Thief fan missions and campaigns

[Melan]

Meanwhile I give skacky the FMOTY 2014 award for "Endless Rain".

(Disclaimer: Verdict does not include TDM FMs.)

So do I, and I have played the TDM FMs. Although not many of the Thief 2 ones.

 

[skacky]

In fact, I just got involved in another one of them - not my project, but I couldn't let the most beautifully realised TDM rooftop mission slip through my fingers.

You tease. Even better than, say, your campaign mission and Home Again? :p
My FMOTY 2014 is naturally Penny Dreadful 2 for TDM and Being Thief 2 for T2.

 

[Melan]

You tease. Even better than, say, your campaign mission and Home Again? :p

Easily better than my campaign missions; this one really runs away with complex, vertical architecture while also having decent performance. To be honest, I didn't think TDM could do this, but I have been proven wrong. It is mainly Shadowhide's work, although there is still a lot of things to do before it can be released. I will try not to get burned out, so I'll work on it parallel with PD3 (which will be one of the smaller ones).

 

[skacky]

Ah this is Shadowhide's map then. Yeah it looked very promising, that's for sure.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'll have to give the FMOTY award to skacky's Endless Rain, too. While Being Thief 2 made more of an initial impression on me due to its size (and being the first NewDark mission to be so huge), Endless Rain just was a tighter and more atmospheric experience.

Haven't played any TDM this year yet.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I had another go at "Keeper of Infinity" since the author updated the FM - at least I got further this time, but I eventually gave up. The FM is slow and choppy EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. For no reason except to look pretty.

I've heard that there are two ways into the city, but the only one I could see was the sewer drain. It actually took me the longest time to realize that it was an intended passage because not only does the flowing water obscure things, but the piece of wood you're supposed to use doesn't look like wood, but like cracked stone. Even then it's a case of trial and error to figure out how to fire the rope arrow into it to be able to get into the drain.

That takes you to the sewer where you have these tiny spiders that shoot magic bolts at you. For no reason.

I did find the crowbar, though more by accident rather than design. There are absolutely NO visible clues around that reveal this secret location, but I'm willing to bet money that there's a readable somewhere at the OTHER END of the FM that mentions "Oh, one of our men went missing in the sewers, he had the crowbar, etc".

I reached the surface and while I enjoyed the cityscape, the choppy framerate just killed all enjoyment for me.

And the readables are all "audiologs-on-paper" in form, which makes me rage. Y U NO LRN 2 RITE GUD?!?

This FM may be wonderful and fantastic, but as is it's just too bloated for no good reason.

 

[Dev_Anj]

So I just dropped in to talk about Thief FMs here, as I have no interest in RPGs in general, and can't find many places to talk about them. Sure, TTLG is where threads for fan missions are created, but most of the time, they tend to devolve into talks about solving the mission's puzzles, cleaning out bugs and the like.

So some people here might be knowing about the controversy in TTLG about better graphics being worth it in fan missions, and Keeper of Infinity seems to highlight what happens when the engine is pushed too far graphically. I feel that it can definitely make for a more enjoyable experience, but again, it would be better for a fan mission maker to atleast maintain an average hardware specification which people would be expected to have, and not go beyond it.

That being said, I don't think fan mission makers should drop improving graphics altogether, since it can enhance the atmosphere and even allow for some distinct looks in missions.

 

[JarlFrank]

I think graphics are fine as they are now (now being anything from 2006 to modern newdark, with custom models and textures). Some authors have their own unmistakeable styles in texturing and atmosphere, and a lot of them are very effective at looking awesome. What authors should look out for is making view distances too big as that can fuck up performance majorly. Yes, newdark can do it, but in practice, it is often too much of a hardware drain and should be used carefully. It just about worked in Breaking the Stone, that one only had negligible lag spikes for me. Anything even more resource draining, and the mission becomes a pain to play.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

So some people here might be knowing about the controversy in TTLG about better graphics being worth it in fan missions, and Keeper of Infinity seems to highlight what happens when the engine is pushed too far graphically. I feel that it can definitely make for a more enjoyable experience, but again, it would be better for a fan mission maker to atleast maintain an average hardware specification which people would be expected to have, and not go beyond it

True. The handful of FMs I've come across that have performance issues (with the exception of Durant) have them because of being under strain, there's too much in them at once and/or the draw distance goes too far. "The Farm", "Death's Turbid Veil", "Keeper of Infinity", these are the big culprits even with NewDark, to the point of being unplayable. Of these three, only the last one has updated textures. Do the authors listen to the fanbase? Of course not, because if there's one thing that kills all discussion on TTLG, it's the constantly chanted mantra of "FM authors can do no wrong" - the reason I stopped taking part in TTLG discussions.

