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Thoughts about encounter design, structure and pacing in Path of the Damned difficulty

Gord

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My experience is that there are encounters that often can be approached by 'select all -> attack' (slimes, low tier vessels, early xaurips), but there are others that require more involvement (e.g. Ogres, Shadow-variants).
It's something that should be expanded, however.
 

hell bovine

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Also one the problems with PoE trash mobs is time to bring them down. As pointed there were lots of trash mobs in IE games like in Gnoll fortress in BG1, but what they had in common was that you could destroy them very quickly. There is few things worse then a game made of trash mobs forcing you to spend 10 times longer then usual to get rid of one
Maybe this is a sign that you're not playing as well as you might think. :M

My experience is that combat encounters are over much too quick.
Oh please, we aren't talking here about some advanced tactical skills that are necessary to win battles in PoE. The reason why combat drags on, is because it's like replaying the same battle again and again for the majority of the game, while using the same tactics most of the time. You can speed it up by replacing NPCs with rogues, but frankly, considering the NPCs were the interesting (or at least definitely more interesting than combat) part of the game, that wouldn't be an improvement. There is simply too little variety and too little challenge, which combined with increased enemy numbers on PotD makes every encounter feel like a chore.
 

Mangoose

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Some thoughts based on an incomplete playthrough.

It's my observation that problems that people have with games often have to do less with specific features or design choices, and more with how those design choices come together.

Let's look at Pillars of Eternity's wilderness encounters under Path of the Damned difficulty (The One True Difficulty Level™). Many of them are quite challenging. I would never call them "trash combat" and individually, they're pretty fun to overcome.

PoE, however, has a peculiar sort of design. In the standard oldschool RPG model, you have a main quest, whose difficulty gradually goes up, plus lots of optional content, including "happy hunting ground"-type areas that have combat that usually isn't incredibly involved. Typically, you might find yourself unable to progress in the main quest until you've gone grinding for XP in the happy hunting ground, via killing monsters or solving various sidequests. BG1's wilderness areas excel at this, field after field full of trash mobs you can roll over while journeying from town town. It's not "good encounter design", but it is a well-paced, tradtional RPG experience.

In PoE/PotD, however, the optional locations in every area are noticeably more difficult than the main path. It's what I call the "Deathclaw Promontory Design Principle". In other words, the traditional model is inverted. You don't grind optional content to be able to progress on the main quest. Instead, you might find yourself pursuing the main quest further so you can revisit and complete the optional content.

And hence the pacing problem. In most story-driven RPGs, the main quest encounters are inevitable more likely to be more interestingly designed, more story-relevant, more likely to involve intelligent human foes rather than brute monsters, more likely to yield interesting loot, etc. And so you have a game where the player's sense of pacing is skewed and unexpected. He might spend a great deal of time on dealing with combat that is relatively less interesting, and less time with the combat that's supposed to be more interesting.

Say I run into a large horde of lions in some out of the way cove in Woodend Plains and Stormwall Gorge. A bunch of melee monsters that maul your tank to death in seconds if you don't control them properly with debuffs. That's pretty cool. Three times, however, and it's not so much that you're not enjoying yourself (I'd say every encounter is just different enough that it's not quite a matter of repeating the exact same tactic three times), but you begin wondering whether you should really be spending so much time in a wilderness area doing something so comparatively unimportant. It's all in the pacing. The overall impression one gets is that the wilderness areas aren't really BG1-style wilderness romps at all, but actually dungeon areas that happen to be above ground.

So, what I would do with PoE/PotD is actually consider making some of the encounters in every area LESS difficult. I think that in general, "monolithic" encounters composed entirely of one sort of enemy should have an upper cap on their difficulty that should rarely be exceeded. If it is exceeded, there'd better be some damn good loot there. Ideally, PoE's wilderness areas should receive BG1-style NPC party encounters with interesting loot, and that should be the "difficulty spike" in every area that the player spends a lot of time cracking. Defeating these encounters should perhaps grant some experience points as well.

As far as loot goes, it's not really that PoE's loot selection is bad, but loot placing should be made more unique, so you might need to go to a specific place in the world and beat a hard encounter to find the only free Fine Rapier in the early game, or whatever.

But even without fancy NPC enemies, I think some relatively minor tweaking of existing encounters could make PoE/PotD a better-paced experience. Of course, I imagine that as I progress in the game and my characters become more powerful, I might reach a point where this pacing issue sorts itself out naturally, though at the expense of difficulty across the board.
You mean quality is more important than quantity of encounters? HERESY!
 

