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Game News The Witcher 3: Blood and Wine Expansion Released

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Milan, Italy
I like how he plays F4, is fine with it, but when the opportunity arises? Regurgitates Codex rule #58573 (because everyone else says so, so why can't he)
Upscaling is not wrong in theory. Can be wrong in implementation, yes, but the gook is hardly the expert on such matters.
My problem with upscaling (or, more appropriately, scaling in any form) is that if you need to alter the level of enemies to match the player (or to duplicate different enemies in different level ranges) maybe you should consider in your core design a system where levels don't matter as much in the first place.
You can build a system where your character has a clear perception of getting stronger and more experienced over time WITHOUT making anything few levels below trivial and few levels above unmanageable.
Horizontal growth rather than vertical (or worse, exponential). Or at very least a more gradual, less pronounced vertical growth.

Same goes for itemization: why have loot scaling and level requirements tied to equipment in a game that can be approached in a non-linear way, when it would be far more simple to remove these requirements and simply not make the equipment increase in power so strongly?
 
Joined
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Messages
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In fairness to Oblivion's target audience many were capable of recognizing shit design when they seen it, and some of the more popular mods were focused on removing level-scaling. Ten year of degeneration later and TW 3's target audience are complaining the mobs aren't level-scaled enough, and some of its more popular mods add in even tighter level-scaling. What a difference a decade makes.
 

Rev

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Feb 13, 2016
Messages
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To be fair, it does absolutely nothing to address the stupidity of the character level design. Even Bethesda learned from this by creating 'leveled zones' where places in northwest Boston wouldn't spawn high level enemies, but as you go further south and east, things got tougher. Logical progression and low level players eventually learn to avoid taking on dangerous places until they're ready, assuming they played in the revamped Survival difficulty. Or, you can even try be creative, take the risk against high level mobs and drop some frag mines, lure a few of them and score a few indirect kills.

But what do we see in Witcher 3? Try that against a skull-rated mob and they'd vaporize you in 2 hits or less. This is a game where you slaughter a lvl 10 Griffin, only to get destroyed by level 28 dwarf thugs in Novigrad because you didn't pay attention to recommended level in the quest log. And now I'm loaded into Heart of Stone at level 33, wondering what content can possibly challenge Geralt at that level after facing down a slew of beasts both lowly like Drowners, common bandits and epic ones, like Katakans, Dragons, and the Wild Hunt warband itself.

Guess what? I went into a sewer below Oxenfurt, and I encountered level 35 drowners.
I slaughtered a random thug in a side quest and got a lvl 35 sword, a pair of gloves and a random armor I want to try on. However, Geralt, the slayer of the Wild Hunt, can't equip it while a thug can. You know, the same Geralt who slaughtered Velen's Crones, and beat a dragon in Witcher 2?

Oh, I also went and quickly redo the sidequest to hunt drunk-slaying Katakan in Oxenfurt. Without the upscaling on, that dude died in two hits. Hooray for fucked up game design. FYI, I don't mind having tougher time against Katakans, because they're lore monsters. But fucking drowners? No fucking way. I refuse to accept to have trouble dealing with a bunch of these trash after the obscene amount of epic encounters I've beat .

You know this game has fucked up design when you gotta turn your brain off for this to not to bother you.
I hope they learned from this but I doubt it, they never really think it's a problem and just added upscaled option so the side content don't turn into a joke for those who rushed thru the primary content. Thanks for adding better tomato sauce, CDPR, but you still have a terrible fried chicken which is half cooked and battered with crispy level mechanics in a fucking game that should've been a great action hack and slash. But it looks good and you won GOTY, so it didn't deserve to be criticized.

image cut
I loved TW3 when it came out, loved its first dlc and now playing the second, but God you're so right about the terrible design of monsters in the game. I just hate it when I have more trouble fighting some fuckin' drowners, who should pose no challenge to an expert monster-slayer such as Geralt, than epic creatures like griffins, archgriffins, leshens and draconids. It contradicts the game lore and is just plain stupid.
And in the two dlcs things have only gotten worse in regard of this: in HoS, after defeating the legendary Wild Hunt, you find yourself against epic beasts such as level 35 boars and spiders (no kidding, though at least they're not in the main questline), and in Blood and Wine I've already lost count of how many level 40 ghouls and drowners I killed exploring Toussaint.
 