I greatly fear that DrK will go overboard with Rocksbourg 0, leading to an FM with a single-digit framerate.

 

[Melan]

Yeah, what is there to say? Distinctive, good building style >>> high-end assets. There is no shame in a late 90s engine producing late 90s-looking visuals; in fact, the harder you try to push in the opposite direction, the sillier things can get. Sometimes even perfectly round arches stick out like a sore thumb, because you know they don't belong.

Draw distances are trickier. They are the hardest challenge in designing complex environments in both Thief and TDM (for slightly different reasons), and it requires real mastery to reconcile design and technological needs. Or tons of trial and error. There is one specific narrow area in Disorientation that took something like two months of the 11 month build time to get right, and you could still get crashes there if you stepped the wong way. Nightmarish. If possible, this is an area where TDM can be even worse.

 

[Unna Oertdottir]

Of these three, only the last one has updated textures.

Nonsens. You have no idea what you're talking about. Dead's Turbid Veil and Keeper of Infinity share the same textures.

Do the authors listen to the fanbase? Of course not, because if there's one thing that kills all discussion on TTLG, it's the constantly chanted mantra of "FM authors can do no wrong" - the reason I stopped taking part in TTLG discussions.

There are always some whining people who dislike whatever they want to dislike. Try to calm down, don't get upset all the time.
FMs are for free. The authors don't get paid for their hard work.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Nonsens. You have no idea what you're talking about. Dead's Turbid Veil and Keeper of Infinity share the same textures.

I'll admit that I'm recounting from memory here, I may be wrong. Unlike others, I don't take the time to memorize texture groups and where they can be found.

There are always some whining people who dislike whatever they want to dislike. Try to calm down, don't get upset all the time. FMs are for free. The authors don't get paid for their hard work.

I'm well aware that FM authors do this for free in their spare time (except when they use their work to get ahead in the games industry) but that doesn't mean that they're exempt from criticism. TTLG has cases where authors have been told by forum users to ignore those that bring up valid criticism against their work. TTLG is a circle-jerking hugbox, the very last thing any author needs.

 

[Unna Oertdottir]

After reading some pages of this thread, I think you have some valid points now and then.
But why on earth do you get upset if you can't find your path in Kings's Story? Why do you get upset if a foreign author doesn't speak english as expected? Just a few examples.
Why don't you learn DromEd or DarkRadiant and do your own mission? It's much better than whining about fan missions done by others. Give us a fan mission. We'll tell you, what's good, and maybe what's wrong.

 

[Tzaero]

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Why don't you learn DromEd or DarkRadiant and do your own mission? It's much better than whining about fan missions done by others. Give us a fan mission. We'll tell you, what's good, and maybe what's wrong.

Hey, whining is free, as free as making FMs.

And if there's one silly argument is this one: "If you don't like it, do it yourself". The only requirement to criticize a FM is playing it. You don't have to be able to make one. If the authors released it to the public, you can say anything you think about it, but of course any sensible person will take into account it's something made by people in their free time. Which I think is Unkillable Cat's case.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

But why on earth do you get upset if you can't find your path in Kings's Story?

I've answered this reason three times now, both here and on TTLG. The tl:dr version: Just because someone knows how to make wonderful scenery and architecture in a cantankerous editor, doesn't mean that they know basic game design. The third time round I even went the extra distance and reviewed/criticized all of King's Story instead of just the start. That first mission is just horribly terribly bad, it has no defence, no reason, no purpose.

But as Darth Slaughter mentions, I do all of this because I care. I find it simply amazing that there are people willing to devote their time to create new content for a game released 15 years ago, but that doesn't mean that I give everyone a free pass because they're dedicated to a game I care about. One of the reasons is that with Thief there came a certain set of game design standards that have changed over the years, and not all of those changes are good. I point out when people are blatantly ignoring Thief's standards and taking up newer, inappropriate standards. It's mostly when FM authors break those standards that I go tear their works a new orifice.

Why do you get upset if a foreign author doesn't speak english as expected?

