Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[treborSux]

There was the hidden missed hit reduction stat that sort of affected class changes in Wiz 6 and 7. I don't know if it was enough for most people to notice though, I never really even fully understood how it worked.

 

[TigerKnee]

but then it becomes a bit like the infamous nethack black pudding farming:

"The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming."

I'm more of a Crawl dev stance in this regards: "The optimal method of playing the game should also coincide with being the most fun way to play the game. If your players are self-flagellating for an advantage, then it's a good sign that said mechanic might have issues."

 

[Damned Registrations]

While I'm generally inclined to agree, there reaches a point where it's just not worth it trying to out-think the scummy players. Especially when it backfires and fucks over normal players. Like ADOM and the fact that jackalweres are more dangerous than steel golems because how else can you stop people from farming summoners except to make them all demigods?

Pudding farming is basically something you do if you're trying to break the game so you can do asinine challenges that are realistically impossible like beating the game without ever reading or drinking a potion.

 

[Coriolanus]

but then it becomes a bit like the infamous nethack black pudding farming:

"The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming."

I'm more of a Crawl dev stance in this regards: "The optimal method of playing the game should also coincide with being the most fun way to play the game. If your players are self-flagellating for an advantage, then it's a good sign that said mechanic might have issues."

I can't think of any hard RPG that didn't "reward" some self-flagellation. Crawl has plenty of such, the most obvious one being the Mummy race. Of course, this "self-flagellating" example can be just another dimension of fun to someone who gets off of slowly rising numbers or just a very patient person in general.

What is rewarding for one person (higher score? very risk-averse attitude?) could be entirely pointless to someone else who just wants to beat the game quickly and/or gets off higher risk. To him, this "advantage" of higher numbers would be meaningless. Again, Crawl is a good example: competitions for the fastest completion vs. highest score. Getting back to Wizardry: beating the game (no need to class change) vs. beating it on hard with bosses like the Beast (class changing helps a lot).

 

[TigerKnee]

Crawl has plenty of such, the most obvious one being the Mummy race.

Just so you know, that statement was actually made because of the Mummy changes.

The mummy isn't self-flagellation/scum-encouraging anymore, in the sense the mummy strategy isn't to stay on D1 farming weaklings forever until you reach a good level before descending (the OOD generation for staying too long on 1 level ended that). The devs raised Mummy's stats and focused its playstyle on (ab)using its inherent mutations instead (e.g no hunger = free channeling from Sif for spellcasting)

 

[Stabwound]

I think the simple fact that it's nearly impossible to viably plan out a class-switching scheme for your characters because of random stat gains on levelup shows that they didn't intend for people to abuse it in such a way. Save scumming in this way is the exact same to me as saving before opening a chest and reloading until the trap doesn't go off, or you get the loot you want. If it's fun to you, fine, but it's really borderline cheating.

And for the record, I did reload for stat gains to class-switch around in Wiz 6. Who really cares? As long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter. I certainly wouldn't make my team an omnipotent tean of uber-Ninjas with maximum spell points like some people do, but if you find that fun, go for it.

 

[octavius]

I only used class changing sparingly in Wiz 6. If I should replay it I think I will try with no class changing, or change from base classes immediately. Since mana regeneration is based on starting class, it makes sense to start with Priests, Mages and Alchemists and then change them into Valkyries, Samurais and Ninjas. Having mana regeneration be based on starting class sounds like another questionable design choice to me.

In Wiz 7 OTOH, it's just too frustrating to not do some class changing to get more skill points, since you only get a few points to spend on magic skills per level, so it takes "forever" to be able to cast even rather mundane spells like Cure Poison and Cure Disease. Just one enemy afflicting you with Disease can really screw things up, and there's no easy/cheap way to get rid of it if can't cure it by magic.

 

[treborSux]

I used to try to be slightly ethical with my class changing. For instance, a lot of people will class change to get every character with ninjitsu and kirijutsu and every spell book. To me that's just not even fun. I liked having characters with unique abilities.

 

[treborSux]

I think the simple fact that it's nearly impossible to viably plan out a class-switching scheme for your characters because of random stat gains on levelup shows that they didn't intend for people to abuse it in such a way. Save scumming in this way is the exact same to me as saving before opening a chest and reloading until the trap doesn't go off, or you get the loot you want. If it's fun to you, fine, but it's really borderline cheating.

I don't agree with this only because Wizardry games sometimes make you feel like you're playing against them rather than with them. Wizardry will find a way to get the better of you and it's sadistic, you can't let it win.

Just want to say, I've spent way too many years of my life on the Wizardrys. It's a deep love/hate feeling I have toward these games. No games have ever really affected me the way they did, they're very near and dear to my heart, sometimes to the point of disgust. In some ways I regret ever even playing them, at the same time they're really the only games I ever truly cared about. It's hard to describe. I would spent entire nights awake playing them, totally depressed and blank. I'd spend days and days solving obscure incomprehensible puzzles and then wanting to simultaneously throw up in mouth and cum in my mouth after solving them. Wizardry...my heart flutters.

 

[Lady_Error]

Wizardry 7 is very special to me too. That's why I am happy that we might see another Wizardry 7 come out this year.

 

[Themadcow]

Just finished Wiz 6 (again) last night and the most annoying design flaw for me is still the fact that death carries such a penalty (permanent loss of a stat point on resurrection) that reloading apon a single character death just becomes a habit. In reality, especially with class changing, the penalty isn't that severe... but no-one wants to permanently lose stat points. Despite that, and some of the issues with class changing, it's still the best CRPG experience I've had in my 34 years of gaming.