Aenra

Guest
My problem with upscaling (or, more appropriately, scaling in any form) is that if you need to alter the level of enemies to match the player (or to duplicate different enemies in different level ranges) maybe you should consider in your core design a system where levels don't matter as much in the first place.

Agreed. But what about RK47, who is so brain-dead he needs halp(!!1!!1) with higher level monsters and level indicators and quest linearity and artificial borders (the stupid yellow dumbfuck)?. Did you notice the complaint? He followed a quest into a higher level mobs area and died. Is crying about it still. Prefers Bethesda's stance. What about the scores of players, Dexers among them, that go /crybaby without levels because "no sense of progreshun"? You have a point and i'm with you, that would be even better*. But hardly a prerequisite.
*never was a fan of levels. Rang, ring and will continue to ring as un-realistic and pointless gating mechanisms.

Upscaling (not plain ole scaling mind you) can be used in more traditional formats without ruining gameplay. As i said, there is theory and then there's implementation.
The theory of "not EVER being capable of raping 80% of the content and trivialising everything you might have missed/failed to notice/skipped" is a valid theory. Trivialisation is lack of a challenge, lack of a challenge is lack of interest or continued dedication.
Now the implementation? Hence my saying dependeth :)

- Bad example:
Any game introducing:
i) bloating
ii) better armor and weapons on top
iii) extra oompf in damage output so as to match the player's
[am purposefully using the worst possible example. See Obloomvion]

- Good example:
Any game introducing:
i) extra moves/behaviours, aka better AI [to a shitty extent, granted, W3 does that]
ii) resistances maybe
iii) tactics and thinking. They "scaled", but by now you've got a skillset that allows you to bypass or avoid, exploit or work with. Hence 'tactics'. The comparison is no longer done in numbers (health, armour, etc [they should never scale proportionally to your own numbers anyway]) but in the difference of potential; aka utilising your -----extra---- skills and the environment so as to overcome them.

I don't know if W3 offers any of that. I do know that reading upscaling and whining on principle alone is a sign of a dumbfuck :)
 
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Lambach

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Belgrade, Removekebabland
Enjoying it quite a bit so far. The thing that's putting me off a tad is the shiny, colorful nature of the region, because I'm an edgelord who prefers the grimdark feel of the war-ravaged Velen and the mass persecutions of Novigrad, but that's a minor nitpick. The most pleasant change compared to the vanilla is the trimming of all the trash mobs and needless fights in the quests. Even side-quests and Witcher contracts seem a bit more fleshed out and better designed. The new enemies are all pretty interesting, with the exception of Spriggans who are just Leshens on steroids, and Archespores which are simply tedious to fight. Also enjoying the enhanced mutations thingy, Aard is even more OP now that it has some ~25% chance to insta-kill.

That said, anyone else a bit disappointed with the Grandmaster gear? It's only marginally more powerful than the Mastercrafted variety and those Set Bonuses blow donkey ass ("you can put up to 3 different oils on your sword simultaneously" - what the fuck for when 99% of the time you fight the same type of enemies at once?) and they're ludicrously expensive to craft. Not that money is much of a problem, I started the expansion with over 40k Crowns on me, but a breastplate which requires 2 Enriched Dimeritium Plates, 4.5k Crowns each, shouldn't be only 10% more powerful than the one that costed me 5-6 times less money to craft.

Hell, I even gave up using the Grandmaster swords. The silver sword I'm using I got as a reward from a certain quest involving a certain lake, and the steel one I just happened to stumble upon. Both of them noticeably stronger than the Grandmaster ones.
 

Carrion

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My problem with upscaling (or, more appropriately, scaling in any form) is that if you need to alter the level of enemies to match the player (or to duplicate different enemies in different level ranges) maybe you should consider in your core design a system where levels don't matter as much in the first place.
You can build a system where your character has a clear perception of getting stronger and more experienced over time WITHOUT making anything few levels below trivial and few levels above unmanageable.
Horizontal growth rather than vertical (or worse, exponential). Or at very least a more gradual, less pronounced vertical growth.

