Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #25: Combat System Vote!

[Gondolin]

its many equally passionate female supporters, myself included.

You sure it's a guy?

 

[AstroZombie]

its many equally passionate female supporters, myself included.

You sure it's a guy?

From now call him Loretta.

 

[VonVentrue]

Voted for turn based. I cannot believe the vote is that close. WTF?

That's a pleasant surprise, actually. I was afraid the RTwP option would immediately pull ahead by a significant margin.

 

[Korron]

I hope they choose an arcanum combat style so we all lose. At the end of the day I don't care which they choose. Anyone saying neither system can be good lacks imagination, and if it's shit it'll be due to the design talent at inxile. The great temporal debate is a lie. I do want to say a couple of the advantages listed on the TB side that inxile lists should be none of our fucking concern without concrete examples of how they benefit us, and even inxile clearly wants TB. Fine by me as long as the game isn't artificially extended with Fucking Hordes of Trash Mobs™.

 

[hiver]

Troll or a dumbass. That is the question.

 

[deamento]

Troll or a dumbass. That is the question.

i vote dumbass, it's hard to fake that kind of stupidity

 

[norolim]

Voted. Feel good about it.

 

[Korron]

Better that than a dumbfuck I suppose. Sorry I don't just drink the green koolaid with my rose-tinted glasses. I'll go rethink my life.

 

[hiver]

- thats just a crutch our DU gave himself as he hobbles around - you know it anyway. obviously.

Sorry I don't just drink the green koolaid.

I like slurm better.

I'll go rethink my life.

....

 

[Awakened_Yeti]

RT with QTE FTW!

 

[hiver]

Whats the score now?

-edit-

ooohh 209 APs ahead.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I hope they choose an arcanum combat style so we all lose. At the end of the day I don't care which they choose. Anyone saying neither system can be good lacks imagination, and if it's shit it'll be due to the design talent at inxile. The great temporal debate is a lie. I do want to say a couple of the advantages listed on the TB side that inxile lists should be none of our fucking concern without concrete examples of how they benefit us, and even inxile clearly wants TB. Fine by me as long as the game isn't artificially extended with Fucking Hordes of Trash Mobs™.

Bro, I'm sure with your great imagination you can make shit taste good, but would you mind sharing it with us? Let us sample a morsel of that shining imagination, eh? I mean... hey, when you make this kind of claims you must have something to back them up, right? You're not just vomiting platitudes like "everything can be good if you work hard on it" or "think positive and everything will be fine", right? No, certainly you seem like a clever fellow. I mean look at this:

Sorry I don't just drink the green koolaid with my rose-tinted glasses. I'll go rethink my life.

Never have I ever seen such an argument with the power to silence the internet.

 

[Korron]

Alright Bro. I'll give you my reasons against my better judgement. I'm just reluctant to use energy attempting serious debate when I feel like the codex has always been a place where it's better to immediately assume superiority. So to start I suppose I better discuss InXile's viewpoint, so straight from the horses mouth:

The primary advantages we see in TB are:

- Combat is more thoughtful, even under intense pressure.
You can pause time anytime you like with RTwP and think about it all you want. What exactly do they even mean by this? How would determining how to react in a sequence of events be anymore thoughtful than accounting for simultaneous action of any actors? Is there some sort of metric for thoughtfulness that they've used to determine this absolutely?

- It allows greater depth of choice: you have time to explore all your options, so we can include more options, and more complicated options, without overwhelming the player.
Again this is bullshit. YOU"LL HAVE TIME???? Guess the pause doesn't mean anything again. What are they even assuming by this? "Oh fuck having the ability to pause and consider my actions at anytime would be just way too complicated and over my head. Thank goodness they've gone with turn-based so I wasn't limited on my options because whoowie if I had to pause and consider the same number of options I'd just have to sit and cry in a puddle of my own urine."

Look I really am for either system, but I don't think those criticisms above hold up for why TB is superior. I really think that deciding when to pause in simultaneous combat or have TB should not be the limiting factor in what sort of strategical gameplay can arise. Maybe the interfaces of past games have made TB much more amenable to doing so (ToEE radial menu being debatable), but as someone admittedly without the know-how to make games myself (like almost every game critic) I still think it's feasible to have a game with an easy to navigate UI allowing easy access to a depth of character actions and very responsive and competent AI that can all function just as well in a RTwP environment. Isn't it all just turn-based under the hood anyway?

 

[Rake]

Alright Bro. I'll give you my reasons against my better judgement. I'm just reluctant to use energy attempting serious debate when I feel like the codex has always been a place where it's better to immediately assume superiority. So to start I suppose I better discuss InXile's viewpoint, so straight from the horses mouth:

The primary advantages we see in TB are:

- Combat is more thoughtful, even under intense pressure.
You can pause time anytime you like with RTwP and think about it all you want. What exactly do they even mean by this? How would determining how to react in a sequence of events be anymore thoughtful than accounting for simultaneous action of any actors? Is there some sort of metric for thoughtfulness that they've used to determine this absolutely?

