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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
Getting paid a lot without doing much, probably, that seems to be how Blizzard works.

How would you know he isn't doing anything? maybe he's working in diablo 4?

That't the same as doing nothing.

Just because they made games you don't like(i dont like blizzard games either) doesn't mean he shouldn't keep working there if it's good money/a good situation

anyone who doesn't understand that has probably never had a real job/career
 
Unwanted

Irenaeus III

Unwanted
Shitposter
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
990
I have a real job/career, doesn't stop me from hating when people waste their talents.

It happens to me irl too, some people think I'm wasting my talents and get pissed at me. If they can do it, I can too.
 

Drudkh

Learned
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
111
Other than performance which is getting better, (as suspected) my only gripe is the way the character models are outlined with red and green during combat. When enemies and allies get close together it turns into a cluster fuck of highlighted red and green that looks awful, and the highlighting really isn't needed at all because even with the low detail the player model differences are obvious enough. Also, after clicking the crossed blades icon to confirm a decision to attack, i have to move the cursor much further away to decide how much of my resource pool i want to use.

Ultimately, all that stuff i mentioned doesn't effect the substance of the game, it just looks terrible. I'm still loving the game, and considering the rubbish line up of upcoming rpgs compared to last year, ToN is like a fucking miracle. Praise Jah
 

Fry

Arcane
Joined
Aug 29, 2013
Messages
1,922
Overly reactive? I'd say the opposite. The character start and stop animations take forever which makes basic movement feel sluggish and non-responsive to me.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
It looks great in let's-play videos.

When you're actually playing though it feels like they're stuck in molasses.

It's not as bad now as it was in the alpha though, which is something I guess. I'd been hoping they'd change it but this far in, probably not. I did get -- partly -- used to it while faffing about with the beta. One upside is that they run longer distances faster at least.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
515
Location
The last dictatorship of Europe
This is neither here nor there, and isn't intended for any argumentative reason, but randomly while reading Stanislaw Lem's Fiasco, I came across a passage strikingly similar to the start of T:TON. I figured I'd post it here -- it's a different setting, and a different style, and a different medium, but it's always interesting to me to see how two skilled writers attack the same problem:
He returned to consciousness blind and without a body. His first thoughts were not formed of words; his feeling were confused, inexpressible. He receded, disappeared somewhere, and returned. It was only when he found his internal speech that he could put questions to himself. What was I afraid of? What kind of darkness is this? What does this mean? And when he made this step, he was able to think: What am I? What is happening to me?

He tried to move, to locate his arms, legs, torso, knowing now that he had a body, or at least that he should have one. But nothing responded, nothing moved. He could not tell if his eyes were open. He felt no lids, no blinking. He exerted all his strength to lift the lids, and perhaps succeeded. But he saw nothing except the same darkness as before. These attempts, requiring tremendous effort, again led him to the question: What am I? I am a man.

This obvious answer was a revelation to him. Then, immediately, he knew its obviousness and smiled at himself, because what kind of brilliant discovery was that?

Words returned slowly, from where he did not know, and at first were scattered and without pattern, as i£ he were pulling them up like fish out of unknown depths. Am. l am. Where, I do not know. I cannot feel my body. Why is that? Now he began to feel his face, the cheeks, possibly the nose. He was even able to move the nostrils, though that took an enormous exertion of will. He stared, moving the eyeballs, in all directions, and concluded, because his ability to reason had returned: Either I am blind or it is completely dark. The darkness brought to mind night, and night a great space full of pure, cold air, and air suggested breath. Am I breathing? he asked himself, and listened carefully to his darkness, which was so like nothingness and yet so unlike it.

It seemed to him that he was breathing, but not in the usual way. The belly, the ribs were motionless, held in incomprehensible suspension; the air entered by itself and gently left. There was no other way he could breathe.

He had a face now, lungs, nostrils, a mouth, eyes, though unseeing. He decided to make a fist, remembering perfectly what hands were and how to close them tight. Still he felt nothing, and fear returned, this time rational, from logic: This is either paralysis or I have lost my arms and possibly my legs. The conclusion seemed false -- he had lungs, that was certain, and yet no body. Into his darkness and fear intruded tones, measured, distlnt, dull. Blood?

