There's no such thing as an Adventure Game "puzzle"!

[free_pepe]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

 

[Maxie]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real

 

[luj1]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

What are you trying to say?

 

[free_pepe]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real

What does that mean??

 

[free_pepe]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

What are you trying to say?

I'm saying that a puzzle requires some sort of thought process to solve, otherwise it's not a puzzle!

If the solution is blatantly obvious, then there's no puzzle to solve!

Or if the solution is random, then there's no puzzle to solve!

Do you agree or not!?

 

[luj1]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

 

[Iucounu]

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!

You mean obvious even to dumb players?

 

[Spukrian]

I'm saying that a puzzle requires some sort of thought process to solve, otherwise it's not a puzzle!

If the solution is blatantly obvious, then there's no puzzle to solve!

Or if the solution is random, then there's no puzzle to solve!

Do you agree or not!?

So basically you're saying that what most people call puzzles in the context of adventure games aren't actually puzzles. Well, technically you're correct, but then what is there discuss about this?

If we shouldn't call them puzzles, what should we call them? Problems? Obstacles?

Disclaimer: I like adventure games but I like puzzle games more.

 

[free_pepe]

What is there to discuss??

......nothing with a bunch of member berries!

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Look a these cute puzzles!

 

[El Pollo Diablo]

unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"

But that's exactly what each and every puzzle is, from the types of puzzles you would find in the IQ tests onwards. It's always some combination of basic logic and understanding the puzzler's intentions.

 

[Pyke]

We call them 'gates/locks' in our design documents, and the solutions we call 'keys'.
Helps in getting a good understanding of how the narrative will flow, and how complex the flows are.

Once we have the gates in place - we know where we need keys. So we can go in and see how the gate can tie into that part of the narrative, and what the key is (usually its an item, piece of information, or action).

I think the idea is to not think of puzzles as individual elements. The puzzle is the WHOLE game.

 

[Alex]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

The simple case is admittedly more an issue of exploring the game and seeing what you have available to you than of figuring something new out. But that is the case with most simple puzzles as well, they are just an issue of understanding the basic logic of the game and applying it through. As an example, consider the Hanoi towers puzzle. Once you understand the basic logic of how you move around the discs, it is obvious how it is solved. Likewise, in an adventure game, if you need something soft to progress and eventually you come to a pillow factory, the answer may be obvious, but you needed to explore the game to see there was a pillow factory in first place, and maybe remember you need something soft to bother entering there.

For the more complicated puzzles, a lot of stuff has been said about adventure games using "moon logic" that lead people to work them out with brute force. This can indeed be very badly done. Random deaths in Sierra games are often mentioned as an example of this. But this can be well done. When this is well done, the answer is not "whatever the whimsy of the programmer wanted to be the answer", but the logic of the setting itself dictating how things should go. Three good examples (don't read if you don't want puzzle spoilers for the games):

1. In Sam & Max, the setting works as a needlessly violent cartoon. In the tunnel of love, you eventually find out there is a fusebox in the middle of the way you need to deactivate to be able to get off the ride. The answer as to how to do it is to be needlessly violent to Max and hit it with him.
2. In Spellcasting 101 (an incredible game sadly plagued by sexual immorality), you eventually get to lost soles island. The island is a giant pun joke. Everyone has been turned into a pun on their own names. To restore these people, you need to figure out, from the objects you find around, what their real name is. In the very first room, there is a great fire. Using the Kabul spell, you can turn it back into Mayor Blaise, if you can figure out his name. The logic here is constant, but sometimes infuriating. Especially if you aren't all that knowledgeable about english names.
3. In Police Quest, a lot of the puzzles are just about following police protocol strictly. It is a bit silly, admittedly, and more than a bit arbitrary. But nevertheless, it is part of the charm of the game and an interesting way of integrating that stuff into a game.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Maybe making sense of the original post ITT was the real puzzle all along?

 

[Tweed]

Yes, there is such a thing as an adventure game puzzle.

Sierra adventure game puzzle: Did you forget to pick up something four hours ago? Hope you have a save ready.
Did you give somebody the WRONG item? Hope you have a save ready.
Did you use violence to solve a problem? Hope you have a save ready.
What? You didn't realize you were on the clock for this one? Hope you have a save ready.
Look, you knew you were suppose to get that fruit to save your father, not my fault you forgot to pick it up before you killed Lolotte.
Of course you were supposed to throw the pie at the yeti, why wouldn't you throw the pie at the yeti?
It's called COPY PROTECTION and if you hadn't STOLEN the game then you wouldn't be falling to your death.

 

[almondblight]

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN FALLOUT​

 

[Verylittlefishes]

(The title is provocative, and not entirely true, as there are different kinds of puzzles in adventure games which are real puzzles, but...)

