Wasteland This combat is very annoying

[Toll]

"Of course, it be nice if theyw ere all unqiue maps but that just isn't feasible. I don't think any game has ever managed to pull that off."

What like UFO:Enemy Unknown?

 

[Toll]

With the random encounters it would have been good if the maps at least had randomised cover.

I also dislike HP Bloat as a mechanic for higher level mobs. I've never like it. It doesn't make sense that a person magically can take lots more damage for being more experienced. That should be left to the equipment. Higher levels should mean higher skills, not MAOR hitpoints, a very poor/lazy game design choice in any game imo.

 

[tindrli]

well, maybe things will change with a time and mods as we all used to.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Jamming isn't an issue when you use sturdy mags in your weapons. Plus, it happens to enemies as well.

I'm mostly pissed by the insane amounts of movement AP's that many enemies seem to have. Any sort of formation-based tactics become often completely pointless because enemies can and will run circles around you. A level 1 bandit with a machete ran 24 AP's distance in a single turn at the Radio Tower. How is that possible? I can understand the bunnies and supaflies and other inherently fast creatures moving a lot but it's far more distressing when megaslugs and pod-people and regular humans come across as parkour-ninjas on speed.

This significantly reduces the importance of cover and of tactical movement on the battlefield, which is the one saviour for the combat in Shadowrun which - similarly to Wasteland - doesn't have that many options in combat to play with.

 

[Volourn]

Actually, pod people are slow compared to most things since they are basically the game's zombies. Still, movement speed is easily the thing about combat that needs 'fixing' the most.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, pod people might not reach your party in a single turn if you're far enough, like the long tunnels in the mushroom caves, but anywhere else they can and will reach you. And they pretty much are the slowest enemy I've come across yet.

In any case, reminds me a lot of F1/F2 combat.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Actually, in the case of pod people, they are so slow you can arm your entire squad with 2x4s to conserve ammo and do hit'n'runs without getting hit once.

 

[Mortmal]

Thats what i am noticing too so far, and even if MAYBE it will open up later in the game i already invested 20 hours into it , combats always the same. From what i experienced, specializing one character in melee was really a bad idea, damage is too low and even point blank shotguns and handguns oing more damage ,they can apply bleed effect too.
Another big annoyance is no party tactical formation, you have to place them one by one and then snipe to start the encounter, else they will trigger it as a big blob , too close and ready to friendly fire . Speaking of friendly fire, i was doing a quest in damonta with red (you get no control on him) , that doesnt bother him to shoot with heavy weapon in the back of the party damaging all of them.....

Should i restart , i wont use any melee ,its completely useless, you want to annoy sharpshooter, just snipe for massive damage with a sniper. Most points in intelligence since we never get enough skill points. Its an ok game , but the combat system is really primitive alas.

 

[Volourn]

Melee is useful. I wish people would FUCK OFF with that kind of bullshit. Don't be ignorant.

 

[RandomAccount]

Volourn, are you sitting at home refreshing this topic waiting to type 'CAPS INSULT' at anyone who posts anything negative about the combat in W2?

 

[Zetor]

Yep, melee works. It can crit ridiculously high (like 70+ with a lead pipe, still early in the game), you never need to reload/unjam, you can punish ranged enemies decently well (they waste their turns running from cover to cover), you have decent armor penetration, concussion is much more useful than bleeding, and - most importantly - melee weapons never run out of ammo. If I had to single out a weapon type as being weak, it'd be handguns (and maybe SMGs). If heavy weapons skill doesn't factor into accuracy with rocket launchers, I'd call that underwhelming too.

e: don't consider this a defense of the combat in this game, though -- I still consider it formulaic and boring, maybe it'll change in California

 

[Volourn]

I'd have to insult myself then since I've criticized the game/combat myself. But, if you are gonna bash it better be logical bashing.

Someone claiming melee is 'completely useless' is blatantly bullshit.

 

[RandomAccount]

Can't the refutation be logical? If you're tired there'll always be someone willing to post a solid paragraph about why the guy's wrong. I agree, it must be quite tiresome repeating the same paragraphs over 11 years here, but you have to remember, the poster in question likely hasn't ever read your previous 18,328 posts.

I had a look at a let's play of W2 on Youtube (that's how us modern 'gamers' - or whatever we're supposed to call ourselves after gamergate killed the internet - tend to appraise new games nowadays, like watching your mate before purchase) and all I saw was *miss* *miss* *miss* *hit* (unarmed) then *Jam* then monster survives round with one hit point left and *suicide run!* from NPC characters.

It might be arguable how 'good' such a system is, but it certainly stopped me from buying a copy...

 

[Mortmal]

Sniper can crit at 90 from far without any risk to be hit , shotgun seen hit for 50+ multiple targets . Melee force you to run ouf ot cover , ambush doesnt work,you have neither more accuracy or damage than ranged weapons point blank . Its useless.

You never need to reload with melee indeed,its not a big problem even my shotguns have 12 shots in the barrel now . Ammo isnt a problem in my game ,i am drowning in ammo and cash, jamming not a huge issue for me .I dont remember energy weapons jamming a single time either.

I have a legit copy on steam if you dont believe me.

 

[Visperas]

Is there a way to set the whole party in ambush mode before the encounter starts? Also, can i start an encounter by shooting simultaneously two or more enemies?
I don' think so and that's weak.