- It allows greater depth of choice: you have time to explore all your options, so we can include more options, and more complicated options, without overwhelming the player.
Again this is bullshit. YOU"LL HAVE TIME???? Guess the pause doesn't mean anything again. What are they even assuming by this? "Oh fuck having the ability to pause and consider my actions at anytime would be just way too complicated and over my head. Thank goodness they've gone with turn-based so I wasn't limited on my options because whoowie if I had to pause and consider the same number of options I'd just have to sit and cry in a puddle of my own urine."

Look I really am for either system, but I don't think those criticisms above hold up for why TB is superior. I really think that deciding when to pause in simultaneous combat or have TB should not be the limiting factor in what sort of strategical gameplay can arise. Maybe the interfaces of past games have made TB much more amenable to doing so (ToEE radial menu being debatable), but as someone admittedly without the know-how to make games myself (like almost every game critic) I still think it's feasible to have a game with an easy to navigate UI allowing easy access to a depth of character actions and very responsive and competent AI that can all function just as well in a RTwP environment. Isn't it all just turn-based under the hood anyway?

I'm like RTwP more than most in the Codex, in fact i don't prefer TB on principle as many do here. And yet, i disagree with what you wrote. What inXile wrote is spot on. RTwP strength are others.
Read again what you wrote. The only way for RTwP to come close to TB is to literary pause every other second. That's the main reason many Codexers hated IE combat. Because they played it in the way you propose, trying to mimic TB gameplay as much as possible. Quess what? RTwP is unfun played that way, and it's no surprising. It turns into poor man's TB. If you want to play it that way, go TB from the start.

 

[undecaf]

I'd say it's is about the wealth of options with the requirement for precise execution of every action because you are in full control over your characters; you are not just adjusting the parameters of an ongoing situation or putting some grease to the cogs every now and then, you need to account for every step (literally).

 

[tuluse]

- Combat is more thoughtful, even under intense pressure.
You can pause time anytime you like with RTwP and think about it all you want. What exactly do they even mean by this? How would determining how to react in a sequence of events be anymore thoughtful than accounting for simultaneous action of any actors? Is there some sort of metric for thoughtfulness that they've used to determine this absolutely?

In turn based you have to take in account what your opponent will do on his turn since you are unable to react until it is finished. in RTwP, you are able to react immediately to anything that happens.

 

[Korron]

I'm like RTwP more than most in the Codex, in fact i don't prefer TB on principle as many do here. And yet, i disagree with what you wrote. What inXile wrote is spot on. RTwP strength are others.
Read again what you wrote. The only way for RTwP to come close to TB is to literary pause every other second. That's the main reason many Codexers hated IE combat. Because they played it in the way you propose, trying to mimic TB gameplay as much as possible. Quess what? RTwP is unfun played that way, and it's no surprising. It turns into poor man's TB. If you want to play it that way, go TB from the start.

And yet excluding planescape I would disagree on whether the combat was fun. I think it was appropriate for the encounter designs because for most of the IE games my level of micromanagement was tuned to the difficultly of the encounter. I would argue that turn-based would not have been as fun for any of the BG or IWD titles because of the trash mobs. Maybe what I really want is turn-based combat with only well-designed encounters because resolving combat against the 20th mob of skeletons quickly becomes tedious. Is that really the correct course though? Trash mobs have their usefulness too. Wiping out the village of goblins with relative ease when you initially struggled with a couple of them at level 1 gives you a sense of achievment and power. Does a good RPG require a certain gameplay length? Are trash mobs essential for getting that gameplay length? If so, do I really want to slog through a bunch of encounters with TB? Maybe past iterations of RTwP have been "poor man's TB", but that doesn't mean it can't be achieved with the same sense of tactical depth and reactivity now.

I'd say it's is about the wealth of options with the requirement for precise execution of every action because you are in full control over your characters; you are not just adjusting the parameters of an ongoing situation or putting some grease to the cogs every now and then, you need to account for every step (literally).

I think that's a fair description of the different experiences, but I don't see a 1:1 connection between those observations and a lack of thoughtfulness or wealth of choice in either of those two options.

In turn based you have to take in account what your opponent will do on his turn since you are unable to react until it is finished. in RTwP, you are able to react immediately to anything that happens.

Again this is a difference, but I just am not convinced that one or the other requires more "thoughtfulness". I think them saying it allows more thoughtful action is a bit abstract.

 

[tuluse]

In turn based you have to take in account what your opponent will do on his turn since you are unable to react until it is finished. in RTwP, you are able to react immediately to anything that happens.

Again this is a difference, but I just am not convinced that one or the other requires more "thoughtfulness". I think them saying it allows more thoughtful action is a bit abstract.

That's exactly the word I would use to describe a game that is more about planning than reacting.

 

[Rake]

And yet excluding planescape I would disagree on whether the combat was fun. I think it was appropriate for the encounter designs because for most of the IE games my level of micromanagement was tuned to the difficultly of the encounter.

