Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Davaris]

Very small teams are a possible way out, since the culture at big companies has become toxic. Either a graphics style that costs next to nothing to make that also looks good must be invented, or players have to get over their graphics whoring. Graphics is why games cost so much to make and the high costs are why compromises are made to attract retards.

Wrong. It's marketing.

Its marketing in that there aren't enough people like you, to make profit on games that have teams so large they extend over the horizon. Retards out number you.

 

[DavidBVal]

Someone needs to remind Tim that numbers are sexy. I am sure deep inside he knows.

Spoiler

 

[Excidium II]

Someone needs to remind Tim that numbers are sexy. I am sure deep inside he knows.

Spoiler

P. sure the only thing Tim Cain finds sexy is a hairy man spreading asscheeks.

 

[Roguey]

P. sure the only thing Tim Cain finds sexy is a hairy man spreading asscheeks.

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

P. sure the only thing Tim Cain finds sexy is a hairy man spreading asscheeks.

Keep in mind he worked on South Park: The Stick of Truth, and there's a level in it that takes place inside a man's anus. I wonder if he had any input with that or what he thought about it as he was working on it.

 

[Excidium II]

P. sure the only thing Tim Cain finds sexy is a hairy man spreading asscheeks.

Keep in mind he worked on South Park: The Stick of Truth, and there's a level in it that takes place inside a man's anus. I wonder if he had any input with that or what he thought about it as he was working on it.

His husband also works @ Obsidian so the idea probably rose on the workplace.

 

[Excidium II]

P. sure the only thing Tim Cain finds sexy is a hairy man spreading asscheeks.

Well we know he likes geometry.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Someone needs to remind Tim that numbers are sexy. I am sure deep inside he knows.

I could get behind this idea.

 

[Murk]

well, fuck

>;(

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah keep putting the public faces of game developers on a pedestal.

 

[Telengard]

Gotta be a conspiracy from the people in charge keeping ya all down, huh? And not the fact that you all bought Dragon Age and voted it GOTY and not Knights of the Chalice?

As I've said before, it's all quite simple really. If you all want another D&D game, go out and make KotC a million seller. Doesn't at all have to be another 20 million Skyrim, just make it a million-er. Hell, if you got its numbers up to even half a mil, the industry would come sniffing around right quick, because they can smell when there's real money to be made.

But instead, you all like to talk a good game and say you'd buy KotC if it was good, but then claim that Skyrim is trash and yet buy it and put 500 hours in it, and then complain about how horrible that game is and how nobody makes D&D inspired games anymore. So, you'll all buy things you call trash like Skyrim and Dragon Age: Origins, but you won't buy things you call trash like KotC? Well, the industry hears you, loud and clear. More specifically, it hears how you spend your wallet. If you all say you're tired of how the RPGs are and how you'll buy any D&D-like game that comes along, but when one actually comes along then you don't, and instead buy and love Dragon Age: Origins, and then you say you won't buy Skyrim and the Codex Steam pictures very much shows otherwise - well, the industry hears you. And so it makes the games you really want, in that darkest, most secret part of your heart. The part that would so much rather be wandering around a Medieval-Lite town playing House with their dollies than going on strategic adventures to kill and to loot.

Because when it comes right down to it, if you can't even be bothered to show the industry that they're wrong by making a KotC register on the bestseller list at a time when there aren't any other games on the market like it, why should the industry bother either?

 

[Excidium II]

Gotta be a conspiracy from the people in charge keeping ya all down, huh? And not the fact that you all bought Dragon Age and voted it GOTY and not Knights of the Chalice?

As I've said before, it's all quite simple really. If you all want another D&D game, go out and make KotC a million seller. Doesn't at all have to be another 20 million Skyrim, just make it a million-er. Hell, if you got its numbers up to even half a mil, the industry would come sniffing around right quick, because they can smell when there's real money to be made.

But instead, you all like to talk a good game and say you'd buy KotC if it was good, but then claim that Skyrim is trash and yet buy it and put 500 hours in it, and then complain about how horrible that game is and how nobody makes D&D inspired games anymore. So, you'll all buy things you call trash like Skyrim and Dragon Age: Origins, but you won't buy things you call trash like KotC? Well, the industry hears you, loud and clear. More specifically, it hears how you spend your wallet. If you all say you're tired of how the RPGs are and how you'll buy any D&D-like game that comes along, but when one actually comes along then you don't, and instead buy and love Dragon Age: Origins, and then you say you won't buy Skyrim and the Codex Steam pictures very much shows otherwise - well, the industry hears you. And so it makes the games you really want, in that darkest, most secret part of your heart. The part that would so much rather be wandering around a Medieval-Lite town playing House with their dollies than going on strategic adventures to kill and to loot.

