Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Kirtai]

There are different intelligences, sure. Superior ones? Yeah, if not so many. How do you survive? I dunno, last I checked earth is pretty crowded despite the presence of one intelligence that is dominatingly more powerful than any other. You get in the way, they swat you. But we have no interesting in wiping out all other species. Just when they're inconvenient or we need em for something do we terminate or dominate. The mere presence of superior intelligences hardly necessitates the domination or extermination of all inferior intelligences, humanity included.

Well no, but in post-human high-tech settings you can plausibly have entities that want to build things like Matrioshka brains which involve completely rebuilding entire star systems. We already know that stellar engineering is in the setting. If you live on a planet in that system, sucks to be you.

Of course, the game is written by human writers for human players, so if that's what you're getting at (I didn't really read the shouting match), then well, it's still science fiction, not an attempt to realistically depict what happens when technology develops beyond human understanding. Neither is Wasteland 2, which also has some high tech. If that's unacceptable to you, then really all sci fi is unacceptable to you, this included.

The thing is, I really like this sort of setting and they have incredible potential. I'm just keenly aware that it's an incredibly difficult setting to make even vaguely plausible due to the immense power scale. So I'd really like to know a bit about how they intend to handle it.

Now I'm off to finish reading a book which has

Spoiler

protagonists who are unaware human-equivalent simulations in an autobiography told by a transapient, in a setting where they have to flee from the entire solar system being rearchitected.

No prizes for guessing which book this is

 

[Brother None]

We already know that stellar engineering is in the setting.

*was*. None of the beings who did that are around anymore.

See, this is where assumptions come in. High-tech doesn't automatically mean the active presence of transhuman intelligences and creatures of power beyond comprehension. I don't think this setting or particular story will have any of that. That doesn't mean there aren't differing levels of power or intelligence, just not of the extent that humanity at its undeveloped state is actively trampled.

 

[FeelTheRads]

So, BN, since you read the outline of the story how would you rate it on a scale of Bioware to Torment?

 

[Kirtai]

We already know that stellar engineering is in the setting.

*was*. None of the beings who did that are around anymore.

Thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about.

See, this is where assumptions come in. High-tech doesn't automatically mean the active presence of transhuman intelligences and creatures of power beyond comprehension. I don't think this setting or particular story will have any of that. That doesn't mean there aren't differing levels of power or intelligence, just not of the extent that humanity at its undeveloped state is actively trampled.

It was lines like "We won’t have gods, but we’ll have creatures who have lived for millennia with the powers of creation and destruction at their fingertips, with abilities honed over countless lifetimes." that had me concerned.

 

[hiver]

I think that just from a funding perspective, it would be unwise to make it TB.

It would alienate at least some portion of fans of the original Torment, and they might not pledge.

This is totally fallacious.

For years and years and years the only thing i heard about Torment in this sense is "god imagine if this had TOEE (or similar) combat! it would be glorious!"

There is no fans of rtwp in Torment sense. Especially seeing how badly done this rtwp was done in the original, which was a mistake BiS did in their shift from "unattractive" TB systems into more mass market friendly rtwp systems which continued onto Obsidian.

 

[pocahaunted]

Stop conflating Torment fans with members of the 'dex and maybe you'll understand why you're wrong.

In before insult flinging.

 

[Sergiu64]

It was lines like "We won’t have gods, but we’ll have creatures who have lived for millennia with the powers of creation and destruction at their fingertips, with abilities honed over countless lifetimes." that had me concerned.

Why is that any more concerning then having Gods in a Fantasy universe? There will often been "all powerful" beings in fantasy worlds, doesn't mean that those beings are actively doing anything, at least as far as players interacting with that fantasy world can tell.

 

[Brother None]

So, BN, since you read the outline of the story how would you rate it on a scale of Bioware to Torment?

I was impressed but a) I'm undeniably biased and b) story outlines always read well, because it's easier to have general "great ideas" - hell, I've seen plenty of such casually stated on forums. The real question is how it's fleshed out. I loved the outline, the way it cleverly had Tormentian ideas, integrates stories from different writers, and the basic ideas behind the characters. So now you need a staff of p damn good writers to flesh it out.

It was lines like "We won’t have gods, but we’ll have creatures who have lived for millennia with the powers of creation and destruction at their fingertips, with abilities honed over countless lifetimes." that had me concerned.

Fargo's outline was pretty general. But sure, then the question is in what situations are those creatures, how does the player meet them, etc. I mean, in this sense the Lady of Pain is such a god-like creature too, but she never took any active interest in TNO's affairs, they just brushed past each other (or not). Creatures that powerful don't tend to feature centrally to the plot but rather to have the player brushed by their actions or messed around with by them.

