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Wasteland This combat is very annoying
- Thread starter Darth Roxor
- Start date
R00fles!
Norfleet
Moderator
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- Jun 3, 2005
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I like to arrange my guys in a shallow "U" or "L" with the snipers and other high-priority targets the AI loves to pursue in the center and my SMG and shotgunmen on the sides. The enemy charges straight into the killbox then runs out of AP for attacking, and I rake him with enfilade fire. Should any survive the hosedown, I flog them to death with my crowbars. At 2 AP per attack, you can lay out a lot of crowbar beatdown to remove distractions from your face, easily enough to finish off wounded foes.
I like the game and its combat but combat really needs to be improved.
-Armor not really matters, it mitigates tiny damage and weapons generally have high AP. It only matter when energy weapons come into play.
-Rifles outshine other weapons easly, the whole game. Better burst than SMGs, equal range with most snipers and needs less AP to shoot, good armor pierce, have lots of customisation options. Shotguns are only better when used against crowds. I wont be using a shotgunner and SMGer in my next playthrough only give them NPCs probably. Dunno what to think about heavy weapons, they are really powerful but you need high skill to shoot good, they burn bullets really quick. Again some assault weapons have better burst.
-Blades are probably the worst melee weapons, crit chance is a minimal difference and can be added via mods to blunt weapons which have higher damage output than blades. 10 armor piercing Plasma hammer hits over 200 critical damage for 4 AP. Brawling is also nice with %100 crit chance.
-Melee can use more effects and skills. Like special bleed, slow, stun, pushback attacks. Enemies have these but depends on luck mostly. Animals have leg wounds, robots can stun, junkies apply disease.
-Speed is hella broken, %70 of the enemies can run near to my sniper after alpha strike eventhough she shot them from max. range... I'm OK with flies and dogs doing that but not OK with armored robots, human enemies.
-Explosives are really powerful. They are rare, expensive and situational, yes but can easly win most hard battles in seconds. Limiting their Armor pierce and area of effect to a demolotions expert can be a good idea. Or maybe heavy weapons for rockets demolotions for granades.
-AI can use some help, pistollers and melee often changes targets in the same turn even when he can kill someone. Rifle and shotgun users don't have this behaviour, they keep firing on the same target unless they lost sight of it. Lobbers are dangerous but p.stupid most of the time, they target some strange places hitting noone.
-Headshot is useless, with that 2 AP I can go for 2 shots per turn with most weapons with crit chance! I only used it for some alpha stirkes with high AP costing sniper rifles like Anti material rifle. Just for the lulz.
-Some high level mods are not very useful, RNG is a bitch when you want a certain mod (goddamn silencers!!!!) and shotgun mods are mostly a joke. Game can use special ammo.
I don't think they'll add things or change combat mostly but I hope to see more stuff in Numenera and Wasteland 3.
-Armor not really matters, it mitigates tiny damage and weapons generally have high AP. It only matter when energy weapons come into play.
-Rifles outshine other weapons easly, the whole game. Better burst than SMGs, equal range with most snipers and needs less AP to shoot, good armor pierce, have lots of customisation options. Shotguns are only better when used against crowds. I wont be using a shotgunner and SMGer in my next playthrough only give them NPCs probably. Dunno what to think about heavy weapons, they are really powerful but you need high skill to shoot good, they burn bullets really quick. Again some assault weapons have better burst.
-Blades are probably the worst melee weapons, crit chance is a minimal difference and can be added via mods to blunt weapons which have higher damage output than blades. 10 armor piercing Plasma hammer hits over 200 critical damage for 4 AP. Brawling is also nice with %100 crit chance.
-Melee can use more effects and skills. Like special bleed, slow, stun, pushback attacks. Enemies have these but depends on luck mostly. Animals have leg wounds, robots can stun, junkies apply disease.
-Speed is hella broken, %70 of the enemies can run near to my sniper after alpha strike eventhough she shot them from max. range... I'm OK with flies and dogs doing that but not OK with armored robots, human enemies.
