doubts but we will see.

What about using DLL injection?

I have looked at Punishment sphere code today and one thing springs to my mind.
What if the AI uses the PS + rehoming units? I dislike the tactics and never use it, personnally, since it feels like an exploit, too easy to do. But if we are at a stage to consider extra favourable rules for the AI, it's probably better to give it a regular, albeit cheesy tactics. And then it's player's choice, if he uses the rehoming as well.

It feels like an exploit to me too, since it circumvents the purpose of Support. It seems to turn the meta into one where actually using Support is bad, which in turn probably nerfs Believers and Spartans with their Power value.

 

[Nevill]

Also, anyone remembers what is needed for patches/compatbility for SMAC(X)?

If you get your game on GOG, probably nothing.

There are two tools that one may find particularly useful, Codicil and Iniswap (for SMAX).

Codicil is not available publicly, though I can't imagine why. It is a tool for MP game moderator that allows to change passwords and swap players with AIs and vice versa. It could be used to remove a player that has gone missing (or rather, turn control to AI), or to add one to an ongoing game. It requires all passwords to work, though.

There is IPXwrapper tool that allows to play the game on LAN via DirectPlay (which got deprecated on Win7). I use it to play games by TCP/IP over Hamachi in simultaneous turns mode to get a fast start - the game can later be switched to pure PBEM.

I can't think of anything else you would need to run the game.

 

[Johannes]

It feels like an exploit to me too, since it circumvents the purpose of Support. It seems to turn the meta into one where actually using Support is bad, which in turn probably nerfs Believers and Spartans with their Power value.

It doesn't have much to do with Support, you still gotta pay for them in a PSphere base just the same. It's a Police rating issue.

 

[Absinthe]

Good point. Still that circumvents the primary drawback of running Free Market and removes the pressure to build Psych buildings.

I think this would be more acceptable if Punishment Sphere gave some kind of limit on the amount of rehoming you could do.

 

[kyrub]

I just want to say, with minimal interference in this convesation (I am not qualified for it), that this exchange is clearly the birth of something beautifully inclined, and for you to please continue. The penultimate SMAC(X) is coming, men. I, for one, am glad for my small contribution by creating this thread.

This thread is getting a bit ouf of hands, to be honest, it creates a bit too much expectations. Improving the AI takes time and repeated attemps as I have learned the hard way. It's one step forward, two steps back, most of the time. And rehoming idea is fancy and will not make into the first version of the patch, which I hope, is coming soon.
(Once the patch is done, you may certainly link it in the post on first page.)

 

[mastroego]

No worries, I say just deal with the most glaring issues (if you can).
It's an old game, giving it a new life is already extraordinary, also at some point I'm fine with the AI just getting some bonuses to be more challenging.

 

[Nevill]

By the way, played the game with the current version of the patch, and I have to say that the AI picks SE choices much more intelligently than it does in SMAX.

Just porting the existing patch would already be a huge improvement.

And squashing that nasty bug with losing your minerals for the turn when retooling - it is slowly driving me crazy.

Also, I've noticed the AI terraforming the land up to get to the jungle that otherwise was two tiles across the ocean. Was it something you added, or was it always in the code? It would help AIs that find themselves stranded on an island to have more land available.

 

[kyrub]

And squashing that nasty bug with losing your minerals for the turn when retooling - it is slowly driving me crazy.

Hmm, what is that?

Also, I've noticed the AI terraforming the land up to get to the jungle that otherwise was two tiles across the ocean. Was it something you added, or was it always in the code? It would help AIs that find themselves stranded on an island to have more land available.

It tries to raise land when on a small island. That is vanilla, it's beautiful. There may be less of raise land, if my new attempt to promote boreholes and condensers succeeds, by the way.

 

[Nevill]

Hmm, what is that?

Usually when you retool production, the first 10 minerals are free, then you only get half of the accumulated minerals to apply to the new item. Have 20/30 minerals on a Colony Pod, retool to a former, you'll get a 15/20 ratio.

Also, if you reconsider and switch back, nothing happens, you still get 20/30 on CP.

In your patch you lose your mineral income for the current turn when retooling. So if your base earns 5 minerals per turn, in the above scenario you will get 10/20 on a former. That applies even when you have under 10 minerals accumulated. So if you earn 3 minerals and have 7/20 on a Former, and you switch to a scout to have it out ASAP, you will only get 4/10 on a scout, meaning it won't be there on your next turn.

There is no way to regain the minerals back. If you misclick and change production - no minerals for the base this turn, even if you switch back. You can imagine why this can be frustrating.

However, the penalty does not apply if the base in question finished production this turn. So if it built, say, a scout this turn, and has 5/10 minerals on the next one, it can retool these 5 minerals just fine. It is only on the next turn that you will feel the effects of the bug.