His heart? It was beating. Then he heard, like the first tidings from the outside, the sounds of speech. His hearing opened suddenly, though it was mulfled. There were two people speaking -- he distinguished two voices -- but he did oot understand what they were saying. The language was known to him; the words, however, were indistinct, like objects seen through misted glass or a fog. As he focused his attention more, his hearing sharpened, and -- strangely -- t was through his hearing that he emerged from himself, finding himself in a space that had a bottom, top, and sides. This meant gravity, he realized. Then he started to concentrate completely on the hearing. The voices were masculine, one higher and softer, the other low, a baritone, very close. Perhaps he could speak himself, it he tried, But he wanted to listen first, not only out of curiosity and hope, but also because it was a pleasurable thing to hear so well and to comprehend more and more human speech.
I don't think this was an inspiration for the T:TON text, but I thought it was neat all the same!
I knew that TTON had the right kind of writers, but seeing this makes me warm and fuzzy inside :salute:
 

DosBuster

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
1,861
Location
God's Dumpster
Codex USB, 2014
I'm guessing by consoles you mean AAA?

So, from what I understand Torment utilizes a system called Root Motion Animation which is now the norm for most games. Before root motion the game engine figured out things like collision, aiming and various other systems via use of a capsule surrounding the model. The capsule was driven by a controller and that's what you were moving around. The model and animation set were contained within the capsule, the player does not control the animation, the capsule does. The animations themselves did not cause movement or anything really they were to show you what your character was doing internally. The downsides to this system is that animations wouldn't adapt to the environment or situation, resulting in one animation being used for every circumstance creating visual problems.

Here is an example of how the old system worked on a high-level:


As you can see despite the character model moving several feet beyond the capsule it was still stuck at the origin point where the action was initiated. So, all the collision data, logic and the player controller is stuck behind the animation. Root motion animation was the solution to this problem.

Root motion animation ties the capsule and character model together, all animation is a direct response to player control and environmental circumstances. Here is another example:


The problems with root motion is that since animation is tied to character movement that when you have a player character with a low speed score that is reflected by the animation. And while this has been done with the old method it is even more noticeable with root motion.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I very much doubt this is the case. T:ToN uses the Pillars engine which doesn't behave like this and the motion we're bitching about has been there since the very first tech demo they showed in a video clip. I'd be extremely surprised if they put effort into redoing the animation engine that early in the game.

I think the animations have been made the old boring way and they're like they are because they think they look kewl.
 

Merlkir

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,216
I remember a dev blog or something where they said this is their own addition over the Pillars animation system - it is some kind of weighted/blended in inertia. (it looked real nice in the videos, helped with transitions between motions. Might need some tuning of the controls.)
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I remember a dev blog or something where they said this is their own addition over the Pillars animation system - it is some kind of weighted/blended in inertia. (it looked real nice in the videos, helped with transitions between motions. Might need some tuning of the controls.)

Yeah, whatever it is it's their addition. It does look good, too bad it mucks up the feel.

At least they run longer distances faster though.
 

DosBuster

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
1,861
Location
God's Dumpster
Codex USB, 2014
https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9879

Hi everyone,

My name is Josh Jertberg and you have once again given me the great opportunity to be your Animator for Torment. I have just wrapped up most of my work on WL2 so I am full steam ahead on Torment. I had a lot of fun talking to many of you during the development of WL2 and I hope we can do the same here. I value everyone's thoughts and opinions and am often inspired by them.
I am going to open this up by asking for everyone's trust and understanding. I am attempting a non traditional approach to Torments animation. Torment presents an opportunity I have been interested in as a game animator most of my career. That opportunity is root motion. What the heck is root motion? Root motion is a system that allows the animation to drive the characters movement thru the world giving it a life like quality that cant be achieved any other way.This is in contrast to a traditional system that has code move and rotate characters position usually in a very linear way with animation simply being played on top. Torment is an emotionally driven thought provoking game. My vision is to have the characters movement enhance this feeling.
Traditionally a RM system is used in conjunction with an analogue controller, the stick provides a natural curve to input. Devising a smart way to emulate this with a mouse click was the first challenge. Currently I am using distance of the click to drive some of the logic of movement. For example a short click will keep the character at a brisk walk, but a longer distance click will put them in a run right away. There is much more to it than this but it has a very organic feel to it. A big challenge is that its a mechanical system that is non deterministic yet we need you to hit your mark reliably. I am using Unitys built in RM system mecanim, it has its issues and is certainly not perfect but it gets the job done. Another traditional aspect of RM is the use of motion capture animation. It makes sense as all the real world translation is built right in to the animation. I am hand crafting the animations for Torment and its something that is not usually done with root motion but as an animator it excites the hell out of me. Using hand keyed animation also helps me push the bounds of reality a bit to get a balance between realism and responsiveness. Our recently released teaser has a taste of this ambitious animation system. I cant express how excited I am to be working on this and the vision of the animation is something that I am personally very passionate about. I have been fighting to make it viable in Torment and I hope all of you will appreciate the effort in the final product.