Same goes for itemization: why have loot scaling and level requirements tied to equipment in a game that can be approached in a non-linear way, when it would be far more simple to remove these requirements and simply not make the equipment increase in power so strongly?
Spot on. They should've gone for more horizontal growth, but instead they went for a system where you grow super-fast in power, and it's more or less a hopeless task to make such character development system work in perfect harmony with book lore, the previous games, and common sense, because there are just too many contradicting factors. Geralt is already legendary at the start of the first game (amnesiac, but still), and with each game he just grows more and more in power, kills increasingly powerful monsters and gets his hand on more and more legendary swords and pieces of armor. Drowners, most animals and normal humans (even legendary swordsmen) should pose no problems for him even at the start, and definitely not anymore in the sequels. On the other hand, in gameplay terms that would of course be extremely boring. Geralt is also supposed to be short on coin all the time and do all sorts of shit jobs to make a half-decent living, i.e. regularly go back to slaughtering drowners, nekkers and other old friends, with more powerful monsters being an exception. The problem is to keep these things intact while also maintaining some sense of gameplay challenge, and it's clear that this doesn't sit very well with a steep character power curve.

Level 40 drowners or harbor thugs are the consequence of a system where anything that is several levels below you is a pushover, and replacing those enemies with new, much more powerful monsters would lead to new problems in terms of worldbuilding — speaking of Oblivion, you don't want to have that thing where you run into a fucking minotaur or a lich every time you decide to take a stroll through the forest*. You want to have a gameworld where each location is populated by appropriate monsters faithfully to the lore and which also manages to pose a challenge throughout the game, but if you introduce a system that lets you grow in power at an explosive pace, you'll soon have to make a decision whether you want to have the cake or just eat it.

The main game doesn't really even have areas where level-gating would be necessary, and it seems like some kind of a statement that they made it so visible. It's like they were trying to prove that they were more influenced by Gothic than the last two TES games, but they ended up going so far into one direction that they eventually came out from the other. If they really wanted to lock the player out of a particular area, they could've easily done it through the alchemy system — just introduce enemies that require specific oils or potions to take down. It would've been a nice example of horizontal character growth that also would've been perfectly in line with the lore.

* With expansion packs and sequels such issues seem to inevitably rise even without level-scaling or other such mechanics; see Tribunal for Morrowind with its HP sponge goblins, or BG2 or Throne of Bhaal where every person you see on the street is practically a demigod or at least very powerful.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
To be fair, it's only upscaling. So easier monsters would be harder, but harder ones won't be easier.

To be fair, it does absolutely nothing to address the stupidity of the character level design. Even Bethesda learned from this by creating 'leveled zones' where places in northwest Boston wouldn't spawn high level enemies, but as you go further south and east, things got tougher. Logical progression and low level players eventually learn to avoid taking on dangerous places until they're ready, assuming they played in the revamped Survival difficulty. Or, you can even try be creative, take the risk against high level mobs and drop some frag mines, lure a few of them and score a few indirect kills.

But what do we see in Witcher 3? Try that against a skull-rated mob and they'd vaporize you in 2 hits or less. This is a game where you slaughter a lvl 10 Griffin, only to get destroyed by level 28 dwarf thugs in Novigrad because you didn't pay attention to recommended level in the quest log. And now I'm loaded into Heart of Stone at level 33, wondering what content can possibly challenge Geralt at that level after facing down a slew of beasts both lowly like Drowners, common bandits and epic ones, like Katakans, Dragons, and the Wild Hunt warband itself.

Guess what? I went into a sewer below Oxenfurt, and I encountered level 35 drowners.
I slaughtered a random thug in a side quest and got a lvl 35 sword, a pair of gloves and a random armor I want to try on. However, Geralt, the slayer of the Wild Hunt, can't equip it while a thug can. You know, the same Geralt who slaughtered Velen's Crones, and beat a dragon in Witcher 2?
:what:
WTF? This still is a CRPG forum, right?
A forum dedicated to the very genre where zero to world savior hero stories are the norm and where fighting intimidating early game bosses and then, a few days later, magnitudes more powerful trash mobs is a thing nearly every game expects you to do. So what the fuckidy fuck am I reading?
But this isn't a zero to hero story?
Who the fuck cares, this is a CRPG. So of course it features player character level progression and new challenges and obstacles for every new level you gain, and after a few level gains the first obstacles you overcame at the start of the game pale in comparison to what you have to do now. Basic 101 CRPG design really.
The same monster type might grow more powerful in later areas of the game but that's okay, then at least they don't get too boring. They still become pushovers thanks to better tools in your special ability toolbox.
And you still feel like that legendary dude all the way through because you are the one hunting down monsters while most of the civilians are just sitting there, quivering in fear. So if you don't tryhard to find reasons to hate then this is perfectly serviceable as your typical CRPG progression.
And never ever again mention these broken abominations of Bethestard games as shining examples when it comes to game balance. It makes you look very retarded.