 

[hiver]

There is nothing stating there are any "all powerful" beings in the setting. And the mere fact this is a post apocalyptic setting confirms it.
Apocalypse and post-apocalypse are not a style of clothes or a visual gimmick.


There is also nothing ive seen stating there are any super powerful AIs. Smarter than humans? Sure...is that any kind of a big problem?
Different Ais of different capabilities, different levels of intelligence and even functionality - Ais damaged and limited in different ways?
Possesing limited resources, limited and specific technologies?
But still looking super powerful to a lowly and generally regressed human?

There is nothing stating they can control nano swarms. Or do whatever they or nanoswarms want at no cost at all.


Didnt Planescape Torment have literal gods, powers, demons and entities much more powerful then TNO was at the start?
And several much more powerful then he ever got to be?
Did they all have a same goal - one single purpose?

So?

Doesnt that mean we could, in right circumstances, even play one against the other?

 

[Kirtai]

Ok, I'll leave it for now but I'll just note that fantasy gods, demons and so on are usually depicted as powerful due to their innate abilities. Post-human intelligences are depicted as powerful because they're vastly more intelligent than us. And yes, it's a problem since ... "Beyond a certain point, there was simply nothing you could do; there was no brilliant plan you could draw up or cunning stratagem you could employ that would not seem laughably simple and unsophisticated to a profoundly more developed enemy."

 

[Brother None]

Right, again, that's assuming those vastly more developed creatures have any interest in you at all, let alone that they are your enemies. I wouldn't assume that's the case.

 

[hiver]

There is no scale that goes from 1(human) to 10(godlike-infallible-omnipotent).
The scale actually contains all the possible states between 1 and 10.

Stating that fantasy entities are depicted as such and such due to their innate abilities but post human intelligences are vastly more powerful.... and then saying nothing else is simply wrong, incomplete and fallacious.
Even if they are vastly more powerful then "us", it is because their innate abilities too.
An elephant is vastly more powerful then humans in some specifics and in some circumstances that becomes an absolute while in other it is worthless.


That "certain point" is not a given. It is invented. There is no scale that goes from 1 to 10 with nothing in between, - always.

Nothing is set in stone. Especially not everyday probabilities upon which ALL depend. Even post human intelligences of any possible kind.
Especially considering there may be many individual ones, with different goals and capabilities.

 

[Kirtai]

I doubt that construction companies have any interest in the insects and mouseholes crushed under the tracks of their bulldozers either. They're crushed all the same.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

How to enjoy Science Fantasy and other soft science fiction:
1. Suspend disbelief
2. Repeat Step 1.

 

[Kirtai]

But, but, how would I nitpick if I did that?

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

How to nitpick Science Fantasy and other soft science fiction:
1. Ask if any given macguffin is totally metal.
2. Repeat Step 1.

 

[hiver]

I doubt that construction companies have any interest in the insects and mouseholes crushed under the tracks of their bulldozers either. They're crushed all the same.

I know a lot of construction companies and have worked in some that dont have any bulldozers.
Again... you see everything through the scale that has only 1 and 10 in it.

-edit-
and do i really, really need to repeat again that in a post apocalyptic setting bulldozers tend not to work either completely or with very limited capabilities, or for very short time... etc, etc, et bloody c...?

 

[Brother None]

I doubt that construction companies have any interest in the insects and mouseholes crushed under the tracks of their bulldozers either. They're crushed all the same.

Sure, hence my remark of you get in the way, you're smooshed. But insects and mice still thrive in this society, they're not dominated or exterminated by humanity, as you seem to indicated humanity would be. Why, if they take no active interest in us? Some will die, sure. If he's foolish, maybe the player will. But who says he's a target?

 

[hiver]

And... if we really have to use inane examples... What if there is an even more powerful "entity" like say... ministry of environment or ecology and they want those ants to be there and will fuck you up and your company and impound all your buldozers if you dare to destroy those ants... who may be the last of their kind?

 

[Kirtai]

Sure, hence my remark of you get in the way, you're smooshed. But insects and mice still thrive in this society, they're not dominated or exterminated by humanity, as you seem to indicated humanity would be. Why, if they take no active interest in us? Some will die, sure. If he's foolish, maybe the player will. But who says he's a target?

I wasn't thinking of the player being a target or indeed, of any interest at all. What could be of interest is the planet or star system they live on, a useful concentrated chunk of raw materials & information. The player then is mere collateral damage.

Or the star itself but that's less of a concern since you mentioned the people who did stellar engineering are no longer around. Assuming, of course, that the tools they used are not hidden somewhere, waiting to be found...

 

[Roguey]

And Wasteland nostalgia was for a phasebased game. They still turned it into a turn-based game. Because it works better.

Are you referring to the specific game they wanted to make or in general? Because I'd prefer a phase-based Torment successor to rtwp if turn-based is out of the question (assuming I'll even want this thing).

