Interview Tim Cain Talks Project Eternity at Eurogamer

[GaemzDood]

Tim Cain seems bent on these mature themes; Arcanum 2, just saying.

 

[tuluse]

Related to that, the in ability to set way points is annoying.

You could use waypoints in the IE games. I think it was as simple as holding the shift key down clicking on a destination.

Confusing phrasing on my part. That sentence was aimed at DA.

What I want: the ability to chain mixed orders together (which Bioware did with KOTOR)
What I expect at a minimum: way points of movement (which Bioware did with BG)
What DA had: none

 

[oldmanpaco]

Related to that, the in ability to set way points is annoying.

You could use waypoints in the IE games. I think it was as simple as holding the shift key down clicking on a destination.

Confusing phrasing on my part. That sentence was aimed at DA.

What I want: the ability to chain mixed orders together (which Bioware did with KOTOR)
What I expect at a minimum: way points of movement (which Bioware did with BG)
What DA had: none

I agree the chaining of orders is a much needed enhancement to the IE engine. I remember in some of the later mage battles I set the game to auto pause after each cast spell to make sure I didn't waste my time stop or alacrity spells.

 

[ghostdog]

encounter design is the one which will be the most difficult for Obsidian to tackle.

Exactly. Encounter design is even more difficult because it requires much more work and preparation, all through the game.

 

[Murk]

It is also extremely subjective, of course, and requires things like incorporating AI and "expected player proficiency" or some business.

Having said that, I'd really love a mod that turns all of ToEEs encounters into legit "by the skin of my teeth" fights against balanced parties, and reduces the clutter of trash mobs.

Actually, having just said that, I think I'd much rather a FRUA type module-creation-kit for ToEE. BUT ONE CAN ONLY DREAM

 

[Roguey]

Tim Cain will handle system mechanics and programming for Project Eternity.

Yes!

He's terrible at both so I don't see how this is a good thing. Fortunately Sawyer's there to fix all his bad ideas when it comes to the former.

Well maybe. It still had one huge flaw that the IE games had, but they actually fixed in KOTOR and then added back in. The inability to make a chain of orders than the characters will follow. Related to that, the inability to set way points is annoying.

As I recall, some Bioware developers said they couldn't add an action queue to DA because of the lack of rounds.

 

[suejak]

Tim Cain will handle system mechanics and programming for Project Eternity.

Yes!

He's terrible at both so I don't see how this is a good thing. Fortunately Sawyer's there to fix all his bad ideas when it comes to the former.

Exactly how I feel. I like Tim Cain, and I like the weightiness he adds to the project, but I don't feel like the guy has proven himself a solid designer of anything.

 

[Excidium]

Well maybe. It still had one huge flaw that the IE games had, but they actually fixed in KOTOR and then added back in. The inability to make a chain of orders than the characters will follow. Related to that, the inability to set way points is annoying.

As I recall, some Bioware developers said they couldn't add an action queue to DA because of the lack of rounds.

That's p. stupid, almost as bad as Bethesda games not having ladders because of AI issues.

 

[Roguey]

That's p. stupid, almost as bad as Bethesda games not having ladders because of AI issues.

The ladder thing is a legitimate issue though, getting AI to play nice with ladders requires a lot of effort (effort that could be expended elsewhere, zero-sum thing). Look at Alpha Protocol as an example of things going wrong, Divinity 2 as an example of "ignoring the problem" by simply having enemies ignore ladders and having your undead pet just teleport wherever you are.

 

[Murk]

It is astoundingly jaw dropping how such a simple thing like a ladder can pose such heinous threats to a game's internal validity.

Gothic 1 death drops ftw.

 

[deuxhero]

That's p. stupid, almost as bad as Bethesda games not having ladders because of AI issues.

The ladder thing is a legitimate issue though, getting AI to play nice with ladders requires a lot of effort (effort that could be expended elsewhere, zero-sum thing). Look at Alpha Protocol as an example of things going wrong, Divinity 2 as an example of "ignoring the problem" by simply having enemies ignore ladders and having your undead pet just teleport wherever you are.

Bethesda games have AI?


That said, I always disliked non-teleport ladders in non-platformers because with only one exception (Baten Kaitos: Origins, and even then your character just flew up to where the ladder went), ladder movement was always hideously slow compared to walking forward

 

[Aeschylus]

Interesting interview -- he makes some good points about RTwP combat and its limitations.

Obsidian seems to have a pretty active PR machine going on this one; they just got a writeup in Time magazine.

 

[Cynic]

"I like turn-based combat too," Cain remarked, when I told him I'd rather have that. "I like the tactics involved in the precise movement, orientation and use of abilities. But it can tend to be slow with a large party of character. Real-time-with-pause is faster and can feel more engaging, but I have found the abilities to be harder to use well. One reason for that is because many RTWP RPGs were made based on paper-and-pencil games that used turns, and their abilities were made for opponents that were not moving. I feel that RTWP can be an excellent combat model if the abilities are designed with respect to that model, and not converted from another system."