 

[Volourn]

"ambush doesnt work,"

See this. You are lying. Melee ambush does work. This is fact.


"Its useless"

Bullshit. You've yet to back this up with facts.

I find them very useful. As do others going by various posts.

 

[RandomAccount]

It's like taking to a boulder...

 

[Kem0sabe]

"ambush doesnt work,"

See this. You are lying. Melee ambush does work. This is fact.


"Its useless"

Bullshit. You've yet to back this up with facts.

I find them very useful. As do others going by various posts.

´
Melee ambush only works if the enemy is in the square right in front of you, which is bullshit.

 

[Zetor]

e: yeah, what Kem0sabe said. I think it's a bug, since my pistol and rifle characters had no problems ambushing enemies coming from the sides.

 

[Mortmal]

Same here , any ranged weapon ambush works, i've seen enemies going past the melee character without triggering any attacks . I guess its like kemo said, i affects only one square , another point against melee. I should mention too theres very little upgrades, i ve used the basic knife a very long time, then only got ranger knife , and finally using an hatchet(oddly count as blade, its like grimoire club&scimitars skill...), while for others characters i have to resell their guns as theres too many to carry.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, melee ambush only works if the enemy steps right up to your face while ranged ambush doesn't care which direction the enemy is coming from.

Actually, in the case of pod people, they are so slow you can arm your entire squad with 2x4s to conserve ammo and do hit'n'runs without getting hit once.

Please tell my pod people to be slow like that. They easily walk across the greenhouses to my party even when I begin the combat from the tunnel and considering that they explode when they die, I need to keep my distance. Of course, if you don't care about getting hit for 10-12 points every time one is killed...

 

[Darth Roxor]

Please tell my pod people to be slow like that. They easily walk across the greenhouses to my party even when I begin the combat from the tunnel and considering that they explode when they die, I need to keep my distance. Of course, if you don't care about getting hit for 10-12 points every time one is killed...

Idk mang, for me they always crossed 3 tiles a turn at best. Oh and their melee attack costs a lot of ap apparently, cuz they can't attack even after going through 2 tiles. And the deathsplosion counts only for adjacent tiles, so for me it was possible to just whack them with Kung-Fu dude + Angela's wrench + cheap-ass ammo (sniper, .38) until they got to near-death, and then pop their moles in isolation so nobody gets hurt in the resulting explosion. This is on Ranger difficulty.


As for melee ambush, it's either bugged up the ass or hella badly coded/designed. In my case, it never works when the enemy just stops next to the ambushing guy - it only goes off when the enemy tries running past the ambusher.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, I also noticed that they don't attack if they don't start very close to my girls but I've seen them march quite a few tiles to get to them. But occasionally the AI is paralyzed by fear, which is funny as fuck - I've seen it to happen to all sorts of enemies, that one monster just stands there doing nothing, while another moves/attacks/shoots whatever.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

Melee ambush only works if the enemy is in the square right in front of you, which is bullshit.

Certain melee weapons cannot attack diagonally (it's in their description) and the AI will usually take advantage of that, if it can.

In general, I think that while many of the complaints make sense, even more of them boil down to people not having played the game enough, experimented with the various options it offers (like Cyberarmy said above) or even paid proper attention to the in-game descriptions. Skills, attributes and especially equipment all have very tangible impact on tactics. Positioning and weapon switching are crucial; I'd say that positioning plays at least as important a role as in Shadowrun, even though enemies do tend to move too fast. You can place all team members individually before most encounters and get a simultaneous first shot in with a selected group of snipers, you can create chokepoints and plan several waves of retreat (possible but not as necessary in SRR), friendly fire is a major factor, effects of the leadership skill have a spatial radius you need to take into account, ambush works differently for different weapon types, etc. Weapon switching (even from inventory) costs no AP (although reloading does) and basically emulates the effect of having various types of attacks -- you can easily have a pick of four of five weapons, each with different armour penetration, AP cost, damage output, optimal range, critical chance/modifier values. (People complain about this or that weapon type being not as good as others, but in my experience it's really a question of what you can get your hands on and how well your character is built for the given weapon skill.)

What I'm trying to say is that while the combat system is fairly simple and has some evident (and annoying) flaws, it offers a lot more tactical options than you'd think at first glance (see also Cyberarmy's post above). I'm 40 hours in and it's still pretty challenging and fun, which frankly is all I was hoping for in a Wasteland game (and didn't really expect to get after the early beta).

 

[Volourn]

"I've seen it to happen to all sorts of enemies, that one monster just stands there doing nothing, while another moves/attacks/shoots whatever."

I'd say it's some sort of bug that has the AI trying to do a certain thing but being unable to.

I found it happen in the mind with the badgers. Taking on 6 at once was suicidal so I backtracked to one of the dead ends and blocked off my sniper. Some of the badgers stopped approaching ebcause of it but as soon I had moved as to open a lane to the sniper they would starting approaching again. It was obvious to me the AI wanted to melee the sniper but since it couldn't instead of choosing another target it became frozen in a loop.

That reminds me, the melee AI is definitely set to focus on snipers.

I also would like the ability to leave combat. In the same cave, I was by the entrance and the badgers had stopped approaching me but I couldn't exit combat or leave the cave. That is dumb dumb.