 

[Brother None]

And Wasteland nostalgia was for a phasebased game. They still turned it into a turn-based game. Because it works better.

Are you referring to the specific game they wanted to make or in general? Because I'd prefer a phase-based Torment successor to rtwp if turn-based is out of the question (assuming I'll even want this thing).

That was specific for WL2. Turnbased isn't out of the question for Torment, nor is phase-based. There's a set of requirements of any system Torment uses on a strategic and tactical level concerning character definition, balance and density/quick resolution of combat. The whole picture makes them lean towards RTwP but less tactically dense phase or turn-based are options too, sure.

Or the star itself but that's less of a concern since you mentioned the people who did stellar engineering are no longer around. Assuming, of course, that the tools they used are not hidden somewhere, waiting to be found...

They might be. It's not really a factor in this game but you could probably run a fun Numenera campaign about some madman wanting to blow up the sun and the party chasing him.

 

[CMcC]

Hell, you could run a Numenera campaign based off Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun.

 

[undecaf]

Turnbased isn't out of the question for Torment, nor is phase-based. There's a set of requirements of any system Torment uses on a strategic and tactical level concerning character definition, balance and density/quick resolution of combat. The whole picture makes them lean towards RTwP but less tactically dense phase or turn-based are options too, sure.

So there's still some hope left in that regard. That's good.

 

[Infinitron]

George Ziets weighs in: http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/414930684084248701

Thoughts on the Torment announcement from inXile?

It sounds exciting to me. I like what I’ve read about Numerera. The world reminds me a lot of Gene Wolfe’s New Sun series of books, which has always been on my short list of promising RPG settings. Plus Monte Cook and Colin McComb are involved, which provides a bridge to both the setting of the original game and its development as a CRPG.

And with Kevin Saunders as project director, I think development will be well-planned and organized, which is crucially important. Our design process on Mask of the Betrayer was the best of any game I’ve worked on, and that was largely thanks to Kevin.

Everything I’ve heard suggests that InXile is trying to stay as true to the spirit of the original as they can, including things like “lots of text,” which I never thought I’d hear from a (non-indie) game developer again, but which makes me very happy. For those concerned about a lack of portals and planes in the spiritual sequel, I’d check out Cook’s short story, the Amber Monolith. In addition to evoking the atmosphere of the New Sun books, it makes clear that the science fantasy equivalent of portals and planar travel are very much possible in the new setting: http://www.numenera.com/the-amber-monolith/

His idea for a true sequel BG3: http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/414930203056307948

If you had a free drop to continue Baldur's Gate III from where Throne of Baal left off, How would you approach a divine level campaign? How would you bring a campaign with deities to life?

I’ve always thought that the struggles of a new FR deity could be pretty interesting. Think about what the Bhaalspawn would be up against: 1) few or no followers in a setting where a god requires worship to survive, 2) no divine portfolio to speak of, and 3) a fortress / headquarters that is still floating somewhere in the Abyss – not friendly territory, even for an evil PC.

Under those circumstances, I think a divine campaign would be a battle for survival. It’s suggested at the end of ToB that Cyric and his allies will be coming after you (whether the player is evil or not) because Cyric took over Bhaal’s divine portfolio. The player, as a nascent god, would be facing off against some powerful deities.

Terrible odds? Yes. But that’s great for a story hook.

Initially the player may just be staving off imminent disaster as Cyric and his friends move quickly against the player – several strong deities against a relatively weak one. I could imagine the player being forced to abandon the Throne of Bhaal and going on the run across the planes. The player’s goal would be to gain followers (faith=power), usurp the divine portfolio of another god, and carve out a base of power in the wider multiverse. Your journey could take you to some of the planes we’ve never visited in a CRPG – Mount Celestia, Limbo, and Mechanus, for example – as well as revisiting old favorites like Sigil, though seeing the City of Doors through the eyes of a minor deity could be a very different experience. In a divine-level planar campaign, the player might stir up a civil war on Mount Celestia, conquer a layer of the Abyss, or assemble an adventuring party of divine avatars. Ultimately you’d take back the Throne of Bhaal, smack down Cyric and his friends, and establish a place for yourself among the pantheon of gods.

Mechanically, it seems like a critical resource would be your divine power, which would rise with your number of followers (humans, divines, demons, or whatever), the extent of your notoriety and influence, and the importance of your divine portfolio. (The concept of divine rank could conceivably replace character level.) You’d create avatars to go adventuring in the various planes, so death wouldn’t force a reload. And as you travel the planes, you might learn ways to change or improve the traits of your avatar, or to create multiple avatars, each with different shapes and abilities, useful for different situations.

That’s just some quick brainstorming, but I think a divine-level BG3 could be a lot of fun, and the Bhaalspawn’s story could certainly go on if developers wanted to pursue it.