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Interview ToEE silly questions and spanking answers on eToychest

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Volourn said:
The difference between me, and the Troika fanboys is that acoridng to them Troika (and espicially Mr. Cain) are Gods. They are not.
Tim Cain is not a God, he's the Supreme Fallout Commander :D *stands up and salutes*

Heck, I heavily criticize BIO when I dislike what they do.
Ok, that's fine, but you criticize for good reasons, why do you expect us to do so without one. We criticized Arcanum for combat and balance issues, but even with these issues Arcanum is still a far superior game then all other RPG-wannabes. I am not too crazy about the vampires game, but I will reserve my judgement till I play it. So what else should I criticize him for? For doing a classic TB game when everybody else doing RT? For taking pride in his work and answering a retarded question directly? I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of all the bs in the industry and I really appreaciate a direct and straight answer. What would you have said in this place?
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
Volourn I have read your arguments against Tim Cain in this interview and I must say I fail to reach the same conclusion as you. I don't see how you can view David Gaider's comments from an 'innocent' point of view while you manage to utterly misconstrue what Tim Cain had to say.

What he said is completely true - he's not trying to reinvent the wheel like so many other companies (cough*Bioware*cough) have tried to and failed miserably, I might add. It might hit a little close to home, that's true - but I just don't see the malice in his words. What's he's stating is that he doesn't have the same kind of arrogance as they do to create some 'hybrid system' nor does he even sink to bragging about it while making comparisons between NWN and some other loathsome piece of crap like David Gaider so graciously did with TOEE and POR2.
 

Sabotai

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
304
Volourn said:
Sabatoi: Why would I be defensive? I like the IE games, I find the combat fun and strategic; but I never said they are perfect.
Well, I thought the following point of you very defensive:
Volourn said:
3. He's whining because in his attempt to defend his game from the unwarranted attacks; he lashes out at the BIo, and BIS games. "My game is closer to dnd then theirs! Na, na, na!" That's pretty childish, imo.
As I stated in an above post it's like you feel you are being attacked by Tim Cain with his remark "I wanted to make a computer game based on D&D, not some hybrid system that I invented myself". The only slightly condenscending word I can discern in Tim Cain's statement is "some". But even them that's true because there are some shitty hybrid engines out there. But if you want to read in this a childish attack on other lesser DnD games, be my guest. That's what I find defensive.

You keep on saying RT with pause displease a lot of people; but history shows it seems to please a lot moe people than it fails to please. It seems to be me only harecore turn base or RT gamers would be the ones most turned off.
I never said anything like that. I'm not even talking about RT and TB. I'm talking about changing a lot of rules about a well tested system and hence making your own succesful hybrid. There are not a lot of games out there that have achieved this, as Vault Dweller pointed out in another thread.

As for NWN taking away from the party system. That has nothing to do with combat rules, or whatever.
As I stated above, I was talking about making changes in a thoroughly tested system in order to create you own hybrid. I wasn't talking about RT vs TB engines.

The example of party dynamics is IMO one of the many things BioWare changed in the DnD system which led to a screwed up game engine and hence gameplay. Including discipline is another and also the change from TB to RT.

I have to admit IMO the IE engine is the best effort up to date trying to achieve this "hybrid" state. I quite liked BG and PST and could live with the IE engine. But the thing I didn't like about the IE engine (and also discussed in several other threads) is the direction the IE games have steered CRPGs engines and CRPGs in general. One could argue that after Fallout, the IE engine opened the gates towards NWN with the Aurora engine and now Lionheart. In this respect I don't like the IE engine one bit.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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VD: That's right; you wait to judge to the new Vampire game; but BIO games you haven't played (KOTOR) are up for you to bash. I won't say anything more about the Vampire game as I've made my position clear on that game in other, more pertient threads.
How about criticing Mr. Cain's decision to go with the part alignment thing. No, I forgot, everyone defends it as a "new & improved' alignment sytem when it is basically a joke, and very anti dnd alignment rules. But, that's cool. Troika's implementating it so it must be good.
I'm not criticizing him for making a tb game; in fact I like the fact he's making a tb game. That is not the issue here. Once again, I'm not defending the qustioner as I think we'll all agree he's a dumbass. Please, BIO and BIS are as direct as they can be. You forget that unlike Mr. Gaider, and Mr. Sawyer who are just employees; Mr. Cains owns Troika so it's not like he;'ll be fired for publicly "overstepping" his bounds. How, would I handle it the question? Good question. Can't say for sure; but I would try to defend my design decisions without bashing the competition. Not that hard. Instead, he allowed the question to goad him into self defensive mode.

Exitium, probably for the same reason people here are seeing Mr. Cain's word as "innocent", and Mr. Gaider's words as an attack against TOEE and how it sucks like POR2 which he never said at all.

