The Valve and Steam Platform Discussion Thread

[IHaveHugeNick]

I've seen a lot of reviews were people just vent about dumbest, pointless, trivial shit, vaguely or not at all related to the game.

Box got damaged in shipping? Negative review.
Cat ate my headphones? Negative review.
Junior QA had a political opinion on Twitter? Negative review (lots of those)
My favorite recently was BT4 review were some dude complained that he can't play the game because he didn't receive his key.

Obviously you can still try and engage with these people, but small indie dev probably does this all by himself. I can relate how it can push him over the edge dealing with unspeakable idiocy on daily basis.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Obviously you can still try and engage with these people, but small indie dev probably does this all by himself. I can relate how it can push him over the edge dealing with unspeakable idiocy on daily basis.

Who else should do it? A "community manager" who isn't a programmer or designer and thus can't help people or understand poorly described potential problems?

Remember when a Dead State's community manager flagged a negative review and the shitstorm that followed?

 

[Binky]

"I have great ideas, I work hard. Where's the fame and fortune? I want it, I've earned it, I DESERVE it. Curse you, vile and cruel Steam! May you choke on the shattered pieces of my broken dream!"

 

[Binky]

I wonder how these people that are so bothered by the negative reviews would react if they had to deal with their customers in person. People who hate your product on Steam can't punch you in the face, or wreck your store, or scream at you red-faced while spittle flies in all directions,...

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Obviously you can still try and engage with these people, but small indie dev probably does this all by himself. I can relate how it can push him over the edge dealing with unspeakable idiocy on daily basis.

Who else should do it? A "community manager" who isn't a programmer or designer and thus can't help people or understand poorly described potential problems?

Remember when a Dead State's community manager flagged a negative review and the shitstorm that followed?

Obviously flagging is a nuclear option and you need to be vary of the fallout. But there's definitely situations where it might be worth it.

Also, I've seen you guys interact with the AoD audience on Steam forums and I would say that you generally have an easier crowd to work with. While they're prickly, bitter and cynical as per RPG tradition, they're often from the old internet, been around the forums, trolled the Usenet, and aren't as notoriously thin-skinned and self-entitled.

Some bloke who makes some flowery, artsy, rainbowy indie games about unicorns and fairies might have different experiences than you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also, I've seen you guys interact with the AoD audience on Steam forums and I would say that you generally have an easier crowd to work with. While they're prickly, bitter and cynical as per RPG tradition, they're often from the old internet, been around the forums, trolled the Usenet, and aren't as notoriously thin-skinned and self-entitled.

Not everyone who buys an indie RPG on Steam is an old-school player who remembers the Usenet. Quite a few folks list Skyrim and Dragon Age as their RPG 'old school' credentials ("Old-fashioned and boring mechanics even for those like me who have been dueling for years at TES V AND FALLOUT !!").

Some bloke who makes some flowery, artsy, rainbowy indie games about unicorns and fairies might have different experiences than you.

If you're really passionate about flowery, artsy, rainbowy games, you should be able to talk to your audience about flowery and rainbowy things, no?

 

[Goral]

AoD sold 140k copies. I can take it for granted and expect the colony ship game to sell at least 250k but I won't. I will operate on the assumption that that it can easily fail (despite being a better game in my opinion) or sell half of what AoD sold because the market might be over-saturated (I don't think so but we have to be ready for it) and will work twice as hard to promote the game instead of expecting Steam to do it for me.

A sensible approach, although something tells me that deep down you really are expecting that 250k number, which isn't that unreasonable if you'll get at least as much coverage in the media as you did with Age of Decadence. You really should consider adding these boob implants for females giving +1 charisma :] (or some other odd thing that might be spotted and mentioned about). Things like these get spotted/go viral, just like becoming a porn star in Fallout 2. Maybe it's not the audience you're going for but the more coverage you get the better and the more chances for people to look past such superficial and inane things and focusing on a truly great part.

 

[Jenkem]

“There are people making quality titles that are getting the same level of support as troll games that were made in three days,” Michael Hicks, developer of Pillar, Path of Motus and other indie titles told me. “Then Valve takes a 30 percent cut for doing next to nothing. That’s my main issue with their whole system.”​

if it wasn't for fucking gabe newell this game would be top trending on twitch, I just know it!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Also, I've seen you guys interact with the AoD audience on Steam forums and I would say that you generally have an easier crowd to work with. While they're prickly, bitter and cynical as per RPG tradition, they're often from the old internet, been around the forums, trolled the Usenet, and aren't as notoriously thin-skinned and self-entitled.

Not everyone who buys an indie RPG on Steam is an old-school player who remembers the Usenet. Quite a few folks list Skyrim and Dragon Age as their RPG 'old school' credentials ("Old-fashioned and boring mechanics even for those like me who have been dueling for years at TES V AND FALLOUT !!").

Generally easier crowd to work with.

