Review TNO Reviews Neverwinter Nights 2

[SCO]

Keep on fighting the good fight!

Never forgive, never forget!

 

[bussinrounds]

The Neverwinter games are all about the modules.

Exactly. And NWN 1 is all about MP, because there's no party control.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

I still rank NWN 2 very high. Its a top ten RPG in my book.

Everything except the camera and the stupid plot is underrated. The NPCs and the character system were top notch.

I dont know why I bonded so well with the NWN 2 characters. They are typical Bioware tripe though Shandra will always stand out.

NWN 2 is BG 2 with better combat and a shitty camera.

 

[Relay]

NWN 2 is BG 2 with better combat and a shitty camera.

NWN2 is BG2 without memorable places like Athkatla, Trademeet, the Underdark and without dungeons like Watcher's Keep. That is to say, it's NO FUCKING BG2. NWN2 has a lot of trash mob but little actual content, none of the sidequests are as good as what you can find in BG2. And by better combat, you meant simplified combat. NWN2 won't let anyone actually die. A character in BG2 who took too much damage from something like a dragon (like, if you only had 5 or 10 hp before getting smacked) couldn't even be resurrected, you know.

And NWN2's npc are worse than the usual bioware tripe, sorry. BG2 had Jaheirra, Edwin, Minsc, Jan and antagonists like Irenicus, nwn2 had "stereotypical thief, dwarf, druid" down to the bone. NWN2 people are the result of someone taking the definition of races and classes as their only basis. They feel like robots, which is worse than the worst Bioware NPCs.

 

[Greatness]

NWN2 is for MotB. There are some good modules, but they are few and far between. When you do find one it's usually just the first "act", only a handful of hours long, and the authors have already given up on finishing it long ago.

I suppose the D&D character creation is good, but as far as I know there is no "Sword Coast Stratagems" equivalent mod to make use of your polished character builds.

 

[DarthBehemoth]

I thought NWN2 was a pretty solid game.
3/5

Pretty solid character gen. Lots of choices.
Story wasn't very good, but some stuff like the keep was fun I thought.
Average combat. People say the camera was bad but I don't remember.

I agree, though the camera managed to piss me off, to say the least

 

[Gord]

I love Neverwinter Nights 2. Fuck TNO. He can go TNO himself. Fucking TNO. Get a real name, you fucking fuck. So angry at you dissing my favorite game of all time.

My mother always told me to leave the thinking to the horses, because they have bigger heads, therefore I'm with the horse on this one.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

NWN2 is BG2 without memorable places like Athkatla, Trademeet, the Underdark and without dungeons like Watcher's Keep. That is to say, it's NO FUCKING BG2. NWN2 has a lot of trash mob but little actual content, none of the sidequests are as good as what you can find in BG2.

I found BG 1's areas and quest to be far more memorable than both games because they were less contrived. And after playing DA:O a game has to go well beyond for me to spank it for having trash mobs.

And by better combat, you meant simplified combat. NWN2 won't let anyone actually die. A character in BG2 who took too much damage from something like a dragon (like, if you only had 5 or 10 hp before getting smacked) couldn't even be resurrected, you know.

You lose death which was a simple spell cast/ spell buy strategy like in Soz and gain 3.5 stuff and AoO. Net gain for sure. NWN 2 didnt have as many cheap encounters. The Shadow Reavers were always beatable with the right tactics and the true name spell.

And NWN2's npc are worse than the usual bioware tripe, sorry. BG2 had Jaheirra, Edwin, Minsc, Jan and antagonists like Irenicus, nwn2 had "stereotypical thief, dwarf, druid" down to the bone. NWN2 people are the result of someone taking the definition of races and classes as their only basis. They feel like robots, which is worse than the worst Bioware NPCs.

Matter of opinion. I found the NWN 2 members to be less contrived though shallow. I can deal with shallow because people are shallow in real life. I just want natural characters and the NWN 2 characters were natural. Khelgar was someone who got his ass whooped by monks and wanted to become a monk. That is more natural than someone who has brain damage from a hamster landing on his head. The way you interacted with them discouraged reloads because you couldn't tell when you were influencing them. That was one area where MotB took a step back.

I prefered the Shadow Reavers to Irenicus. Thats a long story though.

 

[Roguey]

The only one I found mildly interesting was Bishop, the rest feel like they were created by some 13 year old fan fic writer.

That's our Avellone! He wrote all the companions you know.

By this persons standards pretty much every RPG is terrible, I can think of many excellent games which have these same kinds of flaws in abundance.

And what positives does it have to balance out its flaws? None, except character creation. And I can use an online character creator for that.