It was fixed in Yitzi's patch, so it does not apply to SMAX.

It tries to raise land when on a small island.

This happens so rarely I don't even remember when I saw it last.

 

[kyrub]

In your patch you lose your mineral income for the current turn when retooling. So if your base earns 5 minerals per turn, in the above scenario you will get 10/20 on a former. That applies even when you have under 10 minerals accumulated. So if you earn 3 minerals and have 7/20 on a Former, and you switch to a scout to have it out ASAP, you will only get 4/10 on a scout, meaning it won't be there on your next turn.

Ah well, I think it has something to do with my old attempt to fix the Stockpile energy bug. Since Yitzi fixed that correctly, I happily left that out of my current reworking. So, my bet, this thing is gone.


From the code: Factions that tend to dislike buildings are... Believers, Spartans, Pirates, Cult, Caretakers. Not many strong AIs in there, eh?
My guess is the effect of the power inclination is a bit too strong. Yang is redeemed by his wealth focus.

This happens so rarely I don't even remember when I saw it last.

Really? It's a regular thing in my spectacle games (when I resign and watch the AIs play). Maybe it just happens early in the game so you don't catch it.

 

[Nevill]

So, my bet, this thing is gone.

In Yitzi's, yes. Not in your latest SMAC patch.

Did you mean the first version of the patch as 'the first patch for SMAX'?

From the code: Factions that tend to dislike buildings are... Believers

I often see them building various structures (energy banks, recycling tanks and other early facilities). Of course when they are at war, they forget about those and churn out hordes of units, but that is a perfectly normal behavior, even though they go over the top. I think she has Builder as one of her priorities, no? Will have to check.

Overall, Believing AI is perhaps the second strongest after the Hive one, and the two will often contest for the world leadership. The third one would probably be Gaians, but they prosper during peace times and fold very easily when pressured, having no horde of units to rely on, like Yang/Miriam do.

Spartans, Pirates, Cult, Caretakers - yes, those are weak. Sparta might be able to manage if she can make it to Elite units, though, but building is definitely her weakest side. The Power civic is justified with her for +3 MORALE. Add a command center on top and you get instant Elites.

I do not mind Power all that much, though, it helps the AI with their SUPPORT problem. It would only be a problem if the AIs would refuse to run anything else.

 

[kyrub]

Did you mean the first version of the patch as 'the first patch for SMAX'?

First version is the coming version of the SMAX AI patch. Sorry for confusing expressions.


Right now the general factors for units vs builduings are:

4x Morgan, Angels, Drones
5x Yang, Deirdre, Lal, Univ, Cyborg, Usurpers
8x Believers, Spartans, Pirates, Cult, Caretakers

As you see, the last group has a double tendency to produce the units as the first one. From the last group, only the Believers can cope (there are ton of other factors in play, of course.) - Now, there is no other way then to try and test changing these factors of the third group a bit and see what happens. Also, let's bear in mind that the AI aggressivity (focus from alpha.txt) has in the coming patch a stronger effect on building more army and less non-military buildings as well ( to make this into BUILDER / MIXED / FIGHT). So, from that last group, Pirates and Spartans will build slightly more buildings, others will remain focuses on army (hopefully) which seems fine.

I'll try the factors
4,5x Morgan, Angels, Drones
5,4x Hive, Deirdre, Lal, Univ, Cyborg, Usurpers
7x Believers, Spartans, Pirates, Cult, Caretakers
..and we'll see.

 

[laclongquan]

I dont find that Gaians use many worms. Shouldnt they use a horde of worms and explore the fungal patches (thus zero mineral maintainance). And priority on building IoD?
Worms are a great equalizer for the ignorant treehuggers~ And a great early game investment.

 

[Nim]

Worms only really work against an incompetent AI, everyone else is just going to use scout patrols/rovers to kill them, coming out ahead mineral wise.

 

[Absinthe]

They should work against Free Marketers too, since the low PLANET rating should give them -30% psi combat. For Deirdre it's typically a given that you use mindworms to stop Free Market from overtaking you.

- Brood pit, any good for any faction?

Spartans and any non-Gaian with Ascetic Virtues. Reaching +3 POLICE means you get an extra drone suppressed per unit and you can have 3 units police a base. For Gaians it makes running Police State an option, since they have +2 EFFICIENCY to cover the penalty and it kicks their bases into +3 POLICE +2 SUPPORT, and Gaians are a native faction.

What are the major new SP projects for AI to pursue? Any SP specifically important to any factions?

These are vanilla SPs but since they're native factions, Gaians and Cha-Dawn should both consider getting the Dream Twister. Cha-Dawn should probably also consider getting The Ascetic Virtues since with his free Brood Pits it kicks him into +3 POLICE in all his bases, assuming he isn't running Free Market, which he shouldn't because his -1 ECON and inability to run Wealth ruins it.