Of course it was fun. I love IE combat. Even PS:T's wasn't so bas as most people making it sound. But i didn't paused every second, nor did i tried to reproduse TB tactical level for a RTwP game.

I would argue that turn-based would not have been as fun for any of the BG or IWD titles because of the trash mobs.

Definently true.

Maybe past iterations of RTwP have been "poor man's TB", but that doesn't mean it can't be achieved with the same sense of tactical depth and reactivity now.

IE combat was great, as long as it was treated as RTwP. It became "poor man's TB" only if the player came with a TB mentality, pausing every second to control every single action.
That's why all the arguements "RTwP is TB if you pause every n seconds" are wrong. RTwP and TB are completely different, the play different, and have different strengths and weaknesses.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-it-work-tb-vs-rtwp.76280/page-5#post-2278358

 

[Korron]

In turn based you have to take in account what your opponent will do on his turn since you are unable to react until it is finished. in RTwP, you are able to react immediately to anything that happens.

Again this is a difference, but I just am not convinced that one or the other requires more "thoughtfulness". I think them saying it allows more thoughtful action is a bit abstract.

That's exactly the word I would use to describe a game that is more about planning than reacting.

I'd agree if we were arguing chess vs tennis, but we're talking about two very similar combat styles. Planning in what sense? I need to take out the mage first? I will kite them into this corridor where I set a trap? I'm encountering a lot of fire-type enemies I need to buff against fire damage? Reacting in what sense? They wounded my thief, I should pull him from the front line. The cleric just buffed all the enemies, I need to debuff them. The mage just cast an AOE spell that lasts multiple turns, I need to move my party away from the area. These can all be accomplished with TB and RTwP. Just because I can react immediately in RTwP doesn't make it any less of a game about planning over reacting.

 

[tuluse]

In turn based you have to take in account what your opponent will do on his turn since you are unable to react until it is finished. in RTwP, you are able to react immediately to anything that happens.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Alright Bro.

Bro, I don't know about what you just wrote, but I want to hear your thoughts on how to make either of the systems good. See, you said:

Anyone saying neither system can be good lacks imagination

Surely, that means that with this imagination thing you're talking about anything can be good, no? Please, share with us your imagination.

Until then, let's just file it under "think positive", huh?

 

[Cynic]

I have done my duty.

I will await the banning of all so called Codexians who voted RTwP.

 

[hiver]

you all know what... rimes with Korron.

Spoiler

- whaat? its just too good of an opportunity to miss out on.

In turn based you have to take in account what your opponent will do on his turn since you are unable to react until it is finished. in RTwP, you are able to react immediately to anything that happens.

plus - everything you do in TB costs so you can only choose a few out of all available options to execute - each having its pros and cons. - with delayed consequences. - in which your character can react, even if you as a player cannot.

thus.

 

[Korron]

Alright Bro.

turn

Bro, I don't know about what you just wrote, but I want to hear your thoughts on how to make either of the systems good. See, you said:

Anyone saying neither system can be good lacks imagination

Surely, that means that with this imagination thing you're talking about anything can be good, no? Please, share with us your imagination.

Until then, let's just file it under "think positive", huh?

I just think it is naive for anyone to say because I have or have not enjoyed a particular style of gameplay in the past I am going to be bitterly opposed to any future incarnations because they clearly can't be good. The Codex often stinks of this mentality. I enjoyed ToEE as much as I enjoyed the IE games. Both were fun as they existed, but I don't think it is a leap of imagination to say both systems can and should be improved. Honestly for me arcanum had the right idea executed poorly. I think a merger of both systems would be best. Have an attack order established during real-time which all of the background math is operating under, but let your default attack operate when executing in real-time unless you queue some actions that can be interrupted at anytime. This would let you quickly resolve any buffing turns, trash mobs, or mopping up the last couple enemies. As I've said earlier I actually do think trash mobs are useful if you're focused on having an overall fun combat experience. Combat should have variety of challenge, and I think easy encounters help reinforce a sense of progression, and having progressive difficulty as you navigate deeper into a dungeon is consistent with traditional dungeon design in many previous crpgs. Let your party operate under AI for certain conditions as well so a party member, as an example, can immediately cure/heal a party member depending on a set priority as far as interrupting queued orders. These abilities would let you have a better sense of managing combat without letting it deteriorate into chaos. When you enter pause mode though have a fully functional turn-based mode. It can all operate on a grid that you can overlay (and could set waypoints similar to xcom that could operate in real-time as well) and would let you have the precision control needed for tougher encounters. Finally let the enemy AI operate under a set of progressively worse best options which is randomly determined with modifiers. The option chosen could even be tied into a challenge rating or intelligence stat for each enemy that would be consistent with the stats of the enemy (e.g. the dumb orc's best move is to interrupt the spellcaster but because of a low intelligence modifier they continue to engage the fighter).