That is personal bias, I'll admit. I have worked (and still do from time to time) as a proofreader, a profession that has come under constant fire due to the arrival of computers and the internet with their in-built encyclopedias/dictionaries, not to mention the inevitable conflicts with people's egos. It seems people actually get offended and take it personally if you point out that their spelling/grammar is incorrect, and doubly so if you get paid for it in the process.

I'll also admit that sometimes I can't spot if people are foreigners still learning English, or "native" English speakers that just suck at it.

 

[Melan]

Welcome to RPGCodex, Unna Oertdottir! So, which TTLG user are you?

Everyone else: I'd like to play a few decent Thief 2 missions released in the last two years (I think I have played everything for Thief 1). I like gameplay over story, and the classic Thief setting over weird offshoots. I would rather not play one of those ultra-difficult hardcorer-than-thou missions [edit]or missions with heavy puzzle content[/edit]. What would you recommend?

 

[Dev_Anj]

Why don't you learn DromEd or DarkRadiant and do your own mission? It's much better than whining about fan missions done by others. Give us a fan mission. We'll tell you, what's good, and maybe what's wrong.

You know, you don't have to make a mission or game to criticize one, in the same way that you don't need to actually cook any dish to criticize its taste. Regardless, I'm actually interested in making Thief fan missions. I was inspired to open Dromed and try things in it for a while thanks to a Computer Graphics book in my syllabus. It was a bit tough to understand, and it didn't behave properly till I upgraded it to NewDark v 1.22, but I'm getting there. I would still appreciate more resources to learn Dromeding, as most of them available off TTLG and other sites are outdated. ThiefFM_Dale made a good tutorial but unfortunately, it's incomplete.

Anyway, you seem to be a fan mission author. Did you make any fan mission yet, and what were they? Welcome to the forums!

 

[skacky]

WRT high-res textures and stuff: I actually have a super secret project in the backburner that will throw everyone back to 98.
It's still a very long way to go so don't expect anything before a while.

 

[Icewater]

WRT high-res textures and stuff: I actually have a super secret project in the backburner that will throw everyone back to 98.

 

[MrMarbles]

After reading some pages of this thread, I think you have some valid points now and then.
But why on earth do you get upset if you can't find your path in Kings's Story? Why do you get upset if a foreign author doesn't speak english as expected? Just a few examples.
Why don't you learn DromEd or DarkRadiant and do your own mission? It's much better than whining about fan missions done by others. Give us a fan mission. We'll tell you, what's good, and maybe what's wrong.

Welcome to the Codex, proud daughter of Iceland!

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Welcome to the Codex, proud daughter of Iceland!

I strongly doubt that she's Icelandic, despite the name.

 

[MrMarbles]

Would be great tho, pretty epic place. It's like an adventurer that hails from Kuldahar or something

 

[Dev_Anj]

Would be great tho, pretty epic place. It's like an adventurer that hails from Kuldahar or something

What about India then?

 

[JarlFrank]

About the criticism, well, if I actually finish my DarkMod mission I have in the works one day, I'd want people to tell me if they hate it, and why.

Yes, I enjoy getting positive feedback and people telling me what they enjoyed about my work. I write fiction, and I am usually told my stories are pretty good. But I'm always glad when there's a "I liked it, BUT" in a review I get. Criticism of my style, of my plotting, telling me of grammatical or spelling errors if there are any. I want to know that shit. I want to know what the fuck I did wrong so I can do it not wrong the next time. If nobody tells me what's wrong, I'll just keep doing it wrong.

It's even more relevant in game design, I think. You can just ignore a few badly written lines or some awkward dialogue in a story, as long as the rest of it is good. But in a game, a section that just utterly sucks or is frustrating as fuck can break the whole experience and discourage replays. "I enjoyed that mission overall, but UGH, that one puzzle was SO SHIT, I don't wanna go through that ever again!" If I'm a mission author, and create a puzzle that is so frustrating nobody likes it, I would want to be told about that so I can think about how to improve that part of my game design.

It's simple as that. You can't improve if nobody tells you that you should improve. Yeah, you can improve if you notice some faults in your work by yourself, but that's not going to happen if everyone tells you you're the best guy ever and shouldn't be criticized. It's just reinforcement of bad habits.

Negative reviews, if they actually contain valid criticism rather than simple "lol u suk", are ten times as valuable as positive reviews are, because they tell you what's wrong with your work.