This was the best paragraph of the interview for me, he's saying all the right things (well short of saying, "fuck RTwP mang, TB is in!"). Really hoping they pull this off.

 

[suejak]

"I like turn-based combat too," Cain remarked, when I told him I'd rather have that. "I like the tactics involved in the precise movement, orientation and use of abilities. But it can tend to be slow with a large party of character. Real-time-with-pause is faster and can feel more engaging, but I have found the abilities to be harder to use well. One reason for that is because many RTWP RPGs were made based on paper-and-pencil games that used turns, and their abilities were made for opponents that were not moving. I feel that RTWP can be an excellent combat model if the abilities are designed with respect to that model, and not converted from another system."

This was the best paragraph of the interview for me, he's saying all the right things (well short of saying, "fuck RTwP mang, TB is in!"). Really hoping they pull this off.

Yeah, it's cool how he does the thinking part for Codexians. Nice answer.

 

[OSK]

Codexers don't think. They feel.

 

[Alex]

"I like turn-based combat too," Cain remarked, when I told him I'd rather have that. "I like the tactics involved in the precise movement, orientation and use of abilities. But it can tend to be slow with a large party of character. Real-time-with-pause is faster and can feel more engaging, but I have found the abilities to be harder to use well. One reason for that is because many RTWP RPGs were made based on paper-and-pencil games that used turns, and their abilities were made for opponents that were not moving. I feel that RTWP can be an excellent combat model if the abilities are designed with respect to that model, and not converted from another system."

This was the best paragraph of the interview for me, he's saying all the right things (well short of saying, "fuck RTwP mang, TB is in!"). Really hoping they pull this off.

Yeah, but Knights of the Chalice kind of show he isn't really right here. That game could have easily had 6 or even 8 PCs and the combat still wouldn't be overly long. And real time never made me more "engaged" either, so I have no idea where he is coming from.

 

[Cynic]

"I like turn-based combat too," Cain remarked, when I told him I'd rather have that. "I like the tactics involved in the precise movement, orientation and use of abilities. But it can tend to be slow with a large party of character. Real-time-with-pause is faster and can feel more engaging, but I have found the abilities to be harder to use well. One reason for that is because many RTWP RPGs were made based on paper-and-pencil games that used turns, and their abilities were made for opponents that were not moving. I feel that RTWP can be an excellent combat model if the abilities are designed with respect to that model, and not converted from another system."

This was the best paragraph of the interview for me, he's saying all the right things (well short of saying, "fuck RTwP mang, TB is in!"). Really hoping they pull this off.

Yeah, but Knights of the Chalice kind of show he isn't really right here. That game could have easily had 6 or even 8 PCs and the combat still wouldn't be overly long. And real time never made me more "engaged" either, so I have no idea where he is coming from.

I haven't played KotC but I definitely agree that RTwP is inferior. It CAN be sort of fun though if it is done correctly, and I think the only way to actually do it correctly is by taking the approach he's just described. Tailoring the skills to suit the system, not just expecting TB based systems to work with RTwP.

Although many Codexers may disagree, FFXII actually was a RTwP game, and the combat system was excellent. It worked well because of the gambit system which basically allowed you to pre program the actions of your characters which got pretty damn deep as you progressed through the game. A lack of an in built class system and over leveling killed the system sadly, but if played right it was incredibly fun. That game for me actually has the best RTwP combat ever done, probably followed by BG.

I think by engaging he means tense. RT provides a different kind of tension to TB. It's more of a "fuck fuck fuck!" tension rather than a..."hmmm I may be screwed here" tension. For popamole lovers the first kind is infinitely more appealing than the latter. While I prefer the second in almost every case, when done right the first can be a lot of fun also.

The fact that he is even approaching the subject in this kind of depth is encouraging. Whether he manages to pull it off remains to be seen.

 

[Mrowak]

"I like turn-based combat too," Cain remarked, when I told him I'd rather have that. "I like the tactics involved in the precise movement, orientation and use of abilities. But it can tend to be slow with a large party of character. Real-time-with-pause is faster and can feel more engaging, but I have found the abilities to be harder to use well. One reason for that is because many RTWP RPGs were made based on paper-and-pencil games that used turns, and their abilities were made for opponents that were not moving. I feel that RTWP can be an excellent combat model if the abilities are designed with respect to that model, and not converted from another system."

This was the best paragraph of the interview for me, he's saying all the right things (well short of saying, "fuck RTwP mang, TB is in!"). Really hoping they pull this off.

Yeah, but Knights of the Chalice kind of show he isn't really right here. That game could have easily had 6 or even 8 PCs and the combat still wouldn't be overly long. And real time never made me more "engaged" either, so I have no idea where he is coming from.

I haven't played KotC but I definitely agree that RTwP is inferior.

Ehh, no - at least not by definition. That a certain mechanics worked perfectly in some previous games, doesn't mean that by default it is the most amazingest of all. There is square fucktonne of games that failed hard in combat despite having turn based system. The greatest advantage of TB over RTwP is that (so far in games) it put greater emphasis on character's positioning. The greatest combat problem which TB has and RTwP does not is sequential attacks (let's say we have two knights that charge at each other, they do not have enough movement speed to pass the full distance from their starting positions, but can meet midway; in a typical TB system the knight with lower initiative will get to hit the one with the higher because the first one won't have enough movement speed to reach his opponent - a major logical fuckup augmented by the fact that the first knight's positioning is wrong).