-Explosives are really powerful. They are rare, expensive and situational, yes but can easly win most hard battles in seconds. Limiting their Armor pierce and area of effect to a demolotions expert can be a good idea. Or maybe heavy weapons for rockets demolotions for granades.
-AI can use some help, pistollers and melee often changes targets in the same turn even when he can kill someone. Rifle and shotgun users don't have this behaviour, they keep firing on the same target unless they lost sight of it. Lobbers are dangerous but p.stupid most of the time, they target some strange places hitting noone.
-Headshot is useless, with that 2 AP I can go for 2 shots per turn with most weapons with crit chance! I only used it for some alpha stirkes with high AP costing sniper rifles like Anti material rifle. Just for the lulz.
-Some high level mods are not very useful, RNG is a bitch when you want a certain mod (goddamn silencers!!!!) and shotgun mods are mostly a joke. Game can use special ammo.
I don't think they'll add things or change combat mostly but I hope to see more stuff in Numenera and Wasteland 3.
Lord Andre
Arcane
Volourn
Pretty Princess
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2003
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- 24,990
"-Melee can use more effects and skills. Like special bleed, slow, stun, pushback attacks. Enemies have these but depends on luck mostly. Animals have leg wounds, robots can stun, junkies apply disease."
Melee can concuss (bludgeon) or bleed (blade).
"-Rifles outshine other weapons easly, the whole game. Better burst than SMGs, equal range with most snipers and needs less AP to shoot, good armor pierce, have lots of customisation options. Shotguns are only better when used against crowds. I wont be using a shotgunner and SMGer in my next playthrough only give them NPCs probably. Dunno what to think about heavy weapons, they are really powerful but you need high skill to shoot good, they burn bullets really quick. Again some assault weapons have better burst."
SMGs are friggin' awesome. The sniper is awesome.Melee is awesome. Pistols aren't as good, but I guess that's reasonable but I haven't gotten the uber ones yet. In later playthroughs I wouldn't bother with a pistol anyways since they use the same bullets as SMGs so it is better to horde those bullets for the superior weaponry.
"Explosives are really powerful. They are rare, expensive and situational, yes but can easly win most hard battles in seconds. Limiting their Armor pierce and area of effect to a demolotions expert can be a good idea. Or maybe heavy weapons for rockets demolotions for granades."
Definitely should be tied to a skill.
Melee can concuss (bludgeon) or bleed (blade).
"-Rifles outshine other weapons easly, the whole game. Better burst than SMGs, equal range with most snipers and needs less AP to shoot, good armor pierce, have lots of customisation options. Shotguns are only better when used against crowds. I wont be using a shotgunner and SMGer in my next playthrough only give them NPCs probably. Dunno what to think about heavy weapons, they are really powerful but you need high skill to shoot good, they burn bullets really quick. Again some assault weapons have better burst."
SMGs are friggin' awesome. The sniper is awesome.Melee is awesome. Pistols aren't as good, but I guess that's reasonable but I haven't gotten the uber ones yet. In later playthroughs I wouldn't bother with a pistol anyways since they use the same bullets as SMGs so it is better to horde those bullets for the superior weaponry.
"Explosives are really powerful. They are rare, expensive and situational, yes but can easly win most hard battles in seconds. Limiting their Armor pierce and area of effect to a demolotions expert can be a good idea. Or maybe heavy weapons for rockets demolotions for granades."
Definitely should be tied to a skill.
-Melee weapons have those effects but it depends on luck with a little percentage. There are some low damage weapons that only deal specific effects but they are not that useful. Some on demand skills, attacks can be good.
-SMGs deal good damage but rifles with burst deal better and have much better range. With less ammo. I can use MP5s burst 2 times dealing near 200 while my assault can use one burst and one normal attack for near 250 damage with higher Armor pierce too.
Same for snipers, you can shoot 1&2 times for good damage but again a rifle with burst deals more damage wtih similar range. There are really good pistols late game (M1911 for example) but they cost high AP and have low range.
My 2 riflle user and 1 sniper can easly down 1 enemy with ambushes while other strugle.