Because when it comes right down to it, if you can't even be bothered to show the industry that they're wrong by making a KotC register on the bestseller list when there any other games on the market like it, why should the industry bother either?

I'm sure the RPG Codex is being tracked to direct market trends. The fuck is the kind of point you are trying to make here.

A proper CRPG will never sell that much. There isn't a million people interested in playing CRPG.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Seems that the vast majority of butthurt posters in these 16 pages didn't even have the patience to watch the video and understand what Tim was saying.

Which is extremely ironic because he touched upon that very aspect of psychology and its effect on game design.

 

[Sensuki]

Et tu,Tim?

Or rather Tu ay, Timmay?

 

[Murk]

I finished watching the video while stuffing my face, and while the first few parts seem initially disheartening... it all makes sense, sort of.

I like the complexity and difficulty, but if his goal is to sell more copies... then yeah, that won't help him. Which is unfortunate, but then I had no real expectations of bigger dev groups making games I like after the kickstarter hopes turned out to be mostly disappointing (to me, anyway).

It sucks, but then I spent the last decade basically just replaying old games anyway, so I guess not much changes for me.

 

[Fenix]

The problem with heroes is that time and reality always brings them down.

The problem is that there are no live heroes. True hero is dead. If he is alive, then he is idol, and we all know what "do not make yourself an idol" mean.

The best games of bygone days already did various things well. Instead of building upon this (trying to fix the weakpoints and slowly improving the strengths if possible) people try to re-invent the wheel constantly with new but completely derivative settings, goofy mechanics noone asked for, boring filler shit in much greater amounts than we had in the past (mostly), poor design decisions when it comes to world size vs. actual content vs scope of the game, camera perspective and controls vs what sort of game it actually is and what have you.

The reason is in cultural gap between generations.
Normally old generation should transfer, share it experience with new no matter in which field.
But somethimes gap between them so big, that more right word is alienation.
This mean that new generation lost part of cultural baggage, cultural experience that cost so much to accumulate.
I'm fairly sure it is man-maide process, I mean current scale of it, when every new generation feels like absolutely alien people from outlands landed from spaceships or dimensional portals and substituted normal youngsters.
This mechanism allow to easily reduce any civilization from any level to stright middle age.

Whatever, this is just a thought I had earlier for how you would make an RPG more friendly if you really had to, I can't even begin to understand the thought process of turning attributes into triangles to "make it easier".

You see, problem is if people like TC start to talk about it it mean it is common place in gamedev or will be like that in near future.
He isn't some lonely weirdo from nowhere, he has reputation.
And I'm sure that as all bad things, this idea has vetality like weed, and if first concepts are poor, later on it could be improved in its perverted way.

Or else we need some new genre names so we're not associated with LARPers anymore

They need this name - storytellers, imaginators. Don't know what larpers mean too. Sound is unpleasant, like pile of shit that drop on concrete.

The problem isn't the traps themselves, it's that games with less and less of that kind of extreme don't have the other extreme, overpowered builds that stand out from the rest and are rewarding and fun to discover.

Exactly.
Role-playing system for PoE was designed in a way it was focused on mass of players (and people) that I could call Mr Mediocrity.
It is a system I can describe in a word "averaged" - no loss, but no prize either.
I can bet my testicles that it wan't only business decision, but there was also some kind of ethics, "moral choice" - that's how those who did it perceived this decision lol.
I know that western type of education system is cater to same people - it is focuse on Mr Ms Mediocrity, which maybe was a Noble goal once (or it always was a folding screen in neoliberal strategy), but today consequences are visible with the naked eye - those who above mediocrity, who on middle and exellent level they were thrown overboard on every level of society, while system spawn more and more Mr Mediocrity.
So I'm sure Sawyer feels he is a saint himself, or pick a better seqular word.
He is so progressive, I think he feel so good because he favored all the orphaned and needy lol.
The devil's trap slammed shut.

PoE was horribly unbalanced and full of trap builds and overpowered builds. It's just that combat was also very easy so it generally didn't matter.

Didn't played it much, but as far as I know there are no trap choices for sane man.
You could assign statpoints in random manner - anyway your party will fix this, and even character like that could be useful with all buffs.

But Fallout was full of trap builds, most sensible RPG character types are borderline useless in Fallout and will make you struggle through the game. Sure finishing it will be possible but it will be frustrating.