What would a game lose other than length, which doesn't matter if the game is boring anyway?

RPGs are "supposed" to be epic 50/75/100+ hour campaigns. If a MoW or MotB-length RPG were being sold for full price it'd get the AP/DS3 treatment (ie "The food is terrible and in such small portions!") It'd also run the risk of being a slog.

The way you interacted with them discouraged reloads because you couldn't tell when you were influencing them.

Actually you'd see the +/-1 in the combat log, reload away.

 

[Relay]

I found BG 1's areas and quest to be far more memorable than both games because they were less contrived.

BG1 : kill the kobolds in a mine, kill the hobgoblins
BG2 : search for the murderer in the bridge district, lose his track and coincidentally find him once you hit trademeet and discover he's a man who can wear other people skins.

You lose death which was a simple spell cast/ spell buy strategy like in Soz and gain 3.5 stuff and AoO. Net gain for sure. NWN 2 didnt have as many cheap encounters. The Shadow Reavers were always beatable with the right tactics and the true name spell.

BG2 had true death, which is not a spell cast away since you can't resurrect someone who died from a truly heavy hit (it happens when your character is low in HP and gets a truly heavy hit). It didn't happen often but it was a nice feature. And a peculiarity of the game engine made it so that letting someone die even when they could be resurrected was an annoyance since you had to take all their dropped inventory and juggle with the UI, it discouraged you from letting people die by making it a chore. In NWN2 there is no side effect to letting people "die" in battle, you never stop to think "shit it's boring" which means that you never pay much attention to it.

Matter of opinion. I found the NWN 2 members to be less contrived though shallow. I can deal with shallow because people are shallow in real life. I just want natural characters and the NWN 2 characters were natural. Khelgar was someone who got his ass whooped by monks and wanted to become a monk. That is more natural than someone who has brain damage from a hamster landing on his head.

Well I'd rather listen to Minsc than Khelgar as a character whose purpose is to let a bit of steam down in a party of otherwise serious people. Khelgar is boring as fuck. YAAARRR I'M A DWAAAAAARF I HATE ELVEEEEES !
And for some reason you chose to focus on them because comparing Jaheirra or Edwin to any NPC in NWN2 would bring shame.

The way you interacted with them discouraged reloads because you couldn't tell when you were influencing them.

There was no reason to reload in BG2 because there was no retarded influence systems, only "critical points" where if you did something that was truly out of character for someone in your party he got angry and left, or having a reputation incompatible with their alignment. And conflicts in your party in BG2 were far more interesting in their development, and really critical since they could kill each other, unlike NWN2 where they spend all their time shouting the most stereotypical fantasy sentences at each other. It was painful to look at Khelgar and Neehska. I wish I could have killed them both as soon as I saw them.. oh wait, this is the new school of RPGs, you can't kill people.

 

[laclongquan]

Minsc and boo is probabbly a little bit funnier than a fighting dwarf want to be an asskicking monk.

Jaheira? Sorry, the druids of both BG2 and NWN2 is nothing worth remembering about.

Edwin is also fun, esp with the tranny antic. overshadow that fire-loving Qara, or the witty fond-of-repartee Sand, anyday of the week.

 

[Relay]

Jaheira? Sorry, the druids of both BG2 and NWN2 is nothing worth remembering about.

Jaheira, unlike the elf druid in NWN2, is not solely defined by her class. I really liked her, she felt more down to earth and human-like compared to most druids. She's a druid, but that is not what makes her Jaheira.
On the other hand, Elanee, like most of the characters in NWN2, is a stereotypical druid and is absolutely obsessed by anything that has to do with druids. She doesn't care about anything else but. A pure complete annoyance. BG2 allowed you to kill any npc companion you didn't like and that is something that, if I was allowed to, I would have abused in NWN2 because most of the NWN2 cast deserves the fucking death sentence.

 

[TNO]

Ahn...should it be mentioned you can ask one of your bros to fight for you? It's not really needed as even talky characters should have enough firepower by that point of the game, and it doesn't change the fact that the trial still ends in combat either way, but it's there.

Yes, you're right. But that you can use one of your NPCs to fight the obligatory boss fight doesn't really sugar the pill that the entire trial stuff is irrelevant. (It should be noted the boss fight also uses a stupid "I'm invulnerable for X seconds" mechanic).

Also apologies for the jargon use.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

nwn2 the shittiest game made by obsidian





ohhh no wait there is stil dungeon siege3






fuck me forgot about alpha protocol






shit shit shit fucking storm of zehir


i gave it 3 out of 5. its worse than kotor2 and motb but better than rest obshidian stuff

 

[Stinger]

Dungeon Siege 3 had great combat mechanics and design unlike the NWN2 OC. And Alpha Protocol was a fun game in spite of its flaws...dunno what you're on about. Neither of those games are the utter bore that was NWN2 OC.