-SMGs deal good damage but rifles with burst deal better and have much better range. With less ammo. I can use MP5s burst 2 times dealing near 200 while my assault can use one burst and one normal attack for near 250 damage with higher Armor pierce too.
Same for snipers, you can shoot 1&2 times for good damage but again a rifle with burst deals more damage wtih similar range. There are really good pistols late game (M1911 for example) but they cost high AP and have low range.
My 2 riflle user and 1 sniper can easly down 1 enemy with ambushes while other strugle.
Onholyservicebound
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 1,567
Going rogue is not an issue, it gives use to leadership and charisma, arguing that it should be affected by your gameplay over your stats is anti-RPG . Different characters having different rogue chances is completely legitimate, you'd have to be a real tryhard to play it off as bad, because it isn't, and in any case i have a leadership of I believe 7 and haven't seen an npc go rogue since arizona. ( I know scotchmo and Dan Q had high rogue chance but I don't use either of them.) But yes, there is character to different NPCs deciding that they're more competent than your aspie ranger leader.
Melee is useful, like most weapons, the usefulness varies depending on what point of the game you're playing. But let me list why melee is great: High crit, I've hit damages of 140 in one swing, or 112 twice in a row(with unarmed character), because melee characters are almost always more durable, having their main stat be tied to con, they can easily flank enemies and give them pressure, otherwise, ammo is the big offender, and if you think ammo grows on trees, then good for you, you either play very very thoroughly(minmaxed party and maybe some save scumming) or you're just fucking around on easy. Taking the mannerite camp just now, I have solely my melee characters to thank for success. I went in with 30+ rounds for my sniper, 45+ rounds for my rifleman, and over 150 for my subgun, my diplomat/pistol never runs out of ammo, which is the pro of pistols. In any case, by the end my ranged were whittled to 10-11 shots, and my subgunner was out completely, with just melee I managed to crush two meson cannons and about a dozen or more mannerite guards. Then of course I go to spend a few hundred thousand more scrap on overpriced assault rifle ammo.
Anecdotal? Sure, but the balance is there for me.
Melee is useful, like most weapons, the usefulness varies depending on what point of the game you're playing. But let me list why melee is great: High crit, I've hit damages of 140 in one swing, or 112 twice in a row(with unarmed character), because melee characters are almost always more durable, having their main stat be tied to con, they can easily flank enemies and give them pressure, otherwise, ammo is the big offender, and if you think ammo grows on trees, then good for you, you either play very very thoroughly(minmaxed party and maybe some save scumming) or you're just fucking around on easy. Taking the mannerite camp just now, I have solely my melee characters to thank for success. I went in with 30+ rounds for my sniper, 45+ rounds for my rifleman, and over 150 for my subgun, my diplomat/pistol never runs out of ammo, which is the pro of pistols. In any case, by the end my ranged were whittled to 10-11 shots, and my subgunner was out completely, with just melee I managed to crush two meson cannons and about a dozen or more mannerite guards. Then of course I go to spend a few hundred thousand more scrap on overpriced assault rifle ammo.
Anecdotal? Sure, but the balance is there for me.
Characters in LA have higher rogue chance. With my 6 leadership Ertan has %30 which I believe leaves him with %10 even 10 leadership. Heavygunner is the last person you ever want to go rogue.
Also it become chaotic when my leader is down, all them leadership is gone and my only surgeon Rose goes mad a lot...
Ammo ceased to be a problem for me after early Arizona (I open anything I can and dig like a mole) only once I forgot to check my snipers ammo and had used him in melee for a while. Other than that I rarely buy ammo, mostly when I found a new weapon that uses a new ammo type. I feel lucky about energy cells and assault ammo.
Also it become chaotic when my leader is down, all them leadership is gone and my only surgeon Rose goes mad a lot...
Ammo ceased to be a problem for me after early Arizona (I open anything I can and dig like a mole) only once I forgot to check my snipers ammo and had used him in melee for a while. Other than that I rarely buy ammo, mostly when I found a new weapon that uses a new ammo type. I feel lucky about energy cells and assault ammo.