If you're really passionate about flowery, artsy, rainbowy games, you should be able to talk to your audience about flowery and rainbowy things, no?

Of course, but that's entirely beside the point. It's a different audience consisting of different people and they might be easier or harder to interact with than yours. One Bible salesman can work an area where every door is opened by an old lady who offers him cake. Another Bible salesman can work in an area where every door is opened by a guy with a knife.

Just because you both make games doesn't mean you interact with the same audience.

 

[sullynathan]

So what does it mean then when a big publisher like EA completely pulls away from STEAM? Are they really getting as much profits from Origin as they would if they stayed on STEAM?

 

[Thane Solus]

"game is not in chineze" - refund and negative review (steam page specify the game is only in English) playtime 0.10

Yeahh, steam is great when it comes to reviews...you can review bomb without any effort. Maybe in 5 years, will actually have some a proper review system. I dont care that much, but when i see things like this, the stupidity of some of the users, oh my...

 

[Vault Dweller]

AoD sold 140k copies. I can take it for granted and expect the colony ship game to sell at least 250k but I won't. I will operate on the assumption that that it can easily fail (despite being a better game in my opinion) or sell half of what AoD sold because the market might be over-saturated (I don't think so but we have to be ready for it) and will work twice as hard to promote the game instead of expecting Steam to do it for me.

A sensible approach, although something tells me that deep down you really are expecting that 250k number...

I certainly don't expect to do well and certainly not that well. Not because I'm a humble person like MRY (I'm not) but because expecting a good outcome is always bad for business. You should expect and prepare for the worst.

Logically, selling 250k copies is certainly a possibility, just like selling 50-70k copies is another, equally strong possibility. Sure, AoD did well but there were many different factors there. Half of these factors won't be present in Colony Ship, so it is a coin toss.

Of course, but that's entirely beside the point. It's a different audience consisting of different people and they might be easier or harder to interact with than yours. One Bible salesman can work an area where every door is opened by an old lady who offers him cake. Another Bible salesman can work in an area where every door is opened by a guy with a knife.

Just because you both make games doesn't mean you interact with the same audience.

The product (the Bible) is the same in both cases whereas with games it couldn't be more different. My point was that you should know your audience and if your audience likes flowery, rainbowy games, you should know what these people are like, what kind of features they want, how to talk to them, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Whining aside, the idea of Steam providing devs with a customer support infrastructure of some sort is a good one, no?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Whining aside, the idea of Steam providing devs with a customer support infrastructure of some sort is a good one, no?

What does it mean though?

I'm trying to figure out what more Steam can possibly do (other than permanently featuring AoD on the front page) and I honestly can't think of anything. Assign a permanent babysitter who'd comment on my every step and stop me when I'm about to make a mistake?

Steam is getting more and more automated, which is a good thing because developers can do everything themselves. I can change the name, the prices, run a discount, participate in a sale event, request keys, submit a store page for approval, and do tons of other things without bothering anybody. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Infinitron]

Whining aside, the idea of Steam providing devs with a customer support infrastructure of some sort is a good one, no?

What does it mean though?

I'm trying to figure out what more Steam can possibly do (other than permanently featuring AoD on the front page) and I honestly can't think of anything. Assign a permanent babysitter who'd comment on my every step and stop me when I'm about to make a mistake?

Steam is getting more and more automated, which is a good thing because developers can do everything themselves. I can change the name, the prices, run a discount, participate in a sale event, request keys, submit a store page for approval, and do tons of other things without bothering anybody. Isn't that a good thing?

No, I'm talking about this part of the article:

I can’t tell you how many reviews I’ve got for issues which have nothing to do with the quality of the game. Forgot my password? Negative review. [Blue screen of death]? Negative review. These are things that are clearly support issues.”

Asked to describe what support tools are available to them, a different developer brought up the same issue.

“Well the tools are just the review system,” they said. “There’s no ticket management or way to allocate tasks. Or if there is I don’t know where it is. We try to push people to our Freshdesk support so we can manage there, but that’s tough. I’ve also tried to [private-message] people to fix issues and delve in deeper and that’s just potluck they check them and respond.”

Customer support for the players, not the developers.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, I'm talking about this part of the article:

I can’t tell you how many reviews I’ve got for issues which have nothing to do with the quality of the game. Forgot my password? Negative review. [Blue screen of death]? Negative review. These are things that are clearly support issues.”

Asked to describe what support tools are available to them, a different developer brought up the same issue.

“Well the tools are just the review system,” they said. “There’s no ticket management or way to allocate tasks. Or if there is I don’t know where it is. We try to push people to our Freshdesk support so we can manage there, but that’s tough. I’ve also tried to [private-message] people to fix issues and delve in deeper and that’s just potluck they check them and respond.”

Customer support for the players, not the developers.

It's called a forum?