Mangoose

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No, but seriously. Secondary to AI, combat in MANY games could be improved by smart encounter design. Even DA:O was great when you faced a clone of your party, where you had to fight a fighter + mage + healer + rogue (I don't remember the fight, just generalizing here).

There's actually one idea that I forgot a long time ago. The concept is of an RPG where the focus is a rival party you have to race towards an objective. Often you will butt heads with them. (AKA You and Gary in Pokemon Lol). That was more of a procedural idea...

But again, seriously. Shit goes down when you actually have to think about how to deal with a combination of enemies/classes/what-have-you, versus setting up a "standard formation" to deal with something like a 6-orc-encounter.

You guys have great ideas. But I think in general it's rather simple. Make an encounter with one of each class in the enemy party. Watch shit go down (your party going down).
 

prodigydancer

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Holy shit, how do i make you understand just the level of shittyiness this crap has. it is close to the single most agravating and useless piece of shit i have ever seen. AD&D would have been a better alternative, yes, but so would have been almost ANY other system ever..
And that's why people dismiss your point of view: you go overboard. PoE's is certainly not the worst combat system we've seen. It's definitely better than SRR/SRD and WL2 "choose between shoot or overwatch, repeat X times, wait for your next turn" formula. It's not worse than D:OS where scant few encounters were memorable and where we spammed the same (low AP cost) abilities in every fight from level 5 till level 20.

Copy pasta enemies arent really an issue, they are a bit tasteless but its not the problem with poe. Fighting anything in this game is the same, THAT is the problem. Shadows those fungui things and vampires being the exception.
Now that's true. I understand that Sawyer hates immunities and hard counters but so far he's failed to offer a working alternative. His systems design favors bruteforce solutions: if at first you don't succeed, apply more of the same. Hard disables being too easily accessible don't help either (and again it's the same in D:OS where you can CC almost anything to death).
 

Ziem

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It's not worse than D:OS
130.gif
 

ZagorTeNej

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Make an encounter with one of each class in the enemy party. Watch shit go down (your party going down).

It's not that simple, you need to improve their target, ability and gear selection. PoE doesn't really lack party-vs-party/hand-placed fights (I mean there could be more of them but they're there), they just don't play out differently in practice than facing a pack of wolves or lions.
 

prodigydancer

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Your argument is so convincing, I don't know what to say. Are you a fucktard who believes that millions of shit-eating flies can't be wrong?

Calling RK47 for his ridiculous combos.
Emergent gameplay, I know. But there's a difference between what's possible and what's necessary. Face it, you can beat D:OS using about ten abilities, the same ones in practically every fight. Since almost everything is CC+damage you just use whatever gives you more CC for less AP cost. Why bother with optimal tactics when nothing can hurt you anyway?
 

Mangoose

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Calling RK47 for his ridiculous combos.
Emergent gameplay, I know. But there's a difference between what's possible and what's necessary. Face it, you can beat D:OS using about ten abilities, the same ones in practically every fight. Since almost everything is CC+damage you just use whatever gives you more CC for less AP cost. Why bother with optimal tactics when nothing can hurt you anyway?
Uh, maybe you can try fighting more difficult encounters with higher level enemies, so that you can't just spam the same abilities?
 

Ziem

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Emergent gameplay, I know. But there's a difference between what's possible and what's necessary. Face it, you can beat D:OS using about ten abilities, the same ones in practically every fight. Since almost everything is CC+damage you just use whatever gives you more CC for less AP cost. Why bother with optimal tactics when nothing can hurt you anyway?
.. and somehow using these ~10 abilities is still more fun than whatever poe has to offer
i wonder why.. maybe its because the players choices have an actual impact on gameplay?
 

prodigydancer

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Uh, maybe you can try fighting more difficult encounters with higher level enemies, so that you can't just spam the same abilities?
And how would that be fundamentally different? Longer, yes. More interesting, no. Because disables still work most of the time if you invest enough points in your class primary stat. Also if you're a completionist, you start outleveling content in D:OS before you're halfway through Act 2. Again, pretty much like in PoE. :)

D:OS combat = great ideas + lackluster implementation. PoE combat = solid implementation + lack of ideas. Pick your poison. People who praise Larian's mechanics are those who cannot see past the novelty factor.
 
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Shevek

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Make an encounter with one of each class in the enemy party. Watch shit go down (your party going down).

It's not that simple, you need to improve their target, ability and gear selection. PoE doesn't really lack party-vs-party/hand-placed fights (I mean there could be more of them but they're there), they just don't play out differently in practice than facing a pack of wolves or lions.

Many encounters (even the Dyrford Ruins) have multiple classes of enemies. The base design is often alright but the enemy AI does not use their abilities to good enough effect at times. If more encounters had enemies like the druids you run into with the shambling mound pets that spam all kicks of spells and knockdowns, etc, then challenge would go up.