The solution to standard adventure game "puzzles" is either so obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention) that it can't be called a puzzle!
(ie; "Go find something soft and fluffy to turn the broom handle into a mop"..... ok so I'm looking for something soft and fluffy, Easy as! ......it's potentially a bit of a game for my eyes to play. but it's not a puzzle!)

....Or the answer is not obvious (to those who've been paying proper attention), because it relies on Moon Logic, in which case the only way to beat it without picking up a walkthrough involves randomly clicking on things until something works (that's not problem solving, that's just randomly clicking on things!) and/or studying the developer's mind (that's psychology!).......

In either case these aren't puzzles! (unless you want to call understanding the developer's mind "a puzzle"...)

How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real

Sometimes you scare me.

 

[octavius]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

< You are on a a plain. From here you can go South, West, North.
< What do you do?

Go North

< You go North.
< You fall down a cliff.
< You die.
< Game Over

 

[Alex]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

< You are on a a plain. From here you can go South, West, North.
< What do you do?

Go North

< You go North.
< You fall down a cliff.
< You die.
< Game Over

I think text adventures used to be more moderate about this stuff than point and click Sierra games, though. Also, in a text adventure, if you've been keeping good notes, it is possible to get back to where you were by just typing the commands quickly in a few minutes, unlike the point and click interface.

 

[Maxie]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

< You are on a a plain. From here you can go South, West, North.
< What do you do?

Go North

< You go North.
< You fall down a cliff.
< You die.
< Game Over

I think text adventures used to be more moderate about this stuff than point and click Sierra games, though. Also, in a text adventure, if you've been keeping good notes, it is possible to get back to where you were by just typing the commands quickly in a few minutes, unlike the point and click interface.

You're arguing to mapping dead ends and thus metagaming. If it's the only way to progress, it's artificial difficulty (time invested), and gay. There's a reason why "Why Adventure Games Suck" (1989) is a seminal piece.

 

[Alex]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

< You are on a a plain. From here you can go South, West, North.
< What do you do?

Go North

< You go North.
< You fall down a cliff.
< You die.
< Game Over

I think text adventures used to be more moderate about this stuff than point and click Sierra games, though. Also, in a text adventure, if you've been keeping good notes, it is possible to get back to where you were by just typing the commands quickly in a few minutes, unlike the point and click interface.

You're arguing to mapping dead ends and thus metagaming. If it's the only way to progress, it's artificial difficulty (time invested), and gay. There's a reason why "Why Adventure Games Suck" (1989) is a seminal piece.

I don't mind it at all, even if I would prefer to solve the game only using clues provided by the puzzle rather than the medium.

But if the only options you as a designer can come up are:
a) A more or less straightforward game without much challenge at all to the puzzles.
b) A game with lots of interesting and difficult puzzles that rely on meta-knowledge at times.

I would say take b every time.

 

[Maxie]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

< You are on a a plain. From here you can go South, West, North.
< What do you do?

Go North

< You go North.
< You fall down a cliff.
< You die.
< Game Over

I think text adventures used to be more moderate about this stuff than point and click Sierra games, though. Also, in a text adventure, if you've been keeping good notes, it is possible to get back to where you were by just typing the commands quickly in a few minutes, unlike the point and click interface.

You're arguing to mapping dead ends and thus metagaming. If it's the only way to progress, it's artificial difficulty (time invested), and gay. There's a reason why "Why Adventure Games Suck" (1989) is a seminal piece.

I don't mind it at all, even if I would prefer to solve the game only using clues provided by the puzzle rather than the medium.

But if the only options you as a designer can come up are:
a) A more or less straightforward game without much challenge at all to the puzzles.
b) A game with lots of interesting and difficult puzzles that rely on meta-knowledge at times.

I would say take b every time.

A game over screen isn't a difficult puzzle that has you rely on meta-knowledge. It's you making notes where not to step into grue.

 

[Alex]

There's more to adventure games than just puzzles though

< You are on a a plain. From here you can go South, West, North.
< What do you do?

Go North

< You go North.
< You fall down a cliff.
< You die.
< Game Over

I think text adventures used to be more moderate about this stuff than point and click Sierra games, though. Also, in a text adventure, if you've been keeping good notes, it is possible to get back to where you were by just typing the commands quickly in a few minutes, unlike the point and click interface.

You're arguing to mapping dead ends and thus metagaming. If it's the only way to progress, it's artificial difficulty (time invested), and gay. There's a reason why "Why Adventure Games Suck" (1989) is a seminal piece.

I don't mind it at all, even if I would prefer to solve the game only using clues provided by the puzzle rather than the medium.

But if the only options you as a designer can come up are:
a) A more or less straightforward game without much challenge at all to the puzzles.
b) A game with lots of interesting and difficult puzzles that rely on meta-knowledge at times.

I would say take b every time.

A game over screen isn't a difficult puzzle that has you rely on meta-knowledge. It's you making notes where not to step into grue.

Sure, but mapping Zork 1's labyrinth is still fun.