Doing another run of Wiz 7 with my imported party in the next week with the intention of importing into Wiz 8 when it goes on sale on GoG. Having played the Amiga versions in my youth I never really had the chance to keep a party through all 3 games.

 

[Lady_Error]

Don't forget Sky City and the Ratkin Ruins and Ukpyr.

I also wonder why the concept of competing NPC parties has never really been implemented again.

 

[octavius]

I had this idea, why I like Wizardry VII so much and I think it is the authentic horror atmosphere. It is a long and horrific and uneasy adventure. I think they nailed that really good.

I dunno...I thought Wiz 6 had much more of a traditional "gothic" atmosphere, and a much darker background story with the King seducing/raping the 14 year old servant girl, their offspring being the demon child Rebecca, the bitter S&M queen who was executed and the poor vicar doomed to eternal unlife locked in the tower. Quite creepy stuff.
Wiz 7 felt much lighter to me, with its blend of Science Fiction and traditional fantasy, the silly sorority girls in hover cars and Ratsputin and the rat mafia (they had a funny name that I can't recall).

 

[theSavant]

Wizardry 7 is very special to me too. That's why I am happy that we might see another Wizardry 7 come out this year.

I don't know of any Wizardry 7 remake announced. Please enlighten me.

 

[mondblut]

Then why they make it so that when you switch class, you are reset to level 1?

Because powerleveling is fun.

As opposed to just being promoted to a new class, but keeping the same character level?

Because not powerleveling is not fun. Case in point, wizardry 8.

You will definitely enjoy Grimoire (or would enjoy older versions, anyway). All your stats are reset back to the default values, but you keep the level. That will show them nasty scummers!

 

[octavius]

Then why they make it so that when you switch class, you are reset to level 1?

Because powerleveling is fun.

As opposed to just being promoted to a new class, but keeping the same character level?

Because not powerleveling is not fun. Case in point, wizardry 8.

You will definitely enjoy Grimoire (or would enjoy older versions, anyway). All your stats are reset back to the default values, but you keep the level. That will show them nasty scummers!

Me? I'm neutral. I'm not a 100% purist, but I'm not a blatant power gamer either.
Class changing is fun and adds an extra element of chance (if you don't save scum) and long planning to the game, but grinding so every character gets 100 in all skills is not fun.

I have yet to play Wiz 8 so it will be interesting to see how that game's system play out in practice.

 

[mondblut]

grinding so every character gets 100 in all skills is not fun.

Oh no, it is

I have yet to play Wiz 8 so it will be interesting to see how that game's system play out in practice.

Just like 3e D&D, sans all those synergies that make stacking half a dozen classes together an art. Worse yet, all the nicest features are withheld until highest levels, and the opportunities for grinding are nil, meaning every level you have wasted on an alternate class is wasted forever.

 

[Lady_Error]

Wizardry 7 is very special to me too. That's why I am happy that we might see another Wizardry 7 come out this year.

I don't know of any Wizardry 7 remake announced. Please enlighten me.

It's called Grimoire.

 

[theSavant]

I hoped you wouldn't say that and that maybe some secret indie team had remade Wiz7

 

[Stabwound]

Or, there's a Wiz 7 remake alright:

 

[Lady_Error]

This guy (Demiath) is actually a member here. I guess the Japanese UI makes this difficult.

Also, the JRPG style combat screen in that version is pretty bad for immersion.

 

[mck]

Chewbacca looks fucking sick though.

 

[treborSux]

I had this idea, why I like Wizardry VII so much and I think it is the authentic horror atmosphere. It is a long and horrific and uneasy adventure. I think they nailed that really good.

I dunno...I thought Wiz 6 had much more of a traditional "gothic" atmosphere, and a much darker background story with the King seducing/raping the 14 year old servant girl, their offspring being the demon child Rebecca, the bitter S&M queen who was executed and the poor vicar doomed to eternal unlife locked in the tower. Quite creepy stuff.
Wiz 7 felt much lighter to me, with its blend of Science Fiction and traditional fantasy, the silly sorority girls in hover cars and Ratsputin and the rat mafia

(they had a funny name that I can't recall).

The Razuka

I remember playing the first time and initially getting greeted by a big titty blonde girl in a flying corvette. I thought the whole game was going to be super campy and over the top, I wanted it to. It was the first Wiz that didn't feel completely claustrophobic. Wiz 6 had such a cool story though. I have a hard time paying attention to most games lame nerd plots, Wiz 6 was something else. The best is when you're 12 years old and raid the Queen's closet and find out she was into S&M and shit and throw her bullwhip and bra on your slutty bard.

 

[Lady_Error]

I also liked the names they gave them: Jean-Ette and Dame Ke-Li. Those two games were definitely inspired, the rest of D.W.Bradley's work pretty much sucked. Be it Cybermage, Wizards & Warriors or Dungeon Lords. It almost seems like he gave up now.

 

[theSavant]

Yeah All I see is small indie teams delivering budget titles, while nothing comes from the experienced RPG veterans... The only exception are developers from isometric rpgs (e.g. Project Eternity). But from the 1st person party based rpgs veterans comes nothing.


I want my Wizardy 9 and my Wizards & Warriors 2 !!!


Brenda Romero, D.W. Bradley - Move it! - I'm waiting!