Still, with all the xp they give the player, encounter design may not be the biggest offender here. You can breeze through on PotD by the last leg of the game in part because your accuracy, defense and hp are so high (I find that using IE mod to reduce xp by 25% improves things significantly with regards to this).

Also, part of this is perception. Many such encounters are often bounties that many may not see as a true part of the world. If the bounties were all placed on or near the critical path (rather than spawning when activated) and you simply turned in the heads upon aquiring (and bulding the warden's lodge), then that would improve the feel of many areas I think. This would be like the random adventuring party you could run into in the Sewers under the temple district in BG2 or the epic knife thrower in BG1, etc.

As an aside, I am curious if grazes could be changed to do 1/3 or even 1/4 damage and duration etc instead of 1/2. That would further penalize brute force tactics and promote the use of a wider set of abilities to exploit enemy weakness, etc. Such a change might further highlight varying enemy defenses and improve the general feel of encounters.
 

Mangoose

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Uh, maybe you can try fighting more difficult encounters with higher level enemies, so that you can't just spam the same abilities?
And how would that be fundamentally different? Longer, yes. More interesting, no. Because disables still work most of the time if you invest enough points in your class primary stat.
Have you not heard of Resistances, Saving Throws... Immunities, even? What if they kill your CC guy(s) quicker/immediately because they do more damage? What if, because abilities have level requirements, they have CC abilities that you don't have ... Like Charming half your party? What if they can Teleport YOU... Into Lava lol?

But seriously, do you not know that higher level enemies probably have higher Resistances, Saving Throws, etc.? "Disables still work most of the time" my ass.

Edit: Oh, and your party will have lower Resistances, Saving Throws, etc., which means their CCs are going to fuck you up more than your CCs towards them.

Edit 2: What if you're doing a boss fight while underleveled? I suppose you are right that "disables work most of the time"... against you. :lol:

---

D:OS combat = great ideas + lackluster implementation.

I'm really curious if you just spam something like "Blitz Bolt" at a single enemy, or uses "Rain" and then casts "Blitz Bolt" at a puddle to stun a bunch of enemies. And then teleports a mage into that puddle. And then uses the Wet factor to Freeze enemies easier.

Also if you're a completionist, you start outleveling content in D:OS before you're halfway through Act 2.
If you play DOS as a completionist, you're an idiot. Walk in Shadows, Tactical Retreat, Teleport Pyramid, and avoid boring trash fights.

Edit: I change my mind. If you play any game as a completionist (I don't mean in terms of quests, but in terms fighting every single trash encounter on a map), then you're a tedious retard. And, no, being a completionist is not cheesing the game, because you're sacrificing your own free time to overlevel shit. You can only complain about overleveling if you play a game "as it is meant to be played" and then still overlevel the enemies.
 
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Mangoose

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Let me explain to you the weaknesses of DOS:

  • Really limited (hybrid) builds because a lot of stuff doesn't synergize well (e.g. due to Attributes & Abilities)
  • Bad balance between skills. (However, that doesn't mean the optimal skills can't be used in different manners and combinations.)
  • I guess you can add bad balance between Talents, also.
  • Bad loot/gear progression.
  • Below average AI.
  • Too much combat vs. quests as the game progresses.
  • Cooldowns, lol. And lack of mana or other resource management.

I don't remember the rest but there are a couple more.
 

prodigydancer

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Have you not heard of Resistances, Saving Throws... Immunities, even?
And? What's your point? In PoE enemies also have saves and instead of resistances they have DR. High DR isn't very different from immunity for practical purposes.

What if they kill your CC guy(s)
I don't know, it never happened.

You can remove elemental surfaces.

Anyway, what are you trying to prove here? That when you're underleveled enough, enemies in D:OS can sometimes rape you if you're unlucky with rolls? Wow, I'm impressed. Now speed through Act 2 in PoE and try fighting Ogre Druids in Stormwall Gorge on PotD at level 6.

Edit: I change my mind. If you play any game as a completionist (I don't mean in terms of quests, but in terms fighting every single trash encounter on a map), then you're a tedious retard.
In other words: "it's not shitty design - your playstyle is wrong."
:updatedmytxt:
 
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Lhynn

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And that's why people dismiss your point of view: you go overboard. PoE's is certainly not the worst combat system we've seen.
Im not talking bout the combat, im talking about the character system. The combat is fine, how it ends up playing out isnt.
They dismiss it because they cant really give me a satisfactory answer, ive yet to see anyone in the codex pass up on the opportunity to prove someone wrong.