Pretty good review, reminded me just how boring the campaign was even if it's occasionally tongue in cheek about how cliched it is (I laughed once or twice), still, at least it led to MOTB.

 

[GreyViper]

The Neverwinter games are all about the modules.

Pretty much, but I can understand why many were pissed off when NWN2 was released. Since it was the shittiest mess I have ever seen, hell req specs for game were higher then they should have been. And lets not forget how installing MoTB broke OC by introducing game stopping bug. Also you had to instal some patches in specific order because some broke, gahh I get the shivers of thinking about these times. Now I dont have that many complaints, I have nice single click installer that has all the expansions and patches no problem with bugs. But man how long it took to get here, similar case with F02. Another issue I did have with NWN2 was also the graphics what with Oblivion released and the quality of some of the mod models compared to NWN2 was painful. I kind of guessed later art department wasn't Obsidian's strong side at that time.

 

[Sacculina]

I wish I could have killed them both as soon as I saw them.. oh wait, this is the new school of RPGs, you can't kill people.

Much as I hate to admit it--I didn't care for Minsc, Jaheira, Aerie, ... hell, anyone except Jan and Edwin--BG2 is the better game in every respect except character creation. But since you've invoked the 'new school', perhaps a better comparison would be with DA:O.

 

[Ruprekt]

There was nothing wrong with the nwn2 camera even without the expanions.

It would be annoying if, as with any free roaming camera, your PC at the time couldn't manage acceptable frame rates. But that's another issue.

 

[TNO]

I should (belatedly) thank the anonymous member of the Kodex Kontent Konsideration Kollective who informed me an earlier draft of this review sucked (and why it sucked), prompting me to rewrite it.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

BG1 : kill the kobolds in a mine, kill the hobgoblins
BG2 : search for the murderer in the bridge district, lose his track and coincidentally find him once you hit trademeet and discover he's a man who can wear other people skins.

Wild things in ordinary places are more memorable than the every day big stage battles. That’s the only way I can explain it. I remember the battles in BG 1 but not 2 because they were all about the conflict and not the setting or stage. I’ll never forget dueling a wizard in a brothel and all the charred ho collateral damage. I’ll never forget how when you challenge the Iron throne in the city you just walk into their place past their workers, walk upstairs and fight. It had a beautiful naturalness to it which stands out when compared to most of Biowares shit.

BG2 had true death, which is not a spell cast away since you can't resurrect someone who died from a truly heavy hit (it happens when your character is low in HP and gets a truly heavy hit). It didn't happen often but it was a nice feature. And a peculiarity of the game engine made it so that letting someone die even when they could be resurrected was an annoyance since you had to take all their dropped inventory and juggle with the UI, it discouraged you from letting people die by making it a chore. In NWN2 there is no side effect to letting people "die" in battle, you never stop to think "shit it's boring" which means that you never pay much attention to it.

Its basically SoZ with inventory drops. I don’t disagree with you, I’m just making the point the only difference is a spell… oh and drops.

Well I'd rather listen to Minsc than Khelgar as a character whose purpose is to let a bit of steam down in a party of otherwise serious people. Khelgar is boring as fuck. YAAARRR I'M A DWAAAAAARF I HATE ELVEEEEES !
And for some reason you chose to focus on them because comparing Jaheirra or Edwin to any NPC in NWN2 would bring shame.

I’ll take Shandra over Jaheirra. Shandra is one of my favorite NPCs ever. I can be a woman hater at times and this bitch Shandra is everything I love about the fairer sex. After having her barn burned down twice she went through a proper period of regret then accepted it then learned how to fight Spartan style with big shield and small sword. Didn’t complain and was ready to give her life. The voice acting and her maturation was a tough portrayal and they nailed it.

There was no reason to reload in BG2 because there was no retarded influence systems, only "critical points" where if you did something that was truly out of character for someone in your party he got angry and left, or having a reputation incompatible with their alignment. And conflicts in your party in BG2 were far more interesting in their development, and really critical since they could kill each other, unlike NWN2 where they spend all their time shouting the most stereotypical fantasy sentences at each other. It was painful to look at Khelgar and Neehska. I wish I could have killed them both as soon as I saw them.. oh wait, this is the new school of RPGs, you can't kill people.

In BG 2 influance is gained and lost through critical dialogue moments. You can fail the romance with Viconia just by telling her off once. Why would a Drow have such thin skin? With NWN 2 everything is more subtle and gradual.