Bio has failed miserably? That's an odd thing to say - espicially consideirng a guy who seemed to enjoy IWD2 so much. Hmmm... It's now arrogance to take the dnd ruleset, and not apply them ina certain set limit? Interesting... Seriously, if every dnd game was plain old turn base; taht would get all samey; but to each their own. I like the fact that there are these two systems that both work for dnd in the computer environment. And, please, once again, Mr. Gaider didn't even imply that TOEE was utter crap. All he said was that TOEE, and POR2 are BOTH turn based which is completely and utterly fact. And, how exactly is that bragging? Hmmm.. I'm sorry "I make true dnd; the others (in reference to NWN & PST) are just wannabe hybrids"; doesn't reek of arrogance? That's interesting...

Sabotai: Consideirng his answer was referencing both NWN, and PST; both very successful games that work very well within the dnd framekwork; and have some great advantages over TOEE whetehr you admit it or not; I wouldn't exactly call them "shitty engines".

And, no, I definitely don't feel he was attacking me personally. That would be silly. There is no reference at all to Volourn in his comments. for some odd reason; I don't think I'm that important to Mr. Cain for him to even waste time 'attacking" me. :lol: He said his opinion on the so-called "hyrbids"; and I simply disagree. That's all this is about.

DnD is well tested? Taht's interetsing. Then explain why there is a 35 version out there. Hmmm... We also aren't talking about a lot of games who may or may not be successful - we are talking about NWN, and PST. Whether or not you like them; they are very successful. His comments were dircted at those two games; not those fictional ones.

And, TOEE isn't changing the DnD sytem? That's interetsing. 5 pc characters controlled by one player. Hmmm.. That sure isn't common practice in pnp. Last I checked, neither the Aurora or IE are "screwed up".

Heh. All this over some silly comments in a silly interview.

Enjoy. :D
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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28,044
Volourn said:
VD: That's right; you wait to judge to the new Vampire game; but BIO games you haven't played (KOTOR) are up for you to bash.
I knew you were going to pick up on that, but I was too lazy to type more. What I should have said is that I would wait till more info is available, just like I am waiting till more info is available for KOTOR PC version, and that's why I asked you to comment on dialogues, choices, and such. So far it seems to me that while it's better then NWN, it's still follow the same pattern, but I will wait till I hear back from you on those choices and dialogues.

How about criticing Mr. Cain's decision to go with the part alignment thing.
I happen to like it because at the very least it would add replayability. We had a discussion about it before, and I'm sure you agree that my opinion on alignemnts was based on some thoughts and not on the fact that Tim is doing it so it must be cool.

How, would I handle it the question? Good question. Can't say for sure; but I would try to defend my design decisions without bashing the competition.
Well, give it a try, I am curious to see. Role-play Tim Cain. :)

Exitium, probably for the same reason people here are seeing Mr. Cain's word as "innocent", and Mr. Gaider's words as an attack against TOEE and how it sucks like POR2 which he never said at all.
He didn't have to. Common, peope are not that stupid, everybody can add 2+2 and see what Gaider was getting at.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
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Aye, and I will wait for my 'sources' to get back to me. They have given me examples; but not clear cut. Too general to share with you. Though; as evienced by people here who are even highly critical of the game and have played; say that there are at leasta few situations that dialogue gets you by without fighting.

Well. We'll stick away from the alignment thing as both our views are clear on that. It's not completely horrible; but I think it's an unneeded change.

I think I gave an example of rola-playing Mr. Cain in my above post. Besdies, I don't have the right to. I don't make games enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people; jut a hundred or so. :D

So, basically you are reading into things that aren't said. Not too surprising considering how people feel about Mr. Gaider here. That's okay. It's ok to read things into his commnets; not Mr. Cain's. Cool.
 

Azael

Magister
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4,405
Location
Multikult Central South
Wasteland 2
Volourn said:
Azael: It's a step up. I prefer creating one character, and having npcs AI controlled. NPCs having their own personalities, stories, ethics; but still player controlled in combat is a step in the right direction (imo) than just having the 5 (or 6 headed syndrome).
As for spelling errors, heh. Remmeber, it's not the selling - I'm actually a pretty good speller; justa crappy typer.

Well, you sold me...

I'm coming from a different direction, I dislike having NPC's join me and then say "I bow to your allmighty wishes, but I might bitch every now and then", I'd rather have created a party from scratch in that case and had the privilege of adding the characters I feel would be useful or have NPCs join me and remain independent, not some half-assed attempt in between. I can accept it in a tactical combat game like Jagged Alliance, but I find it annoying in a CRPG.
 

Araanor

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Messages
829
Location
Sweden
Volourn said:
VD: That's right; you wait to judge to the new Vampire game; but BIO games you haven't played (KOTOR) are up for you to bash.