Not trying to be funny here, but 95% of tech issues people had with the game were posted on our Steam forum. Yes, 5% of issues ended up as negative reviews but not because the customer didn't know what to do about it. Some people are pissed off when they run into issues and then write a negative review to express their frustration. This too is business as usual. Check the recent releases: BT4, Insomnia, Kingmaker - they all were hit pretty hard by negative reviews due to bugs and performance. I read these reviews too to learn what to expect and what kind of issues really bother people.

Edit:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/620713633839971865/
^ here is a 20-page thread where we addressed issues posted by other people.

 

[Infinitron]

It's called a forum?

Sure, something better than that could be nice though.

It's often said that for indies on Steam, Valve is in effect their publisher. Would make sense then for Valve to offer additional services associated with publishing. It could be an optional thing, since AAAs might prefer to funnel people towards their own customer service portals.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's often said that for indies on Steam, Valve is in effect their publisher.

Said by whom? People who don't know what this word means?

Would make sense then for Valve to offer additional services associated with publishing. It could be an optional thing, since AAAs might prefer to funnel people towards their own customer service portals.

It would make everything much worse.

Imagine this situation. You fork over extra 20% (so now you only get half the revenues) but Steam handles marketing and gives you plenty of front page to ensure you that even with a 50/50 split you're still doing better than with a 70/30 split. Scenario A: you'd have to pay 20 points extra to get any exposure from now on. Scenario B: Steam will cherry pick and take the winners like Darkest Dungeon that already sold over a million copies. Neither scenario will benefit developers whose games aren't selling well.

 

[Infinitron]

The sound of that strawman being pounded to death tells me you don't really have a counter-argument to what I said

That's okay, though. I get that you're satisfied with the status quo, but if things change in the future, well, we'll see.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The sound of that strawman being pounded to death tells me you don't really have a counter-argument to what I said

You said that an optional publishing service might be a good idea, without specifying details. There's only one thing that Steam can do to make games perform better and that's exposure. If you have to pay to get exposure, it will fuck up the entire ecosystem.

So far it's you who's dodging my argument.

 

[Infinitron]

I was talking about them providing the publisher-like service of a Steam-integrated customer service portal with tickets and so on. But it would be be staffed and operated by the developer, not by Valve. Just like they provide you with integrated forums right now, where you need to supply the moderating team.

It wouldn't actually be part of a formal publishing arrangement with Valve taking a larger cut of the $$$ (although of course if they were greedy they could do that).

 

[BlackAdderBG]

I was talking about them providing the publisher-like service of a Steam-integrated customer service portal with tickets and so on. But it would be be staffed and operated by the developer, not by Valve. Just like they provide you with integrated forums right now, where you need to supply the moderating team.

It wouldn't actually be part of a formal publishing arrangement with Valve taking a larger cut of the $$$ (although of course if they were greedy they could do that).

Devs can do that now in the forum, there is sub forums made tech support and I have seen some directed straight to them from Discussion. And as I see it, it's better than individual tickets as if the problem is wide you can asses it easier. More people are willing to write in a forum thread already existing instead of submitting tickets.(you can do that as well to the steam support even now).

 

[ScrotumBroth]

A ticketing system where users are required to upload their saved game, PC specs and details of their issues would then put developers on the spot to resolve each ticket manually, instead of posting a link on forums that may or may not work. I guess each method has pros and cons depending on scale of issues reported and amount of staff manning the support.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

A ticketing system where users are required to upload their saved game, PC specs and details of their issues would then put developers on the spot to resolve each ticket manually, instead of posting a link on forums that may or may not work. I guess each method has pros and cons depending on scale of issues reported and amount of staff manning the support.

VD's point is that forum thread have a lot more pros than cons, sentiment I agree with. Tickets I personally used are so rare and only for things outside gameplay related stuff. Searching forums for technical help is faster and better for everything else, just google your problem and there is already forum thread that will help you resolve it, 90% of the time put by users not the devs. Where is the con for the dev in that?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I was talking about them providing the publisher-like service of a customizable integrated customer service portal with tickets and so on. But it would be be staffed and operated by the developer, not by Valve. Just like they provide you with integrated forums right now, where you need to supply the moderating team.

Well, it's not really publishing in any sense of the word, is it? Anyway, it's an interesting feature that would tell other players what kind of tech issues other people are having (which might have a negative effect on sales) but I fail to see how it would solve the problem of negative reviews that aren't really reviews. That's what was really bothering the developers in the article not the lack of some tech support portal. Some people would expect the game work perfectly fine "out of the box" and would be as reluctant to submit tickets and they're reluctant to post on the forums which takes a few seconds as you don't need to register. Other people might open tickets for some silly things and refuse to close them. Etc, etc, etc.

We made fixing tech issues the highest priority, so most issues were solved the same day or within 24 hours, which is why it's never been a problem for us. I assume that it won't be a problem for any developer capable of fixing issues promptly, so which problem are we trying to solve here then?