 

[SCO]

Why not just do like Mysteries at Westgate and MoTB (to a point) did and add fewer combat situations that are in turn more interesting? What would a game lose other than length, which doesn't matter if the game is boring anyway?

That would require a complex and arresting combat system and mechanics (no-rest, very lethal AI, etc), and would make the idiots cry.

 

[Disconnected]

While the reviewer is spot-on with many of his criticisms (the filler combat did get irritating), I think he left out one of NWN2 greatest strengths: its character building system.

I can't decide if I agree or disagree. There's a solid & pretty massive core of junk in the character building that really doesn't do anything but create bloat. You know, the kind of "1=/=.999" stuff where there's differences at first glance, but at second glance it turns out the art of specialisation is mostly the tedium of overlap, not specialisation at all. You might be able to describe ten different kinds of Cleric in words, but in terms of the actual gameplay they're all the same.

Totally unlike, for example, Wizardry, or more recently Knights of The Chalice, or hell, even Eschalon, where you have far fewer apparent choices, but where all the ones you have make significant, even critical differences in terms of the way & your ability to play the games.

Then again, there really are a lot of choices that could have been game-changing, if NWN2s combat had had as or more complex sets of resolutions than, say, your typical NetHack encounter with a fucking Kobold. Unfortunately NWN2 opted to be the Isometric-with-shit-on-top equivalent of Gears of War, except without the aiming & ducking bits.

...

As for story, I know I've tried to play the OC at least three times. I've yet to make it past Chapter 1. Also, dear inept son & even more inept friend that I fucking hate & want to see dead, of course the two of you are the only ones who can go get the Very Important Thingy™. I'll explain why the fucking crowd militia and experienced adventures standing all around us doing nothing can't, just as soon as I'm done feeding your carcasses to the biped lizards.

Sorry, it's not as if I really mind football field sized plot holes & the like. But seriously, I'm not 6 years old and in awe of adults. If there's a gaping fucking maw of a hole somewhere, don't let me ask about it in some vain hope that a non-answer will make it all the more interesting for me. Like I said: vain hope. I don't fucking care how mysterious the the non-reason I got to do something. Or rather, I do. If it's a mysterious non-reason, the likelihood I've got better things to do is so far indistinguishable from 1.

OK, it's been a while since my last attempt, but it wasn't just the interface that irked the ever-loving fuck out of me in NWN2. IIRC the part that bothered me least was some goth sidequest thing, and... Yeah, not young enough to really find that shit funny either, though I could at least appreciate it probably would have been, if I was some suburban US teenager.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Hey, the goth quest was funny.

http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2/Update%2047/

If you haven't twigged what this whole sidequest is referencing is then you should put the mouse down now for your own safety because you're obviously an idiot.

Or not American.

The quest is, yes, referring to the big Satanist-scare of the 1980s, when people got really nervy about alt-culture teenagers wearing lots of black and pretending to worship Satan. It was all one big urban-legend, a middle-class horror story for big-c Christian parents to tell each other to make themselves feel special and endangered in their comfortable bourgeois lives.

D&D got hit pretty bad because it's fairly alt-culture to start with, plus it's full of socially-maladjusted nerds who might as well be Satanists for all their social graces. And it's full of references to demons, devils, and God knows what else.

Maybe now would be a good time to post that Jack Chick cartoon?

So this quest is a pretty funny inversion of reality; in fantasy-land, the scowling anti-social goths actually are murderous cultists hell-bent on destroying Small-Town American Values.

 

[Disconnected]

Hey, the goth quest was funny.

Like I said, I'm sure it was. But I'm not American. I couldn't guess what the context was, just that there was one. Indeed my vague assumptions about the context were so wrong I thought I was too old & foreign to get it. Turns out I'm exactly the right age, just too foreign. Only thing I knew about the American religious D&D hysteria while it went on, was the odd editorial in Dragon Magazine. Before the interwebs, I'd never even heard of Chick tracts.

 

[Oriebam]

Hey, the goth quest was funny.

Like I said, I'm sure it was. But I'm not American. I couldn't guess what the context was, just that there was one. Indeed my vague assumptions about the context were so wrong I thought I was too old & foreign to get it. Turns out I'm exactly the right age, just too foreign. Only thing I knew about the American religious D&D hysteria while it went on, was the odd editorial in Dragon Magazine. Before the interwebs, I'd never even heard of Chick tracts.

CK's born and raised in Brazil IIRC

AFAIK shit wasn't so bad here, sure there are some urban legends of people killing over RPG's and that card games are evil, but nothing like making a film about it or movements against it or the media taking it seriously...



















right?