It wasn't.
Games I played before Fallout, which prepared me for it - Prince of Persia, Alone in the Dark, X-Com, Duck Tales and Felix the Cat.
Oh, and Battle City!
Point it - normal man without mental problem could win game without problem.
For retardd it WAS full of trap builds, like everyday life when htay dosn't sure where to put a spoon - it a mouth or in the ass.

-Dumb musclehead - will loose out on exp rewards due to low intelligence, and struggle in combat because of low agility
-Handyman with lot of technical skills - almost totally useless
-Stealthy thief/assassin type - most of his skills will never be useful for anything, but won't be as bad in combat due to high agility alone
-Brainy scientist using futuristic weapons - his science skills will almost never be useful and he won't get energy weapons until very late in the game
Sure most of this builds can be made functional but only by making them more similar to the nimble, smart gunslinger-diplomat which is the dominant character archetype. Notice that the problem of trap builds can be solved without dumbing down the game as evidenced by many of the titles released later. For example in Underrail most of the above archetypes would be perfectly fine.
This is a difference between allowing bad builds and providing players with trap-options.

Only retard will make a builds, that have no means of offence, when game clearly stated from begining that Fallout's everyday life is a constant struggle.
And in Underrail you have a lot of trap builds - try PSI with Con 4 and no stealth.

While I love a great story (PST is my favorite game), the games I spend the most time playing are those that have amazing and addictive gameplay, and interesting character creation to fuel my addiction of creating new and interesting characters.

Exactly my case. I'm playing roguelikes last 5 years, that's where gameplay's left.
And btw, after Wicher 3 was awarded, and not Fallout 4, I feel we lost "the last of the Mohicans" of gameplay - yeah, it was ugly, it was brainless. but there was gameplay.
For example I'm trying to play F4 now. I chose F4 anf NOT W3, because I can't see there gameplay at all, good story yeah, voiceover and all that, but not a gameplay.

Also about Fallout 4 and triangles.
In character creation menu, there is one triangle actually, when you set figure type of your character.
It is simple process, very descriptive ? easy to control and much faster then with NUMBERS.
The only drawback - it's it good for presenting information, but horrible for feedback and analysis.

That's my main concern - new generation is a little retarded (in realiry it is mutilated by modern education system), and they are can not cope with complex games (even that RPG isn't that complex).
So instead of trying tolift them up a little, devs invent GEOMETRIC FIGURES.
Which lead to next generation of gamers nad people who will be evem more brainless and are incapable of more or less complex brain activity in abstract manner, because games that are more complex than Supermario Bros and players are in those relationships in which there are a knife and grindstone.

 

[Telengard]

Gotta be a conspiracy from the people in charge keeping ya all down, huh? And not the fact that you all bought Dragon Age and voted it GOTY and not Knights of the Chalice?

As I've said before, it's all quite simple really. If you all want another D&D game, go out and make KotC a million seller. Doesn't at all have to be another 20 million Skyrim, just make it a million-er. Hell, if you got its numbers up to even half a mil, the industry would come sniffing around right quick, because they can smell when there's real money to be made.

But instead, you all like to talk a good game and say you'd buy KotC if it was good, but then claim that Skyrim is trash and yet buy it and put 500 hours in it, and then complain about how horrible that game is and how nobody makes D&D inspired games anymore. So, you'll all buy things you call trash like Skyrim and Dragon Age: Origins, but you won't buy things you call trash like KotC? Well, the industry hears you, loud and clear. More specifically, it hears how you spend your wallet. If you all say you're tired of how the RPGs are and how you'll buy any D&D-like game that comes along, but when one actually comes along then you don't, and instead buy and love Dragon Age: Origins, and then you say you won't buy Skyrim and the Codex Steam pictures very much shows otherwise - well, the industry hears you. And so it makes the games you really want, in that darkest, most secret part of your heart. The part that would so much rather be wandering around a Medieval-Lite town playing House with their dollies than going on strategic adventures to kill and to loot.

Because when it comes right down to it, if you can't even be bothered to show the industry that they're wrong by making a KotC register on the bestseller list when there any other games on the market like it, why should the industry bother either?

I'm sure the RPG Codex is being tracked to direct market trends. The fuck is the kind of point you are trying to make here.

A proper CRPG will never sell that much. There isn't a million people interested in playing CRPG.