Also, you haven't answered my question about using DLL injection.

 

[Nim]

Those -30% are only on offense tho. If you are in FM you either throw cheap scout patrols at the worms and still come out ahead, go empath for +50% or simply defend, trance + sensor + base gives you at least even odds on again way cheaper units. Am I missing something ?

 

[Absinthe]

Would it be too much of a dick move to make the mind worms just go around destroying improvements and attacking non-military (ie formers, supply crawlers, colony pods, probe teams?) and weakened units?

 

[laclongquan]

Does worm spawn rate seems to be a bit slow? Even with hyperactivity period, they dont spawn that much.

Can you offer some form of increased spawn rate?

 

[kyrub]

Those -30% are only on offense tho. If you are in FM you either throw cheap scout patrols at the worms and still come out ahead, go empath for +50% or simply defend, trance + sensor + base gives you at least even odds on again way cheaper units. Am I missing something ?

I still think that natives with Neural Amplifier could be a threat or annoyance at least to a player with FM. I guess that the defense bonus is more important than +50% attack, from AI perspective, since it negates the obvious PSI attack advantage human can always use. But it's purely theoretical for me, I never played an MP game and the single player does not offer the experience.

Spartans and any non-Gaian with Ascetic Virtues. Reaching +3 POLICE means you get an extra drone suppressed per unit and you can have 3 units police a base. For Gaians it makes running Police State an option, since they have +2 EFFICIENCY to cover the penalty and it kicks their bases into +3 POLICE +2 SUPPORT, and Gaians are a native faction.

These are vanilla SPs but since they're native factions, Gaians and Cha-Dawn should both consider getting the Dream Twister. Cha-Dawn should probably also consider getting The Ascetic Virtues since with his free Brood Pits it kicks him into +3 POLICE in all his bases, assuming he isn't running Free Market, which he shouldn't because his -1 ECON and inability to run Wealth ruins it.

Thanks, good thoughts! I will have to go back to Brood Pit, then. Ascetic virtues are being dealt at the moment, so it helps.

Also, you haven't answered my question about using DLL injection.

I haven't since I don't use them. I learned my trade on DOS games and I am too old and busy in RL to change my habits. Let's enjoy what can be done with this.

Can you offer some form of increased spawn rate?

Questions and requests for options and moddable content can / should be aimed at YITZI, who is stationed on http://alphacentauri2.info/ forums, he is a kind and willing guy and a quicker coder than me, by the way. And in this thread http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=16785.0 you may nominate your content directly. Hope that helps. We are working separately, he does the moddable part, I care for AI improvement.

 

[Nevill]

I prefer to lower Empath Song bonus to +25%.

It is still noticeable, but no longer a WIN button, and it requires additional investment from the Marketer. Myself, I think making worms cost 30 minerals is enough of the solution. Their mission is a hit and run tactics on fungus where they can't be easily followed, and they perform adequately with this in mind.

 

[Absinthe]

Thanks, good thoughts! I will have to go back to Brood Pit, then. Ascetic virtues are being dealt at the moment, so it helps.

A quick correction to that, by the way. For Yang Brood Pits and Ascetic Virtues are an either/or deal. They're guaranteed to be running Police State after all. Speaking of which, Yang should probably prioritize Ascetic Virtues for the +3 POLICE too.

I haven't since I don't use them. I learned my trade on DOS games and I am too old and busy in RL to change my habits. Let's enjoy what can be done with this.

I can definitely sympathize with that. I just brought it up since you seemed concerned about fitting code into small addressing space.

Also, SMAX AI seems to like Pulse Armor too much for its own good. Pulse 3 Armor is completely outperformed by Silksteel Armor which is actually cheaper and Pulse 8 Armor merely matches the cheaper Antimatter Plate at best. I think these armors should be used carefully as upgrades in a tight spot, not as a primary armor, but the AI is not that clever and wastes a lot of production on them.

 

[Nevill]

BROzil,

I think it would be nice to start putting some information in one of your RESERVED posts. Like... I don't know, upgrade/research cost formulas, bureacracy drones formulas and rules (many players don't know what are those), unit/bases subversion formula, and other information for autists out there.

Today I tried to find what affects which techs are available for research, and which are not. Sometimes you can't research techs even when you have the pre-requisites. What gives?

Turns out the rules for research availability are kind of complex. However, there is an excel spreadsheet readily available:
http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/...l-Automation?p=2440919&viewfull=1#post2440919

I find it quite helpful to have in competitive PBEMs. This less known stuff would be damn nice to have somewhere in one place.

I can probably try to find whatever threads there are available on those topics if you will attach them/link to them in the second or third post of this thread.