Generally I think Codexers attach to much value to catchphrases "turn-based, old-school, (evil) quest compass." and so on, and do not see the bigger picture of things.

I think by engaging he means tense. RT provides a different kind of tension to TB. It's more of a "fuck fuck fuck!" tension rather than a..."hmmm I may be screwed here" tension. For popamole lovers the first kind is infinitely more appealing than the latter. While I prefer the second in almost every case, when done right the first can be a lot of fun also.

You are generalising. I enjoy TB and RTwP - largely for the same reasons. If done right they both can offer a degree of tactical depth, And both can be screwed up quite easily. Good TB should be tense as well - I really ought to anticipate my next move and go when enemy foils my plans in some way. ToEE was kinda weak at that (slow paced movement and totally slooooowish music), whereas Betrayal at Krondor or Knights of the Chalice achieved quite a success in this matter.

 

[Cynic]

I have not played a RTwP game that had combat that was close to being as good as any of the systems in top TB games. The ability to plan every move, one step at a time just means you have an innate ability to better plan and therefore play more intelligently.

So maybe my word shouldn't have been "definition" but honestly there hasn't been a RTwP system that has come close to being as good as well made TB systems. The most fun I've had with them has been in BG and FFXII, and if I compare these to say, ToEE and FFTactics, the combat just pales in comparison.

 

[octavius]

The greatest combat problem which TB has and RTwP does not is sequential attacks (let's say we have two knights that charge at each other, they do not have enough movement speed to pass the full distance from their starting positions, but can meet midway; in a typical TB system the knight with lower initiative will get to hit the one with the higher because the first one won't have enough movement speed to reach his opponent - a major logical fuckup augmented by the fact that the first knight's positioning is wrong).

Good point.
I like both turn based and RTwP. But with RTwP you get the advantage of simultaneity and thus a greater sense of realism and immersion, the cost being losing some control and large battles with lots of spell caster risk ending up as "clusterfucks".

But as I've said before I'm more worried about Obsidian managing/willing to do good encounter design, than I am about the actual combat engine.

I have not played a RTwP game that had combat that was close to being as good as any of the systems in top TB games. The ability to plan every move, one step at a time just means you have an innate ability to better plan and therefore play more intelligently.

So maybe my word shouldn't have been "definition" but honestly there hasn't been a RTwP system that has come close to being as good as well made TB systems. The most fun I've had with them has been in BG and FFXII, and if I compare these to say, ToEE and FFTactics, the combat just pales in comparison.

And if you compare the IE games with the Gold Box games?

 

[Mrowak]

I have not played a RTwP game that had combat that was close to being as good as any of the systems in top TB games. The ability to plan every move, one step at a time just means you have an innate ability to better plan and therefore play more intelligently.

Indeed - this is great advantage of turn based games - strategical gameplay. However, this merely means another mode of gameplay, not necessarily better than the other - your preference if you will. Where RTwP has potential to excel at (and it did in BG2 SCS2) is tactical gameplay - because tactics is when you just cannot anticipate every enemy move with minuite detail (e.g. this enemy's speed is 2 hexes per turn so if I stay away in 3 hex distance it's going to be fine) - like in real life.

So maybe my word shouldn't have been "definition" but honestly there hasn't been a RTwP system that has come close to being as good as well made TB systems. The most fun I've had with them has been in BG and FFXII, and if I compare these to say, ToEE and FFTactics, the combat just pales in comparison.

I think you are extrapolating faults of gameplay design consideration other than the system into RTwP. Nothing stops RTwP from allowing many varied options to the player - in fact even NWN2 SOZ had the very same options that are available in ToEE (with even more classes and skills), and even if we translated it into TB it wouldn't automatically make it better (both games have very poor encounter design).

 

[kris]

Turn-based. One thing I always felt about turn-based is that battles is and can be more engaging. In truth I feel that in a good turnbased game they battles should be few, but well made. They should all be like small games in themselves. All were you use positioning and different tactics to take down difficult opponents. (even if it works well even when it is not)

Rtwp. the biggest problem in rtwp is really something that is a problem in turn-based too. MOVEMENT. In rtwp you really need mechanics stopping characters from just running past each other (hit of opportunity and collusion detection). Archers should be able to impede movement on melee fighters and they shouldn't be able to run and shoot like they are using a gun.
another thing is that melee combat shouldn't be about just trading blows. IMO parry and using your shield and so on should be used more, I feel there is a good possibility to open up more tactical possbilities with stances and special attacks against special defenses.

What i miss most in both systems is weapons and armours that actually is different in how they work. Like how you use a hammer against plate armour and a staff is a better defensive weapon with a bonus against swords. Hell, even track hitpoints for shield and armour.

 

[Black]

the game does not track an alignment for the player.

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