Onholyservicebound
Arcane
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Then don't use unstable companions, I think it's a neat feature. And having your leader going down negatively affect the party sounds reasonable to me, just like any combat related skill character going down should have an effect. No sniper, no medic, no w/e.
Even in the best scenario, ammo still has weight, you still need to reload, it's harder to get around enemy cover for shooting than it is for melee to flank, there's no jamming, although the jam nerf makes that point weaker, and if they bother to fix the armor system that extra money saved from selling all your ammo will be nicely useful. I have no issue with my party, which is mostly melee(2 blunt, 1 blade, 1 unarmed), I never savescummed and my dedicated looter has a 4 in both lockpicking/safecracking, I rushed through Arizona due to having played the beta extensively, so I was underleveled, but I still didn't struggle in combat, which is why I don't think melee is as bad as you make it out to be.
My unarmed character doesn't have their skill maxed like my sniper and assault rifle does, and they still manage to cause at least two enemies to violently explode each turn.(Ranger difficulty)
Even in the best scenario, ammo still has weight, you still need to reload, it's harder to get around enemy cover for shooting than it is for melee to flank, there's no jamming, although the jam nerf makes that point weaker, and if they bother to fix the armor system that extra money saved from selling all your ammo will be nicely useful. I have no issue with my party, which is mostly melee(2 blunt, 1 blade, 1 unarmed), I never savescummed and my dedicated looter has a 4 in both lockpicking/safecracking, I rushed through Arizona due to having played the beta extensively, so I was underleveled, but I still didn't struggle in combat, which is why I don't think melee is as bad as you make it out to be.
My unarmed character doesn't have their skill maxed like my sniper and assault rifle does, and they still manage to cause at least two enemies to violently explode each turn.(Ranger difficulty)
Eh I don't have any problems about anyone going rogue, I love me some chaotic combat. And they don't fuck up much if they have a long ranged weapon.
Melee is not bad, rifles and snipers are just superior due to ranged advantage. My melee mostly sleeps of boredom or finishes of anyone lucky enough to get near. Assault rifles, most energy weapons and SMGs rarely need reload in battle, only sniper rifles and some shotguns need 1 or 2 reloads depending on enemy numbers.
Ammo and medipack weight is my main problem right now
My medic who hoarded over 100 medpecs, over 100 shotgunshells and 50 energy cells can barely hold anything else without getting "yellow" warning. (I suppose this one don't have any side effects but still avoiding it)
Melee is not bad, rifles and snipers are just superior due to ranged advantage. My melee mostly sleeps of boredom or finishes of anyone lucky enough to get near. Assault rifles, most energy weapons and SMGs rarely need reload in battle, only sniper rifles and some shotguns need 1 or 2 reloads depending on enemy numbers.
Ammo and medipack weight is my main problem right now
My medic who hoarded over 100 medpecs, over 100 shotgunshells and 50 energy cells can barely hold anything else without getting "yellow" warning. (I suppose this one don't have any side effects but still avoiding it)Norfleet
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Pistols are generally ineffectual weapons due to their extremely bad range and poor armor penetration. Due to the way the skill system works, they don't even really make an effective sidearm, since your sniper can't hit shit with the pistol even at point blank range. Given that you're going to have to invest a sizeable number of skillpoints in it anyway, if you must take a secondary weapon skill on a sniper, take crowbar. With some fortune and a weakened enemy, you might be able to bash an enemy to death with it with enough AP to still fire a shot, since you can take two crowbar swings on 10 AP and still have enough to fire a 5-6 AP snipe. If this hasn't killed him...well, you won't be sniping, but now you get an extra 3 more crowbar whacks.
Yeah, I think somewhere in there, enemies have absolutely insane AP values, because I have seen enemies that will run all the way from outside maximum sniper range, then begin stabbing your dudes. Not one dude, mind you. They run around crazily from dude to dude, stabbing them apparently at random. What the hell is with that?