The gameworld of Witcher 3 might have a few high level mobs in the middle of lower level territories (doesn't seem too frequent though) but usually the dangerous areas are the remote ones here too. And the fucking main quest even tells you which level you should have to go to the major areas. As does every single quest. Sure, putting the level requirements in the quest journal might not be the most elegant solution but I don't see a way around it since this is an open world game so if you decide to ignore the main quest and just go hiking then there should always be another, higher obstacle waiting for you. Even on the same map, because then you have a reason to revisit it later and feel the power gap to low level mobs there (and see how awesome Geralt became in the meantime).
And you can't just stop dealing with the rabble and fight bosses exclusively later in the game because now you became that special kind of snowflake, a true hero (TM).
:retarded:
Just like they can't just make all these later trash mobs boring to fight pushovers because why even waste the player's time with that shit then? So of course the guy that managed to beat a level 10 griffin will have problems with level 28 dwarven thugs later. Duh!
Either this fixed enemy level solution here or levelscaling, pick your poison.
Also, even in games with a flatter enemy progression curve (not meaning levels but overall combat power) like Fallout taking a shortcut to the endgame areas and the surrounding wasteland isn't good for your health and you have to game the system aka cheese to be able to do one of these speedruns. So even there you have that 101 carrot on a stick CRPG design principle. There's no avoiding it unless you get rid of character power progression completely.
So again, wtf did I read there?
:rpgcodex:

Other possible solutions like slowing down the char progression (if they even change anything about the low level bosses vs high level trash mobs problem that's pretty much intrinsic to CRPGs) lead to a different problem, no real reward (because your char doesn't make enough progress) for your heroic deeds. Meaning they let all the content outside the mainquest feel superfluous if not for story reasons. Which might already be enough in this game but why not add an additional incentive in form of actually noticeable traditional CRPG char leveling? Doesn't hurt and it's always nice to see the numbers go up.
They even avoided the usual Bethesda mistake of rewarding combat action and chose a limited resource (quests) instead of respawning enemies for the bulk of XP available without grinding.
:incline:

Sure, there might be better ways than DPS inflation and HP sponges, but they chose this traditional approach and unlike Skyrim and FO4 here it works. Because they didn't do the retarded thing to reward every kill (or better successful strike) in combat.
One solution that might have been more elegant is unlocking new areas or in general more content by gaining new abilities that can change your surroundings or increase your ability to traverse them. See Zelda or as it seems Voidspire Tactics. Which reminds me that I definitely have to try that game.


My only real gripe with all this is that combat is too hard to control precisely with all the silly whirling around which is definitely not cool.
And itemization. Itemization is shit.

It's like they were trying to prove that they were more influenced by Gothic than the last two TES games, but they ended up going so far into one direction that they eventually came out from the other. If they really wanted to lock the player out of a particular area, they could've easily done it through the alchemy system — just introduce enemies that require specific oils or potions to take down. It would've been a nice example of horizontal character growth that also would've been perfectly in line with the lore.
The special oils idea is neat and all but it undermines the character system.
They can't make enemies vulnerable to one damage type alone (oils meaning damage type: swords ... and alchemy of course) because that would either force all players to create jack of all trades so they can do well against most enemies or force the designers to make enemies easier so even the wannabe mage that never learned anything about oils except for the basics can beat the ones that are only vulnerable to a sword coated with some special oil.
Also how would that even work? Oil xy being unlocked on level 10 unlocking area z (because now you can kill the monsters there) in return?
Sounds as artificial as the shitty item requirement system. I'm sure I'd hate it.
Or one really tough boss protecting the recipe for that oil so after beating it you now can venture forth to the next area?
So one challenge to unlock each of these enemy types and close to zero power gains after that (because Geralt is already awesome, he can't possibly become more awesome)? Sounds pretty boring and pointless as far as CRPG systems go imo.

And I disagree that they went overboard with the Gothic-like enemy difficulty approach. You can beat enemies 10 levels higher than you here too. You just need mad skills at twitch combat, same like with Gothic.
I just wished controls were as precise as there.
 
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Ninjerk

Arcane
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Jul 10, 2013
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RK47 provides only the finest butthurt. :lol:

The other guys sounds like someone defending communism.
 