Please feel free to use this thread to ask any and all animation questions and I will do my best to answer as much as I can.

Thanks again to all of our backers:)
 

Starwars

Arcane
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
2,829
Location
Sweden
https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9879

Hi everyone,

My name is Josh Jertberg and you have once again given me the great opportunity to be your Animator for Torment. I have just wrapped up most of my work on WL2 so I am full steam ahead on Torment. I had a lot of fun talking to many of you during the development of WL2 and I hope we can do the same here. I value everyone's thoughts and opinions and am often inspired by them.
I am going to open this up by asking for everyone's trust and understanding. I am attempting a non traditional approach to Torments animation. Torment presents an opportunity I have been interested in as a game animator most of my career. That opportunity is root motion. What the heck is root motion? Root motion is a system that allows the animation to drive the characters movement thru the world giving it a life like quality that cant be achieved any other way.This is in contrast to a traditional system that has code move and rotate characters position usually in a very linear way with animation simply being played on top. Torment is an emotionally driven thought provoking game. My vision is to have the characters movement enhance this feeling.
Traditionally a RM system is used in conjunction with an analogue controller, the stick provides a natural curve to input. Devising a smart way to emulate this with a mouse click was the first challenge. Currently I am using distance of the click to drive some of the logic of movement. For example a short click will keep the character at a brisk walk, but a longer distance click will put them in a run right away. There is much more to it than this but it has a very organic feel to it. A big challenge is that its a mechanical system that is non deterministic yet we need you to hit your mark reliably. I am using Unitys built in RM system mecanim, it has its issues and is certainly not perfect but it gets the job done. Another traditional aspect of RM is the use of motion capture animation. It makes sense as all the real world translation is built right in to the animation. I am hand crafting the animations for Torment and its something that is not usually done with root motion but as an animator it excites the hell out of me. Using hand keyed animation also helps me push the bounds of reality a bit to get a balance between realism and responsiveness. Our recently released teaser has a taste of this ambitious animation system. I cant express how excited I am to be working on this and the vision of the animation is something that I am personally very passionate about. I have been fighting to make it viable in Torment and I hope all of you will appreciate the effort in the final product.

Please feel free to use this thread to ask any and all animation questions and I will do my best to answer as much as I can.

Thanks again to all of our backers:)

I think it's great that people want to push the boundaries for different aspects of gaming but as it is, the point with TTON still stands... it makes moving around the world feel sluggish as hell. I guess maybe it depends on what kind of gamer you are, I dunno. But I can't stand that it feels so... non-responsive. Just the feeling of it is annoying as fuck.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I didn't get much emotion out of this except annoyance.
Connection between slow walk->run->slow walk and "thought provoking game" = 0

Perhaps they can put in one of their famous toggles (for those damn people who don't get their vision, of course) and let us decide if setting it to always run ruins the thought provocation.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I'm a little bit concerned about TTON EA's sales. Steamspy puts ~11k people as owners (partly kickstarter backers, I presume). It doesn't seem like much :]

My back of the envelope count puts the number of beta-eligible backers at around 13,000. So yeah, it doesn't look like too many have bought it now, assuming those numbers are at all realistic.
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
Of the people I know who are interested in Torment, nobody wants to play an early access version of the game and spoil themselves, even slightly. Perhaps the ratio of EA to full release sales will be slightly different to a combatfag game.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Yup. Most people in my gaming circle won't even touch the beta.

If the beginning was anywhere near as good as PS:T I'd be regretting participating in the beta. "Fortunately" it's kind of weak. It does pick up after it, but I don't really feel terribly spoiled by that part. Very much looking forward to the full game, as the beta is really promising after it picks up.

But it is a shame about that start...
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Are they showing any sings of improving the weak parts from the start?

Not that I've noticed.

TBH I haven't read through the dialog in the start too carefully as I already went through it several times in the first build. I'll see if I can do that the next time I spin it up.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,967
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
They wouldn't have changed it so quickly. A reworking of the game's opening is something that requires a lot of care.
 

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