Gunner, if he has decent range on his gun, going rogue is not quite as bad as a melee or other short-range character going rogue, because a gunner that goes rogue likely simply fires at the enemy, and you were gonna do that anyway. If a shortrange character goes rogue, it suicides into the enemy lines. It can help if you cockblock them with wall of bodies so that they cannot simply charge the enemy lines as your front-liners are blocking the way, especially since the relatively poor stopping power of weapons has you lining up like musketeers anyway.
Ah, the one thing which sounds totally realistic. I have personally witnessed this happen in real life several times. Your guys are not a military unit with a clear chain of command, and when an unruly band held together by a single leader without a clear chain of command has that leader bite it, it goes all to pieces.
Last edited:
sser
Arcane
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Going rogue is a fine mechanic, but WL2's implementation is just lazy and bad. The shit AI doesn't really help matters as 'rogue' members tend to utilize the same AI functions as your enemies which is, ostensibly, to run up to their opponents' faces. That my most intelligent party member (Rose) "aaah motherland"'s across the entire fucking map to stand next to a extremely dangerous wild animal, while my dumb as a rock created characters stoically understand the danger of the situation, is just mindnumbingly dumb. I'm not even sure why it only affects the hired people in the first place. Are the grizzled vets you can hire so mindfucked that a couple of rookie Rangers have more foresight and mental stability? The whole concept is so halfassed it just irritates me to no end. It feels like the game is missing a trait system or a morale system - either one of which could affect the going rogue mechanic, and it could effect everyone, instead of it effecting all hired peoples.
Norfleet
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I think this is basically an AI defect there, where, if it isn't in range to attack something, it will immediately charge the enemy even if will still not enable it to actually attack since it will have no AP to attack with. The mechanic would be far less annoying if the AI wasn't so BAD. This same issue is why you need to intentionally construct a "cage" out of your teammates to block in your NPC followers who you need to stay alive. Otherwise, being that they are typically armed with pistols or melee weapons, they will immediately run out into the field screaming "LEEROY JENKINS!", and die.
Norfleet
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Someone has to carry my luggage. Also, by NPCs, I was talking about the non-recruitable guys who follow you around as part of quests.
Do your guys get more XPs if you don't take NPCs with you, or every body gets the same XP from quests nomatter how many person is in a party.
Norfleet
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I have not noticed any loss of XP from increasing my party size, so it is more or less advantageous to run a full party. This gives you slaves to run your non-killing-shit skills, freeing you to optimize your party more towards killing shit. The truth is you don't actually need that many shooters to deliver enough firepower, but it really helps to be able to construct a meatwall.
And someone has to carry your luggage. I dunno about you, but I, like any oldschool RPG player, strip the dungeon of everything that isn't nailed down, and if it can be pried loose, it isn't nailed down.
Volourn
Pretty Princess
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"Do your guys get more XPs if you don't take NPCs with you, or every body gets the same XP from quests nomatter how many person is in a party."
Wouldn't know since I haven't played with any npcs except the non joining ones (like the guy who shows you where his radiation suits are).
Wouldn't know since I haven't played with any npcs except the non joining ones (like the guy who shows you where his radiation suits are).
Norfleet
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But the luggage! Who carries all that loot? It is heavy! I know I personally have regularly returned from runs in which I have to carefully divide all the items to keep everyone JUST within their weight allowance, and I've come back with loot loaded in there up to the very last pound. If I didn't have those extra 3 mules, I'd have had to abort the level early to unload the loot! Very annoying! Why do no games offer you an actual literal mule to carry your crap home on?
What I want is an actual mule, one that I can tie to a fence somewhere at the start of the level, where, upon completion, I can load all my loot onto my mule. Perhaps even with mule-related gameplay where surplus party members, instead of cooling their heels forever somewhere, are used to guard the mules. I know in JA2, you had entire secondary teams whose jobs involved tending your base camp, fixing your stuff, and I hear the latest version has more Drassen Counter-Attack style results.
Dungeon Siege
Also kinda Daggerfall
Norfleet
Moderator
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I thought of that shortly after I posted, but the mule in Dungeon Siege doesn't really count because it actually takes up a party slot (and offers you little in improved capacity over an actual partymember). It is therefore mostly a gimmick, rather than a true implementation of a mule.Dungeon Siege
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