Malpercio

Arcane
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Dec 8, 2011
Messages
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I shouldn't have started this (As the exp) immediately after finishing BG2. God, the itemization and encounter design are giving me an aneurysm.


But hey, there is a new chick we can fuck.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
what just happened in one gif:

tumblr_lp5vb9ZovI1qiov0ro1_400.gif
 
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The main game doesn't really even have areas where level-gating would be necessary, and it seems like some kind of a statement that they made it so visible. It's like they were trying to prove that they were more influenced by Gothic than the last two TES games, but they ended up going so far into one direction that they eventually came out from the other. If they really wanted to lock the player out of a particular area, they could've easily done it through the alchemy system — just introduce enemies that require specific oils or potions to take down. It would've been a nice example of horizontal character growth that also would've been perfectly in line with the lore.
I know some (alleged) RPG purists would cry at the "horrors of dumbing down", but honestly I often thought that if they were going for the "action adventure" route and get rid of level progression and stats growth entirely nothing of value would be lost in this game.
Alchemy, itemization and unlockable perks would more than enough to make up for it and IF ANYTHING they would even need to be tune down additionally to not make progression too strong anyway.
That would allow enemies to have a fixed range of dangerousness and play their role across the entire game without needing to be repurposed constantly. Of course, a drowner wouldn't be as threatening by the end of the game as it can be at the beginning, becoming more like a minor annoyance, but that's fine. You'll get your clearly-perceivable increase in power without trivializing everything or breaking world building.


...Anyway, I'm enjoying B&W so far, most of the content seems to be of good quality.
My main gripes are about baffling design flaws that were in the vanilla game as well.
 
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NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
The main game doesn't really even have areas where level-gating would be necessary, and it seems like some kind of a statement that they made it so visible. It's like they were trying to prove that they were more influenced by Gothic than the last two TES games, but they ended up going so far into one direction that they eventually came out from the other. If they really wanted to lock the player out of a particular area, they could've easily done it through the alchemy system — just introduce enemies that require specific oils or potions to take down. It would've been a nice example of horizontal character growth that also would've been perfectly in line with the lore.
I know some (alleged) RPG purists would cry at the "horrors of dumbing down", but honestly I often thought that if they were going for the "action adventure" route and get rid of level progression and stats growth entirely nothing of value would be lost in this game.
Alchemy, itemization and unlockable perks would more than enough to make up for it and IF ANYTHING they would even need to be tune down additionally to not make progression too strong anyway.
That would allow enemies to have a fixed range of dangerousness and play their role across the entire game without needing to be repurposed constantly. Of course, a drowner wouldn't be as threatening by the end of the game as it can be at the beginning, becoming more like a minor annoyance, but that's fine. You'll get your clearly-perceivable increase in power without trivializing everything or breaking world building.
If they really went full akshun adventure style and got rid of levels that might work.
But I think they would have to reduce the open world freedom or risk that players would just ignore the intended order/sequence and find the perks/oils/items they need to kill the late game enemies.
And that would seriously screw things up and sour early game content for these players, especially with late game equipment that would be much more powerful than things you find at the start of the game.
After mastering late game enemies with more elaborate attack patterns the early game ones could also become nothing but boring chores.

So I'd say only let us find the tools needed to deal with late game challenges after we beat that early game boss or solved that middle game riddle that's part of the main quest, making sure that we follow the intended sequence. They still could give a bit of leeway for people who want to game the game of course but it should be made very obvious if you stumble upon something that's not intended for you yet.
 
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ZagorTeNej

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Joined
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Messages
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Also, even in games with a flatter enemy progression curve (not meaning levels but overall combat power) like Fallout taking a shortcut to the endgame areas and the surrounding wasteland isn't good for your health and you have to game the system aka cheese to be able to do one of these speedruns. So even there you have that 101 carrot on a stick CRPG design principle. There's no avoiding it unless you get rid of character power progression completely.

Except the obstacles you meet in Fallout (1 and 2) end game areas fit the game world and lore which is the whole point of the criticism in the first place (gameplay vs setting/world building conflict). If you wander about where you shouldn't be (yet) you'll get beset on by Super Mutants, Deathclaws or Enclave Troopers not level 30 Khan raiders that for whatever stupid reason evolved to be a bigger threat than the former. Even a Diablo system where you fight a more dangerous variant of the same enemy with a different name and slightly different appearance is less lazy than using the "level 30 Sheep" design that needs to fuck off back to MMORPGs where it belongs.
 

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