I was answering the last 5 pages of people saying the only reason the industry isn't making real RPGs is because of SJWs controlling the industry in order to keep them down. Codexers stating that when they can't even be bothered to put their money where their mouth is when a D&D-like game actually arrives and lands alone on the market during the pre-Kickstarter era, when there's nothing else like it around. And then they instead buy Dragon Age: Origins.

In other words, stop trying to find scapegoats to blame, and instead look in the mirror. The industry's prime motivator is greed. And if you can't even be bothered to sate their greed by buying and promoting your stated favorite style of rpg when one finally arrives, and instead you give an AWARD to the style of game that you all call decline, then that's pretty much the end of the line.

If the uber rpg nerd Codex won't even put their money where their mouth is, then who out there is going to buy these games you all supposedly want so bad? No one, that's who.

And to that point, that's why VD - very smartly - planned for 50,000 in sales, not 500,000. Because that's what's left of the real rpg market, after even Codexers stopped caring about the genre.

 

[Excidium II]

I'm sure a website with about ~100 active users has a lot of influence.

Also KOTC was banal shit boring.

 

[Fenix]

I was answering the last 5 pages of people saying the only reason the industry isn't making real RPGs is because of SJWs controlling the industry in order to keep them down. Codexers stating that when they can't even be bothered to put their money where their mouth is when a D&D-like game actually arrives and lands alone on the market during the pre-Kickstarter era, when there's nothing else like it around. And then they instead buy Dragon Age: Origins.

It is emotions.
You trying to put [fault] from ill head to healthy head.

Also KOTC was banal shit boring.

Yeah, 3 classes? No thanks.

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

If you all want another D&D game, go out and make KotC a million seller. Doesn't at all have to be another 20 million Skyrim, just make it a million-er. Hell, if you got its numbers up to even half a mil, the industry would come sniffing around right quick, because they can smell when there's real money to be made.

How could it possibly sell that well when the developer won't put it on Steam? No game will ever sell a million copies if the only way to purchase it is off some Web 1.0 Geocities backwater site that belongs in the 90s. Old school CRPG gameplay is well and good, but your distribution platform should at least keep up with the times if you want to have any sort of credibility. Cleve had the right idea to take advantage of Steam's Greenlit while it still exists; KotC should do the same.

 

[Excidium II]

That autist shouldn't be trusted with money anyway.

 

[Grauken]

Cleve comes up as the sane one, first time for everything, but you're quite right

 

[Telengard]

I'm sure a website with about ~100 active users has a lot of influence.

If we take the uber rpg nerd Codex as the core fanbase of rpgs that will spend a lot of money on rpgs, then their purchases are indicative of where the core fanbase is going. Thus, if even the core fanbase abandons something, that something is pretty much done.

Also KOTC was banal shit boring.

Which is why I said: Codex claims over and over that Skyrim and Dragon Age: Origins are trash, yet those games are trash that they buy. While KotC the Codex states is also trash (or banal shit boring, as the case may be), but in contrast doesn't buy it. Yet somehow the Codex supposedly wants more D&D like games, and not more games like Skyrim and Dragon Age. How does that work, then? What lesson should the industry draw from your purchase history? That they should make more D&D-like games that even the uber rpg nerds of the Codex won't buy, much less the general public? Whyever should they draw that lesson? Especially when the uber rpg nerds of the Codex give an award to Dragon Age: Origins, and the general public ALSO likes that game. Why would they not make more games that both the uber rpg nerds and the general public likes and gives awards, rather than games that apparently no one likes and no one gives awards?

Or to put it as plainly as possible: If you all will buy Skyrim even if it trash, but you will buy D&D-like games only if they are good, what does that say about what type of game you really want more of?

 

[Excidium II]

Dude it doesn't matter who buys what. It's a niche genre. Nobody with the ability/genuine interest to make proper CRPGs will do it based on potential sales figures.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah keep putting the public faces of game developers on a pedestal.

D:OS 2's shaping up to be a fine compromise between mass market appeal and the classic RPG experience. Going to sell a million units, maybe more (unless the fatigue is real, gosh I hope not).

How could it possibly sell that well when the developer won't put it on Steam? No game will ever sell a million copies if the only way to purchase it is off some Web 1.0 Geocities backwater site that belongs in the 90s. Old school CRPG gameplay is well and good, but your distribution platform should at least keep up with the times if you want to have any sort of credibility. Cleve had the right idea to take advantage of Steam's Greenlit while it still exists; KotC should do the same.

GOG offered to put it up, and he said "Not unless you also put up my crappy Dune clone that nobody bought." I imagine it'd be the same deal with Steam.