And you find this contradictory... why? Through the BGs and NWN, Bioware has shown a pattern. The previews or reviews shows it's following the same path, better than the earlier offerings or not. So obviously, people who didn't like NWN are going to be highly sceptical of it, don't you think?

Vampire, on the other hand, is a bigger unknown. It's made by Troika, who are obviously respected here for Fallout and Arcanum. Vampire is something Troika haven't done before, and it isn't the sort of game that would attract much interest from this crowd. People are careful.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Instead of continung this sillya rgument; I'm just going to post soe thought from a Troika dude:

Smoret, Troika Lead Programmer wrote this on the Atari Forums:

"Maybe I have a biased opinion (which I do), and maybe I spoke with Tim regarding this interviewer and his interesting selection of questions (which I did), but I do not think Tim was saying in anyway that he thought real time D&D sucked, or that Infinity Engine games sucked, or that turn based D&D was the only way to go.

The guys question was, "[why] did you decide to take The Temple of Elemental Evil away from real-time and into turn-based?" Tim's response was simply, that we didn't take it away from something, we took the system as it was and implemented it.

If Tim's response were rephrased to something like, "Rather than use the Bioware style of D&D combat we went with the WotC style of D&D combat because we wanted to stay more true," would J.E. and the crew feel as defensive? Probably not, but I think the interview question was worded in such a way that warranted a response like, "I didn't... I kept it the way WotC designed it because our plan was to make a FATHFUL interpretation of 3.5 D&D."

How people are thinking Tim hates IE games is beyond me. I think all the fans (Interplay/Bioware and Troika alike) are getting really too rabid."


and,

"tim has played and enjoyed way many more IE games than i have, that's for sure!

he got far enough in IWD2 to at least to cast otiluke's resilient sphere; i remember him talking about a particular strategy he had with that spell..."


See, he even admits that it is understandable that Mr. Cain's could be taken the wrong way. If the answers were much more clearly than maybe I personally wouldn't have reacted so harshly to them. Things are much more clear now. It's game over. Troika, BIS, and BIO all win. We all lose.

Case closed. No need for me to comment on this any further.
 

DrattedTin

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
426
I think the only person who lost here was the person who overreacted in the first place. =P
 

elander_

Arbiter
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Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
""I wanted to make a computer game based on D&D, not some hybrid system that I invented myself". I agree it can sounds somewhat arrogant..."

Since when being a prophessional and acting like a prophessional sounds arrogant? I know something about usability since im a IT student and usability is not about doing radical changes in software, removing features and completely changing a system to make it more easy to use. If that was that case then anyone would be a game designer. Just reduce everything to 3 stats and 3 skills, with Halo gameplay. Dumbing down is not the same as making something more usable.

When someone wants to make something more usable in an honest way (if he claims that he is applying usability principles) he can only change the interface without touching game features and gameplay mechanics. There are some good examples of usability principles well used in NWN. The magic system for example and chargen with the advise button and all the descriptions we read about skills and attributes in the screen. Helpers, ingame tutorials, advisers, shortcut actions are all legitimate ways to make TB easier to use whitout imposing the player an excessive cognitive charge, or the minutia and unecessary details TC was talking about.

Fallout Tactics system that mixed RT/TB and Team TB was also a good application of usability. You can even let the computer AI control the team characters if you wish not to control yourself. Another brilliant work with the help of TC.

Being arrogant is saying that TB doesn't work because we can't make it work or we are too lazy or disqualifed to bother ourselves learning. But of course they wont say this. They will come up with some holy crap taken from holy some statistics done no body knows exactly how and taken from nobody knows exactly where that claim people won't buy TB games. They even blame "casual gamers" low atention span if they have to to save their own incompetent asses.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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WOW! Talk about long dead topics. Even more impressive, it's nice to see how one's opinion can change over time. Impressive! :shock:
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Just because NWN did some things right doesn't mean i consider it a decent rpg. Same with Fallout Tactics but aparently this still confuses a lot of people.

Edit: Hey i didn't try to ressurect this old thread. The link must have appeared in the Topics box.
 

Monolith

Prophet
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
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Location
München
Damn, looks like the interview is gone. Can't find it. Perhaps I haven't searched properly...anyway, post-count +1.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Messages
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whatusername said:
I predict this thread will be retardoed.
Congratulations, you win a prize¹!

¹Your prize is nothing. Don't spend it all at once.

The Internal Server Error when you post to this thread is probably someone with "notify me of replies" ticked and the forum failing to send the e-mail, yet the post you make goes through anyway.
 

Avin

Liturgist
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May 8, 2004
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brasil
Volo doesn't have a clue about D&D excpet what was made on BG and NWN, no matter what he says now.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"Repeating yourself twice in a row doesn't mean what you post is true, moron.."
 

Avin

Liturgist
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brasil
Typing notes for yourself now, huh?
 

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