It's definitely better than SRR/SRD
Nope, it actually isnt, tho SRR character system wasnt very good it at least made for varied gameplay and allowed for interesting encounter design.

and WL2 "choose between shoot or overwatch, repeat X times, wait for your next turn" formula.
Maybe, feats are making it into the game tho, well see how that changes the gameplay. I didnt even play wl2 past the beta tho, wasnt interested, so i cant really judge it. But if among the best things you can say its "at least it wasnt THAT BAD" then i guess you already sort of see where im coming from.

It's not worse than D:OS where scant few encounters were memorable and where we spammed the same (low AP cost) abilities in every fight from level 5 till level 20.
D:OS had a shitty character system, but the combat in that game was stellar. The character system didnt have anything fundamentally wrong with it, it just went to shit at higher levels and gave you the coolest powers too soon. Its definitely workable and fixable.

Now that's true. I understand that Sawyer hates immunities and hard counters but so far he's failed to offer a working alternative. His systems design favors bruteforce solutions: if at first you don't succeed, apply more of the same. Hard disables being too easily accessible don't help either (and again it's the same in D:OS where you can CC almost anything to death).
Well, thats the problem with his character system, it doesnt work, it just doesnt and it systematically ruins every other system in the game, thats a hell of a lot more destructive that the systems ive quoted. Its too restrictive, too limited. Impossible to fix.
 

prodigydancer

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Nope, it actually isnt, tho SRR character system wasnt very good it at least made for varied gameplay and allowed for interesting encounter design.
Are you for real? In SRR every encounter could be cheesed by sticking to the nearest cover and abusing overwatch at your leisure. In SRD they added some fights where time works against you but time limits are just crutches.

I didnt even play wl2 past the beta tho, wasnt interested, so i cant really judge it.
Well, I think you've lost much. Combat isn't everything and story-wise LA is better than Arizona in WL2.
 
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Mangoose

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Have you not heard of Resistances, Saving Throws... Immunities, even?
And? What's your point? In PoE enemies also have saves and instead of resistances they have DR. High DR isn't very different from immunity for practical purposes.
I'm not sure when I talked about PoE saves and DR. Pretty sure I only talked about whether or not you use only 10 abilities in DOS, not that DOS is more complex or less complex than POE.

You can remove elemental surfaces.
Well, duh, but that means you're using more than the same 10 abilities every encounter.

I don't know, it never happened.
Have fun when your CC guy gets Charmed. That motherfucker.

Anyway, what are you trying to prove here? That when you're underleveled enough, enemies in D:OS can sometimes rape you if you're unlucky with rolls? Wow, I'm impressed. Now speed through Act 2 in PoE and try fighting Ogre Druids in Stormwall Gorge on PotD at level 6.
Um. I'm discussing exactly what I said in the beginning.
Mangoose said:
Uh, maybe you can try fighting more difficult encounters with higher level enemies, so that you can't just spam the same abilities?
To which you replied
you]And how would that be fundamentally different? Longer said:
That when you're underleveled enough, enemies in D:OS can sometimes rape you if you're unlucky with rolls?

Again, I'm not sure why you're referring to PoE.

In other words: "it's not shitty design - your playstyle is wrong."
Well... Firstly, D:OS is chock full of ways to avoid combat and play unorthodox. To the point where it's almost an adventure game. Creative exploration is the name of the game. Well, creativity in general.

Secondly, I never said completionism is wrong. I just said it's retarded.

I don't remember the rest but there are a couple more.
Not a systems thing, but DOS had really shitty writing
Eh. I'm ambivalent. Main story, yes. Side quests were decent as long as you didn't expect the super-serious.
 

Cadmus

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So now PoE has a better combat system than D:OS? You're like that retarded cocksucker who claimed that Dark Souls combat was shit because it was "twitchy and you had to learn enemy patterns".
 

hell bovine

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Anyway, what are you trying to prove here? That when you're underleveled enough, enemies in D:OS can sometimes rape you if you're unlucky with rolls? Wow, I'm impressed. Now speed through Act 2 in PoE and try fighting Ogre Druids in Stormwall Gorge on PotD at level 6.

The ogre druids are from a boutny from some cave (not sure where), I think. The stormwall druids, which spam the lightning storm (or used to, I don't remember what patch it was when I played it), can be defeated by throwing that level 2 confusion spell, which a level 6 wizard should have enough of.

Edit: not sure about this, because combat in PoE was not very memorable, but I dimly recall that because this spell made the druids "green circled", it also caused them to get fried with their own area spells.
 
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Lhynn

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Higher numbers in the monster sheet arent going to improve PoEs combat ffs, if it was as simple as that no one would give a shit.
 

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